Did the Sox make a mistake?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from peanutandme. Show peanutandme's posts

    Did the Sox make a mistake?

    I realize that it is easy to second guess or look back or use hindsight, but, looking back to last off season, does it now appear that the Sox could[should] have resigned Adrian Beltre and kept Youkilis at 1st, instead of trading for Gonzalez?

    Again I realize everyone in Sox nation wanted Gonzalez, and we were elated when the Sox made that trade[including myself], but would Beltre have been the better solution?

    It seems that Beltre plays with more passion, is not afraid to get dirty, and was a very good player for the Sox, maybe much like the type of player[s] they had in 04.

    Of course with Beltre's track record of playing hard and having great years in his contract year, did that have any effect on Sox management not wanting to pay him what he wanted?

    Simply, looking back, would we be better off with Beltre, or was the right decision made with regards to trading for Gonzalez?

    Again I will say at the time I was happy with the direction the Sox took. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    In Response to Did the Sox make a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]I realize that it is easy to second guess or look back or use hindsight, but, looking back to last off season, does it now appear that the Sox could[should] have resigned Adrian Beltre and kept Youkilis at 1st, instead of trading for Gonzalez? Again I realize everyone in Sox nation wanted Gonzalez, and we were elated when the Sox made that trade[including myself], but would Beltre have been the better solution? It seems that Beltre plays with more passion, is not afraid to get dirty, and was a very good player for the Sox, maybe much like the type of player[s] they had in 04. Of course with Beltre's track record of playing hard and having great years in his contract year, did that have any effect on Sox management not wanting to pay him what he wanted? Simply, looking back, would we be better off with Beltre, or was the right decision made with regards to trading for Gonzalez? Again I will say at the time I was happy with the direction the Sox took. 
    Posted by peanutandme[/QUOTE]

    peanut, well if Beltre could be a lights out starting pitcher in September than I agree with you.

    Otherwise we are likely in the same predicament or worse if Beltre is here and Gonzalez not here. Keeping in mind that someone (Lowrie?) would be playing 1B with Youk injured now too?

    In other words, it is not the offense that is the problem, it is the starting pitchers!


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_3992292. Show user_3992292's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    Why you bring this up?  For your information, Beltre only played 110 games at 3B this year due to his injury as well he was a DH 11 times this year for a total of 121 games played.  That is 40 games that he missed or did not started this year.  

    Now Youkilis is hurting.  Do not try to blame his latest injury for playing 3b.  He would probably still injure his hip if he was playing at 1B.

    So can you imagine that they both could be on the DL at the same time for the month of September??

    Come on!!  Be careful what you wish for.

    Biggest problem for Boston is that they are way too left handed now due Youkilis  is hurting at the same time they are depleted on their starting rotation.  
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mt200. Show Mt200's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    Gonzalez is 29 and in his prime. They need him forward in the future.

    Beltre is a great 3B and he's average 150 game a year. Yes it would be good to have him here.

    Youkilis could get the Sox something via a trade, maybe pitching, maybe an OF so they wouldn't shelled out $142M for Crawford, who I think is one of the biggest mistake this organization has on their hands.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?


    I realize that it is easy to second guess or look back or use hindsight, but, looking back to last off season, does it now appear that the Sox could[should] have resigned Adrian Beltre and kept Youkilis at 1st, instead of trading for Gonzalez?



    heck peanuts
     
    if we are going to second guess while using hindsight


    lets go with keep beltre & agonz and should have trade youk


    Of course with Beltre's track record of playing hard and having great years in his contract year, did that have any effect on Sox management not wanting to pay him what he wanted?



    FWIW

    I read a story a few yrs ago quoting both henry & theo

    as not believing  the contract yr stuff


    me neither, but it's getting harder & harder to defend
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SFBostonFan. Show SFBostonFan's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]Gonzalez is 29 and in his prime. They need him forward in the future. Beltre is a great 3B and he's average 150 game a year. Yes it would be good to have him here. Youkilis could get the Sox something via a trade, maybe pitching, maybe an OF so they wouldn't shelled out $142M for Crawford, who I think is one of the biggest mistake this organization has on their hands.
    Posted by Mt200[/QUOTE]

    I believe we should have kept Beltre and still gone after Agon. Youkilis could sub at 3rd & 1st and be a DH.  Monday morning quarterback, I know, but I'd love to have kept VMartinez & not gotten Crawford as if we didn't pick up Hunter Pence with the extra cash saved, Drew, McDonald, Reddick and even the departed Cameron would have been better than CC. Heck, I miss Coco Crisp & we'd saved $100 mil !!!
     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kamdog. Show Kamdog's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    Hitting ain't the problem.  The Sox score runs with the best of them.  It has been pitching, and, lately, fielding, that has let the team down.  You can't just look at a few of the recent games where if they had a few key hits, they might have won the game.  Every team has games where they leave runners in scoring position.  I think this year the Yanks set a franchise record in one game for men left on base.

    Pitching and defense is where the Sox fell down.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from brilliantboy. Show brilliantboy's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    Red Sox fans and front office are not the onely ones wondering who made  a mistake last year. I wonder if Gonzalez is realizing that he was the one who made the mistake.  Can the extra millions be worthwhile for him.  Boston fans are jsut a wee bit more passionate than San Diego.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    The mistake was not signing Teixeira in 2008. He was a good fit as a switch hitter for this team. They tried to back Boras into a wall and it blew up in their faces big time. There was no other player on the free agent market that could have helped. Then this team went into panick mode and signed inferior players, Baldelli, Smoltz, Saito, Penney. 
    There was no plan if Teixeira signed elsewhere like he did.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from crono420. Show crono420's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    get rid of old crippled youk and resign beltre and get gonzo. Play Kalesh and Nava all year, don't sign Crawford How many stupid red sox fans does it take to screw in a lightbulb. These were easy moves to make
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    Here is where we would be right now less the mistakes

    Ellsbury, L, CF
    Pedroia, R, 2B
    VMart, S, 1B
    Ortiz, L, DH
    Beltre, R, 3B
    Reddick, L, RF
    Crisp, S, LF
    Salty, S, C
    Scutaro, R, SS
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]Gonzalez is 29 and in his prime. They need him forward in the future. Beltre is a great 3B and he's average 150 game a year. Yes it would be good to have him here. Youkilis could get the Sox something via a trade, maybe pitching, maybe an OF so they wouldn't shelled out $142M for Crawford, who I think is one of the biggest mistake this organization has on their hands.
    Posted by Mt200[/QUOTE]

    I always liked Beltre and believe he is a much better 3rd baseman than Youkilis has been.  I still don't think that keeping him and not acquiring Gonzalez would have helped the Red Sox much.   Not sure what will happen next year, but I don't think that the Red Sox would trade Youkilis.  It is unfortunate that Mike Lowell retired, (he was constantly injured because of surgery), but he was a much better 3rd baseman than Youkilis. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    Adrian Gonzalez has played 157 games this season while Adrian Beltre has played only 122 games. One could argue that Beltre has been more valuable when Beltre plays based on his WAR* of 5.8 to the 6.4 WAR posted by Gonzalez:

    * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs:
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1908&position=1B
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=639&position=3B
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]The mistake was not signing Teixeira in 2008. He was a good fit as a switch hitter for this team. They tried to back Boras into a wall and it blew up in their faces big time. There was no other player on the free agent market that could have helped. Then this team went into panick mode and signed inferior players, Baldelli, Smoltz, Saito, Penney.  There was no plan if Teixeira signed elsewhere like he did.  
    Posted by AL34[/QUOTE]

    Teixeira wanted to sign with the Yankees.  I don't think he would have ever signed with the Red Sox.  
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    AGON made $6.3 million this year and Beltra made $14 million.  Beltre's power numbers were a lit6tle higher, but Agon's average was better.  Agon was coming off shoulder surgery - should be 100% next year.

    Agon made 4 errors at 1st and Beltre made 11 at third.

    Agon is the future. That was a good signing.

    The only mistakes were the combination of Crawford and lackey, particularly Lackey.  Crawford will be OK so that's not a huge mistake, especially since no one knew what to expect from Ellsbury.  Lackey stinks.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from brilliantboy. Show brilliantboy's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    All second guessing must start at JD Drew and end at Dice K.
    Anything else would be trivial in compariosn.

    All teams have their share of bad signings. If a team sings a lot of FAs some wil be duds and others disasters:. Recent disaters include Vernon Wells, Kevin Brown, Jayson Werth. For the Yanks Javier Vazquez was a dud (twice) but Kevin Brown was a disaster.   I would assess the Red sox problems as duds more than disasters with the excpetion of  Dice K (one great year for a 100,000,000.)

    What this year's sox team needs is Scottt Brosius and Paul Oneill. Guys with who kneww how to wini. Maybe they are available over the winter.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    I was one in favor of AGon and I couldn't believe how fortunate we were to get CC  in the same time frame--not bad two great players coming to replace two excellent players leaving.

    Fast Forward to end of season--I'm still pleased we have a player of AGon's calibre but I am shocked and disappointed by the overall poor play of CC in the field and at the plate. He is on the wrong team and the best thing Theo could do is make a trade to a team like Houston---no special deal--they pay 100 % of his salary and we make a fair swap with them or involve a third team some how. I feel badly for him and for RS Nation--I really believe he is unhappy playing in Boston. He could stay here for the duration of his contract and he will not be any better as a Red Sox player IMHO. 

    The atmosphere is not helping him--it's hurting him--too much press--way too much press.

    We need two corner outfielders--pitching depth and potentially a DH.

    Yes CC and Lackey can be traded for full salary and we can take comparable contracts back then learn from our mistakes hopefully. 

    Money Ball Baby...can it work here?


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    Why would anyone pay full salary to two players who have had poor years?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]I was one in favor of AGon and I couldn't believe how fortunate we were to get CC  in the same time frame--not bad two great players coming to replace two excellent players leaving. Fast Forward to end of season--I'm still pleased we have a player of AGon's calibre but I am shocked and disappointed by the overall poor play of CC in the field and at the plate. He is on the wrong team and the best thing Theo could do is make a trade to a team like Houston---no special deal--they pay 100 % of his salary and we make a fair swap with them or involve a third team some how. I feel badly for him and for RS Nation--I really believe he is unhappy playing in Boston. He could stay here for the duration of his contract and he will not be any better as a Red Sox player IMHO.  The atmosphere is not helping him--it's hurting him--too much press--way too much press. We need two corner outfielders--pitching depth and potentially a DH. Yes CC and Lackey can be traded for full salary and we can take comparable contracts back then learn from our mistakes hopefully.  Money Ball Baby...can it work here?
    Posted by MadMc44[/QUOTE]

    I agree with you about Lackey.  It would be great if the Red Sox could somehow manage to trade him next season, although, I am not sure why another team would want him.  He definitely can't handle Boston and the media in this city.  I was very happy when the Red Sox acquired Crawford and still haven't given up on him and believe he is just having a bad year and will have a bounce back year next season. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]AGON made $6.3 million this year and Beltra made $14 million.  Beltre's power numbers were a lit6tle higher, but Agon's average was better.  Agon was coming off shoulder surgery - should be 100% next year. Agon made 4 errors at 1st and Beltre made 11 at third. Agon is the future. That was a good signing. The only mistakes were the combination of Crawford and lackey, particularly Lackey.  Crawford will be OK so that's not a huge mistake, especially since no one knew what to expect from Ellsbury.  Lackey stinks.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]DWL, I agree with much of what you say here but I look at the last two FA signing differently.

    Lackey was paid at market value for his historical perfromance. Now how much of lackey's two year decline is physical only time will tell but this is all known risk with signing FA pitching (Burnett - NY).

    Crawford is another kettle of fish. You just can't find a career .340 OBP hitter whose career high was 19 HR, is LH pull hitter who can't hit LH pitching and can only play one OF position who ever got paid close to $20M a year.

    Ellsbury was a local media-fan base over reach in terms of the panic about him, very typical Boston. Now nobody could forecast his 2011 performance, no doubt. But could you expect a .340 OBP, 40 SB and 11-15 HRs, decent splits against LH pitching and the ability to play at least two of the three OF positions. YES.

    So the answer to me is the RS already had a player in their control who was arguable better than Carl but with projections to hit maybe 5 fewer HRs.

    The signing was an over reach and will be even if Carl performs to his pre RS career averages. If Lackey for the rest of his contract were to perform at his career averages pre RS, he will be worth his salary in that years, while CC would be over paid compareed to comparable FAs by at least 20%.

     
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    The Sox's team ERA in the last month is 5.78. Jon Lester, suppsedly our ace, has lost his last three starts with an ERA of 10.54 in that span. Josh Becektt, allegedly our No. 2, has lost his last two with an ERA of 8.10.

    It's been since Sept. 16 since a Boston starting pitcher won a decision. And the problem is we should have kept Martinez and Beltre?!?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]The Sox's team ERA in the last month is 5.78. Jon Lester, suppsedly our ace, has lost his last three starts with an ERA of 10.54 in that span. Josh Becektt, allegedly our No. 2, has lost his last two with an ERA of 8.10. It's been since Sept. 16 since a Boston starting pitcher won a decision. And the problem is we should have kept Martinez and Beltre?!?
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]

    Be careful about critizing the Golden Boy....According to the most "ardent" Sox fans, the man is money when it counts...........
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    The Red Sox had the best record in MLB between the 2-10 start and September 1st and Andrewmitch was here every day criticizing the players on his favorite day. Give Andrew an A+ for giving the same appearance as a Yankee troll. Perhaps he is one.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?

    In Response to Re: Did the Sox make a mistake?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Did the Sox make a mistake? : Be careful about critizing the Golden Boy....According to the most "ardent" Sox fans, the man is money when it counts...........
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]
    Who's the Golden Boy?
     
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