Dissention? or Disintegration

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Dissention? or Disintegration

    While the board is trying to connect imaginary dots from Tito's farewell speech, I thought I'd try to inject some stability into the rampant, low-class witch-hunt that is plaguing this board.

    Does anybody really think for one moment that dissention caused the collapse?
    Do you have any idea how much dissention occurs in a given clubhouse, with
    25 guys working and living together for a good part of 6 months?

    Ask Reggie Jackson, who has many rings despite playing under a volatile manager and a loudmouth, hands-on owner.
    Talent won those rings, just as injuries that decimated a pitching staff can lose a WC position.

    Sooooooooooooooo, Tito makes allusions about players not backing themselves up...losing control of the same players who's back he's had for 8 years. Now, in one month, suddenly there's all this dissention.
    Funny that we had the same players - only healthier - playing better baseball than any team in the game during the summer. Same team that was headed for a divisional title and 100 wins.

    On top of Buch and Dice going down, the team loses Beckett and Bedard, who was just starting to pitch well. Then the swoon begin. Then all of a sudden there is dissention. What the hell do you think will be born out of a clubhouse panic stricken and mobbed daily by by the press monster and fan expectation? Joy and love?

    Now here's a thought. Maybe, just maybe, the very thing that worked in Tito's favor since 2004 was working against him. Gee, does this happen to other managers?
    Look how many successes the great managers of the game have had...and ask yourself why they ended up managing so many teams.

    Maybe, just maybe, Tito's loyalty to his coaches, for example, blinded him to the realities. Maybe the FO gave into him up to now because his approach had paid off. Now Tito had to face the fact his blind loyalty was just that. He got away with it when he had trusteed personnel like life-long friend Mills and close friend Farrell. 

    Mills leaves and the team seems unprepared out of ST. Lacking fundamentals.
    No way Tito blames DeMarco Hale. Bogar continues to show aggressive
    ineptness but Tito admirably has his back.
    Farrell leaves and pitchers start losing velocity. Experience erratic form. Injuries abound. No way Tito throws Young under the bus. And since the team is sitting pretty in late August, the status quo is allowed to continue.

    Tito made one statement that I think holds more truth than any whacked-out mind trip could post: He said "Maybe after 8 years in one place, (maybe) it's time for a new voice". After abject failure of this proportion, a man has to come to terms with himself. His approach worked for many years. But there were certain things he wasn't willing to change, like hardcore decisions that would have compromised the very core of what endeared him to players and fans alike.

    That's why it's hard for many of us to see him leave. He's a quality person. And the nature of the job eats into that. But perhaps it's better to absorb a blow to the gut...than a steady diet of deterioration.

     
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    I wont disagree with you, but if there is a cancer in the clubhouse, it has to be removed. Ive never ever been a Tito fan, but lets face it he did not play the games. Seems some players just dont get it! One last comment, when you start taking the time to read your own press clippings, you dont have time to focus on the task at hand. To many allstars not enough players!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    UR right Promise. Tito didn't pitch or hit or catch. But he made the decisions as to who did. And he kept coaches that didn't appear to replace their predecessors well.

    Ever see a company with good personnel be run into the ground by inept decision-making? It's often said that a leader is only as good as the people around you. He obviously had proven talent on the field.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    UR right Promise . Tito didn't pitch or hit or catch. But he made the decisions as to who did. And he kept coaches that didn't appear to replace their predecessors well. Ever see a company with good personnel be run into the ground by inept decision-making? It's often said that a leader is only as good as the people around you. He obviously had proven talent on the field.
    Posted by harness


    Like I said, ive never been a Tito fan, but most of those same players are all back next year. And yes I have seen management run a good company into the ground. The Sox will be smarting money wise from not making the playoffs. will be intersting to see what happens.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    EPSTEIN AND TITO ARE BOTH AT FAULT. YOU DON'T BUY
    A GUY WHO HAS PLAYED ON TURF AND DEPENDED ON SPEED
    FOR A GRASS PARK WITH A 380 FT. RF....AND IS A LEFTY !!
    DUHHH !!!! HE'S 28, AND SPEED WILL DIMINISH. HE DIDN'T
    EVEN GET ON BASE TO STEAL ! CC WILL GET WORSE, NOT
    BETTER BECAUSE HIS SPEED WILL DWINDLE AND HE REFUSES
    TO CHANGE HIS WEIRD STANCE.
    I HAVE BEEN WATCHING BASEBALL SINCE I WAS 10 YEARS
    OLD ON A BLACK AND WHITE ADMIRAL TV IN THE 50'S. I HAVE
    LISTENED TO A LOT OF INTERVIEWS AND I HAVE NEVER HEARD
    THAT " GOD DIDN'T WANT US TO WIN" EXCUSE THAT AGON
    GAVE. HOW LAME WAS THAT !! MAYBE IF AGON AND PAPI
    RAN OUT SOME BALLS AND AGON DIDN'T STAND TRANSFIXED
    AT THE PLATE WHEN MO THREW STRIKE 3 PAST HIM, THINGS
    MIGHT HAVE CHANGED. AGON IS A LAZY FAT TOAD, WHO
    IS PATENTLY OUT OF SHAPE, AS BAD AS PAPI.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    I have to agree Harness   Tito is a quality  guy and his leaving   brings a bit  of  sadness   the way it went down,,,  but  it is common in sports  for a voice  to get repetitive.  Torre  found that out  in New York..

    We have at UGA  a football coach,  a  fine, highly principaled  man in Mark Richt. He recruits with the best  brings in   all star talent and somewhere along the line  the message gets redundant..   The team loses  not just to the big rivals ,  but plays poorly against teams  to which the are clearly superior.  Mental mistakes,  lack of effort,  the players  don't achieve.

    Good luck Tito...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    I have to agree Harness   Tito is a quality  guy and his leaving   brings a bit  of  sadness   the way it went down,,,  but  it is common in sports  for a voice  to get repetitive.  Torre  found that out  in New York.. We have at UGA  a football coach,  a  fine, highly principaled  man in Mark Richt. He recruits with the best  brings in   all star talent and somewhere along the line  the message gets redundant..   The team loses  not just to the big rivals ,  but plays poorly against teams  to which the are clearly superior.  Mental mistakes,  lack of effort,  the players  don't achieve. Good luck Tito...
    Posted by jackyldo


    Thanks for the insight. I think there's a fine line between altering approach so as not to become stale...and compromising personal integrity.
    Tito either wouldn't cross it, or simply lost sight of it.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Concur with your thoughts on Tito - good post.  He was a great person but a bit too mild mannered and placating for me.  His easy going manner and decision to always back the players in - at least in public - led to a lot of blame on his shoulders which was the way he wanted it.  It is just time for a change.  I wish him success in whatever avenue he pursues and thank him for his tenure here...he turned almost 100 years around.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from caseycsw. Show caseycsw's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

         Nice post, harness.  As you and others have pointed out, the Bronx Zoo menagerie buzzed on with continual dissension, but the talent they had at that time proved enough to win. Dissension, in and of itself, is not going to make it impossible for a team to be the last one standing in October.  
         I can understand why Bosox fans are furious and upset, especially regarding a few of the latest revelations, but I agree with you that some of the threads have an almost McCarthyite flavor to them.  At this point, a little healing and forgiveness amongst Red Sox fans and posters on this forum would probably be a good thing.....

    Warning: This post was created by a Yankee fan, and may be intended to cause irreparable emotional and psychological harm to any Red Sox fan who might read it.

    "Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living."

    Mary Harris "Mother" Jones (union and community organizer, born 1837 (Ireland) - 1930 (U.S.) )

     
    when the boss comes callin' his take his toll 
    when the boss comes callin' don't you sell your soul 
    when the boss comes callin' we gotta organize 

            - Dropkick Murphys (for the workers of Wisconsin)


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    I wont disagree with you, but if there is a cancer in the clubhouse, it has to be removed. Ive never ever been a Tito fan, but lets face it he did not play the games. Seems some players just dont get it! One last comment, when you start taking the time to read your own press clippings, you dont have time to focus on the task at hand. To many allstars not enough players!
    Posted by promise4you
    I think what Harness is saying is that we are losing proportionality here. It is part of the charm of RS Nation and why Fenway is filled 81 games a year. Bit in the face of the "collapse" it is not serving us well.

    Francona in so many words said after many years of success with this management style, it failed when the group was faced with a crisis this time. He did not feel that changing that style mid-year was the right move and more importantly did not think he was the best guy to that next year.

    Now cancer is an extension of the reaction to the collapse. What really was at issue here wasn't that the team after the body blows it took to the pitching staff didn't make the WS. It wasn't even not appearing in the post season, it was the fact that these guys couldn't find the resolve to win the 4 or 5 games that would have gotten them to the ALDS where they surely would have been dispatched because of the toll of the pitching woes.

    It isn't a cancer. It was some players that took advantage of Francona's management style or took it upon themselves to try and lead and made things worse (Youk?).

    A new manager and new year and the changes that will organically bring will clean those issues out. The players, including some of the problem guys, will reflect on what happened, almost to a man I am sure they now feel they screwed Francona in hindsight.

    Even without more changes, it would change. These guys play for the money at contract time, they games to win because winning is more fun than losing. Because they are competitive. They will be back with something to prove and wiser for having lived the nightmare that was September.

    It wasn't a cancer. Just a bad case of the flu.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    It is always about the players. The GM is responsible for the roster. The roster had ceremonial losers and overpaid players like Crawford who wasn't a fit in the first place.

    Tito leaving has zero impact on future. Theo being effectively fired will immediately remove the problem.

    I would not that the author of this thread was giddy about Crawford. Crawford was a major construction flaw that Theo owns, as he would say in his smarmy way.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    It is always about the players. The GM is responsible for the roster. The roster had ceremonial losers and overpaid players like Crawford who wasn't a fit in the first place. Tito leaving has zero impact on future. Theo being effectively fired will immediately remove the problem. I would not that the author of this thread was giddy about Crawford. Crawford was a major construction flaw that Theo owns, as he would say in his smarmy way.
    Posted by 1958lesspaul


    Blaming Crawford is about as lame as blaming Theo. Theo supplied the skill-set for a ring contender, and that is exactly where the team was headed in the summer, over-coming a 2-10 start w/o Dice/Buch.

    They didn't make the PO's because they were fielding a starting rotation w/o Beckett/Bedard/Buch/Dice in early Sept. and it caught up to them.
    There was adequate talent to over come team flaws until then.
    The collapse brought these flaws into a magnified light.




     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    harness I see only a few peeps participating in another one of your snoozer threads, if you need some advice on how to run a successful thread call me 8675 309.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Good post harness. 

    Tito reminded me of Zen & Phil Jackson.

             Don't ask me why.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    harness I see only a few peeps participating in another one of your snoozer threads, if you need some advice on how to run a successful thread call me 8675 309 .
    Posted by BurritoT


    Is this the witch-hunt pipe-line? Or the KKK Enquiry line?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    Good post harness.  Tito reminded me of Zen & Phil Jackson.          Don't ask me why.
    Posted by moonslav59


    You lost me there.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    harness I see only a few peeps participating in another one of your snoozer threads, if you need some advice on how to run a successful thread call me 8675 309 .
    Posted by BurritoT


    Hey, you participated, even if its just to show off your resistance to more complex thoughts than "Let's get 'em, gang!" 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    harness do you think its wise to play around with photos of lynchings and then bring up KKK? Surely your above all of that.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtDawgSox. Show DirtDawgSox's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Dissention? or Disintegration:
    While the board is trying to connect imaginary dots from Tito's farewell speech, I thought I'd try to inject some stability into the rampant, low-class witch-hunt that is plaguing this board. Does anybody really think for one moment that dissention caused the collapse? Do you have any idea how much dissention occurs in a given clubhouse, with 25 guys working and living together for a good part of 6 months? Ask Reggie Jackson, who has many rings despite playing under a volatile manager and a loudmouth, hands-on owner. Talent won those rings, just as injuries that decimated a pitching staff can lose a WC position. Sooooooooooooooo, Tito makes allusions about players not backing themselves up...losing control of the same players who's back he's had for 8 years. Now, in one month, suddenly there's all this dissention . Funny that we had the same players - only healthier - playing better baseball than any team in the game during the summer. Same team that was headed for a divisional title and 100 wins. On top of Buch and Dice going down, the team loses Beckett and Bedard, who was just starting to pitch well. Then the swoon begin. Then all of a sudden there is dissention. What the hell do you think will be born out of a clubhouse panic stricken and mobbed daily by by the press monster and fan expectation? Joy and love? Now here's a thought. Maybe, just maybe, the very thing that worked in Tito's favor since 2004 was working against him. Gee, does this happen to other managers? Look how many successes the great managers of the game have had...and ask yourself why they ended up managing so many teams. Maybe, just maybe, Tito's loyalty to his coaches, for example, blinded him to the realities. Maybe the FO gave into him up to now because his approach had paid off. Now Tito had to face the fact his blind loyalty was just that. He got away with it when he had trusteed personnel like life-long friend Mills and close friend Farrell.  Mills leaves and the team seems unprepared out of ST. Lacking fundamentals. No way Tito blames DeMarco Hale. Bogar continues to show aggressive ineptness but Tito admirably has his back. Farrell leaves and pitchers start losing velocity. Experience erratic form. Injuries abound. No way Tito throws Young under the bus. And since the team is sitting pretty in late August, the status quo is allowed to continue. Tito made one statement that I think holds more truth than any whacked-out mind trip could post: He said " Maybe after 8 years in one place, (maybe) it's time for a new voice". After abject failure of this proportion, a man has to come to terms with himself. His approach worked for many years. But there were certain things he wasn't willing to change, like hardcore decisions that would have compromised the very core of what endeared him to players and fans alike. That's why it's hard for many of us to see him leave. He's a quality person. And the nature of the job eats into that. But perhaps it's better to absorb a blow to the gut...than a steady diet of deterioration.  
    Posted by harness
    very impressive piece of writing and I could not agree more. Tito was dependent on Mills who went above and beyond. He left. Farrell comes on and he and Tito were good friends, worked well together. He leaves. Basically Tito is now on his own without that firm support of either Mills or Farrell. What worked before does not work in these times. He stubbornly would not change. He said this himself. That is how the detoriaton started.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    harness do you think its wise to play around with photos of lynchings and then bring up KKK? Surely your above all of that.
    Posted by BurritoT


    Hey, I was the one who uploaded the photo and deserves the credit.  If I had any photoshop talent, I would have featured some Red Sox players within the nooses and some depiction of you as the hangman. 

    Oh, in case I went a little too far with the KKK stuff, here's another more palatable depiction of the same mentality since I know how you love these youtube links that stir your orneriness.

    http://youtu.be/SYkbqzWVHZI
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    harness do you think its wise to play around with photos of lynchings and then bring up KKK? Surely your above all of that.
    Posted by BurritoT


    Well, judging by some fine baseball posts of UR's the last few weeks, I was beginning to think you were above a witch-hunt thread.
    Depicting it graphically is a great way to send out a reflective message.

    Two years ago, when RedSox nation wanted Papi's head for a two-month slump, I posted a verbal scenario so powerful, I didn't dare post it on this board, but on a blog comment. It rankled quite a few, but the truth resonated regardless.

    I don't like witch-hunts. That's what Pike does here and both you and I and Rojas are dead against what he does.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    In Response to Dissention? or Disintegration : very impressive piece of writing and I could not agree more. Tito was dependent on Mills who went above and beyond. He left. Farrell comes on and he and Tito were good friends, worked well together. He leaves. Basically Tito is now on his own without that firm support of either Mills or Farrell. What worked before does not work in these times.He stubbornly would not change. He said this himself. That is how the detoriaton started.
    Posted by DirtDawgSox


    Further proof of the present coaching "talent" level as opposed to the past:
    Two members of the FO went on to become GM's (Hoyer/Burns).
    Two members of Tito's staff went on to be managers (Mills/Farrell)...and he'll possibly make it three.

    I'm willing to bet the same won't hold true with the present company.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration




    Not a witch hunt to me - its just a forum, I want to know what happens inside and if someone tells me I would be interested. I have not spoken to my long time friend in two years who still works in Ft. Myers as Minor League Equipment Manager, and he speaks with the Clubhouse guys in Fenway regulary.  Being here in Asia we just don't pick up the phone like we used to - we were best friends for 15 years and now a total disconnect since I moved and he got married.

    Maybe you saw his dog on NESN  Laughing



     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Harness,

      I can't agree more ... players are supposed to play and when they don't the greatest miracle workers become pedestrian.

      I made the point about Reggie somewhere else.  He not only was under Billy and the Boss but he fought back and cause a lot of heck himself ...  our Yanqui friends like to ask us where chemistry is and point to those 70's teams of theirs.  Lots of fireworks in the dugout and on the field.


      
      There have been several calls on the basepaths thar cost games, IMO.  Both sending and NOT sending have cost.  If the few games I watch is a real sample, then these base coaches need to either be replaced or schooled better.

      The thought of DeMarco Hale as manager, after some of the base calls I'have seen him make in years past, makes me go cold with fear....
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : I think what Harness is saying is that we are losing proportionality here. It is part of the charm of RS Nation and why Fenway is filled 81 games a year. Bit in the face of the "collapse" it is not serving us well. Francona in so many words said after many years of success with this management style, it failed when the group was faced with a crisis this time. He did not feel that changing that style mid-year was the right move and more importantly did not think he was the best guy to that next year. Now cancer is an extension of the reaction to the collapse. What really was at issue here wasn't that the team after the body blows it took to the pitching staff didn't make the WS. It wasn't even not appearing in the post season, it was the fact that these guys couldn't find the resolve to win the 4 or 5 games that would have gotten them to the ALDS where they surely would have been dispatched because of the toll of the pitching woes. It isn't a cancer. It was some players that took advantage of Francona's management style or took it upon themselves to try and lead and made things worse (Youk?). A new manager and new year and the changes that will organically bring will clean those issues out. The players, including some of the problem guys, will reflect on what happened, almost to a man I am sure they now feel they screwed Francona in hindsight. Even without more changes, it would change. These guys play for the money at contract time, they games to win because winning is more fun than losing. Because they are competitive. They will be back with something to prove and wiser for having lived the nightmare that was September. It wasn't a cancer. Just a bad case of the flu.
    Posted by fivekatz


    Hi Katz, I was not disagreeing with Harness. I was interjecting my thoughts and opinions. Maybe it is just the flu, but one does have to wonder.
     
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