Dissention? or Disintegration

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Moon...not attacking you, but I always have a problem with the "if this guy or these guys had been healthy we would have won X amount more games theory" First off, are you assuming that those players were healthy and all the other teams had to deal with the same injuries they incurred during the season? Or are you creating a scenario where NO injuries occured to ANY players. And then, while it might be probable that those injured players would have performed well, it is certainly not an automatic...for all we know Clay could have gone 0-9 with a 7+ ERA after the break had he been healthy (I'm not saying that is what I think would happen, but the point is it's ALL speculation) Durability is just as important as talent when it comes to athletes who are expected to perform over a whole season. Pavel Bure is one of the 5 best hockey players I have ever seen, but if I was starting in a team he wouldn't be in my top 100 guys (inhis prime) to build a team around, due to his lack of durability. Every team has injuries..and the Sox certainly had to handle their share, but great teams rise to the occasion. This team didn't. Everything else is just water cooler talk (you could make the argument that these threads ARE water cooler talk :0) Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk or attack you, and I hope I didn't come off that way, as I find your posts well thought out and always insightful whether I agree or disagree,
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]Moon...not attacking you, but I always have a problem with the "if this guy or these guys had been healthy we would have won X amount more games theory" First off, are you assuming that those players were healthy and all the other teams had to deal with the same injuries they incurred during the season? Or are you creating a scenario where NO injuries occured to ANY players. And then, while it might be probable that those injured players would have performed well, it is certainly not an automatic...for all we know Clay could have gone 0-9 with a 7+ ERA after the break had he been healthy (I'm not saying that is what I think would happen, but the point is it's ALL speculation) Durability is just as important as talent when it comes to athletes who are expected to perform over a whole season. Pavel Bure is one of the 5 best hockey players I have ever seen, but if I was starting in a team he wouldn't be in my top 100 guys (inhis prime) to build a team around, due to his lack of durability. Every team has injuries..and the Sox certainly had to handle their share, but great teams rise to the occasion. This team didn't. Everything else is just water cooler talk (you could make the argument that these threads ARE water cooler talk :0) Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk or attack you, and I hope I didn't come off that way, as I find your posts well thought out and always insightful whether I agree or disagree,
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]

    I totally get your point, but when I projected 100 wins if we remain healthy, it's not saying I am sure we will be healthy. I had expected a bettewer health record than 2010, but am not sure we got that. I know other teams had injuries. Our injuries were early enough in the season for Theo to do something about them, but all he did was go and get what? A guy known for missing time with injuries.

    Next time I make my projections, I will count on several injuries, and say something like this: "We may do better than this if we have less than the normal amount of injuries.)



     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Time4Theo2Go. Show Time4Theo2Go's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : Had it not been for... If if if Look who's making the excuses now? The Rays are still very much alive. Why is it you can't give another human being any credit? Will UR cyberspace preservation become unhinged otherwise?
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Harness!

    Army strong.
    Poor Moonbat still playing Theo Chick sabermetrics.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    A couple of thoughts. Every sports projection certainly is dependent on health. Teams suffer key injuries or too many to any area of their depth chart all bets are off.

    As for the 1977 NYY, I don't dissention was almost the right word as a serial dislike for Jackson by Martin and Martin had Munson fully enrolled because of Reggie's bravado when he came to NY as the self-proclaimed "straw the stirred the drink".

    The way Martin pulled Jackson from that game, the timing of it and such and then also got in Reggie's grille provoked that shouting match. Typically if a manager pulls a guy on national TV in the middle of inning, the action is loud enough and that manager just lets the guy he just "called out" sit at the end of the bench and stew in it.

    But Martin's issues went pretty deep which is why he then also felt compelled to verbally call Reggie out. Martin in many ways was a loon. For whatever reason, the things that the A's and NYY had going on in the 70's did not seem to deter them.

    But you aren't going to find many more examples like those 70's teams as time moved forward and certainly won't in the age of the blogosphere. Not in this era where in 72 hours we go from an alleged report of a incident where a few unscheduled pitchers went to clubhouse early and had a beer, to specific pitchers being named, assumed guilty, the incident not just assumed but now magnified to be a regular event.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    I just wonder what effect all this has had on our young players who were here this year. They may just look and say, "so this is what the bigs are all about". Not encouraging to say the least.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    I can tell you this, from my own limited experience: There is always gonna be conflicts among teammates. ALWAYS. Some of it will be aired. Some of it will be just below the surface. Some of it is deeply-rooted and hid.

    Players coming up through the farm system know well of that which I speak.
    And no matter the level of competition, if things go bad, the inevitable will occur.
    To shape or re-shape the 2012 squad based on basic human nature is nonsense.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]Not a witch hunt to me - its just a forum, I want to know what happens inside and if someone tells me I would be interested. I have not spoken to my long time friend in two years who still works in Ft. Myers as Minor League Equipment Manager, and he speaks with the Clubhouse guys in Fenway regulary.  Being here in Asia we just don't pick up the phone like we used to - we were best friends for 15 years and now a total disconnect since I moved and he got married. Maybe you saw his dog on NESN   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c045nYjAjTk
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    I really think Stelmach and Brewzer would have limited access, although Brewzer would likely be closed-mouthed...or he might lose those juicy steak bones.

    Fact is, if you got the inside track with the 25 participants, you'd likely get 25 different answers.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : And the Sox didn't collapse because of dissention. The pitching went down. The alleged dissention was the result of it, not the cause .
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    agreed.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : I totally get your point, but when I projected 100 wins if we remain healthy, it's not saying I am sure we will be healthy. I had expected a bettewer health record than 2010, but am not sure we got that. I know other teams had injuries. Our injuries were early enough in the season for Theo to do something about them, but all he did was go and get what? A guy known for missing time with injuries. Next time I make my projections, I will count on several injuries, and say something like this: "We may do better than this if we have less than the normal amount of injuries.)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Thank you for not taking my post as an attack.... I think your posts are well-thought out and interesting, even on the rare occasion I disagree, You are the anti Softy/Napalm/"Less?"Paul...so thanx for being cool about me challenging a point you made. :0)... I look forward to your take on the upcoming "hot stove" :0)
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : I don't know if was dissension; more like the "25 cabs" phrase I've seen alot on this forum lately. Also, my allusion to the trailer I posted was the "lab" scene; you probably figured that.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    The whole "25 cabs" crap is the Boston Media being lazy. Like Youk said about McMullen or who ever her name is... that she's in the clubhouse 3 games a year and pretends she's got all the dirt. Me? I'm failing to see how even some beers in the clubhouse on your off days ( pretty much just the pitching staff because it couldn't be anyone else ) amounts to this epic collapse. So that boils down to really just 4-5 cabs. And taking a cab when you've had too many beers is being responsible isn't it? Christ, I heard the '2004 team smoked more than an old Buick (marajuanna that is). It doesn't add up.

    What does add up are the injuries and the newer coaches surrounding Tito and Tito's philosophy not getting it done in the end and too many bad performances at the worse possible times.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Not to mention that of all the major team sports...baseball is the one where chemistry is the LEAST important. The late 70's Yankees hated each other and won 2 in a row. The Big Red MAchine had all kinds of clubhouse problems and won 2 in a row. The Early 70's A's (Reggie is a recurring theme here hmm?) had MAJOR clubhouse problems...3 in a row. Baseball is an INDIVIDUAL game. 25 cabs is fine, as long as you don't allow your dislike for teammates to make not try to succeed in your INDIVIDUAL moments...it really doesn't matter. (That being said...being a really close team can certainly help, especially if you are a good but not great team...the '04 Sox fit that bill perfectly, they used their comradarie to make them better than the sum of their parts). It's not like hockey, where you NEED your teammate to have your back, or football where you BELONG to one side of the ball or the other. Baseball & (to a lesser extent) Pro basketball are about as individual as a team sport can be.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]Not to mention that of all the major team sports...baseball is the one where chemistry is the LEAST important. The late 70's Yankees hated each other and won 2 in a row. The Big Red MAchine had all kinds of clubhouse problems and won 2 in a row. The Early 70's A's (Reggie is a recurring theme here hmm?) had MAJOR clubhouse problems...3 in a row. Baseball is an INDIVIDUAL game. 25 cabs is fine, as long as you don't allow your dislike for teammates to make not try to succeed in your INDIVIDUAL moments...it really doesn't matter. (That being said...being a really close team can certainly help, especially if you are a good but not great team...the '04 Sox fit that bill perfectly, they used their comradarie to make them better than the sum of their parts). It's not like hockey, where you NEED your teammate to have your back, or football where you BELONG to one side of the ball or the other. Baseball & (to a lesser extent) Pro basketball are about as individual as a team sport can be.
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]

    Yes, baseball is an individual game, but team chemistry can be seen in momentum shifts. Hitting and defense can be contagious. It's really what makes the game so great, because the intangibles are so illusive.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    I can sum the collaspe up with just this:
    Too many "I"s and not enough "We"s.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    not an individauls game thus "sacrafice" and "save" as in you may sacrafice yourslef to help the team and you may have to save some teammates azz.  Team game all the way.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Time4Theo2Go. Show Time4Theo2Go's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : Harness! Army strong. Poor Moonbat still playing Theo Chick sabermetrics.
    Posted by Time4Theo2Go[/QUOTE]
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tc25. Show tc25's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]I have to agree Harness   Tito is a quality  guy and his leaving   brings a bit  of  sadness   the way it went down,,,  but  it is common in sports  for a voice  to get repetitive.  Torre  found that out  in New York.. We have at UGA  a football coach,  a  fine, highly principaled  man in Mark Richt. He recruits with the best  brings in   all star talent and somewhere along the line  the message gets redundant..   The team loses  not just to the big rivals ,  but plays poorly against teams  to which the are clearly superior.  Mental mistakes,  lack of effort,  the players  don't achieve. Good luck Tito...
    Posted by jackyldo[/QUOTE]
    Mark Richt, if this guy brings in all star talent you really have a problem  because the Dwags stink, hell Tito's better than Mark Richt, go tigers
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]not an individauls game thus "sacrafice" and "save" as in you may sacrafice yourslef to help the team and you may have to save some teammates azz.  Team game all the way.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    That's an excellent perception.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]I can sum the collaspe up with just this: Too many "I"s and not enough "We"s.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    But how do we explain all the ER's?

    How does a team have ERA's of
    3.58 in June
    3.70 in July
    3.82 in August
    5.84 in September?



     
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : But how do we explain all the ER's? How does a team have ERA's of 3.58 in June 3.70 in July 3.82 in August 5.84 in September?  
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Because the "WE's" went down to injury. And the "I's", like Miller and Weiland, showed their AAA form.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Miller was solid on the road in 2011. Wastefield was a ceremonial tour that was embarrassing and team costly.

    Wastefield made it clear that "I want to come back and break record for Red Sox wins". Wastefield should not be offered more than a minor league contract.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]Miller was solid on the road in 2011. Wastefield was a ceremonial tour that was embarrassing and team costly. Wastefield made it clear that "I want to come back and break record for Red Sox wins". Wastefield should not be offered more than a minor league contract.
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    Yes, being away from Fenway helped Miller.
    Unfortunately, he has to pitch half his games in Boston.
    Now you know why Wake - a flyball pitcher - was compromised by the same park during much of his career.

    2011: Miller's Fenway ERA was almost twice that of Wake's (9.00/5.17)
    and the same with WHIP (2.424/1.278)

    My comment was in regards to September's swoon.
    Miller in Sept:   11.70 ERA  2.500 WHIP  Downright embarrassing.
    Wake in Sept: 5.25 ERA  1.414 WHIP

    And yet it's Wake you want to destroy. Care to talk about Weiland now?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Miller was demoted before September. And a compressed few September starts does not change the fact that Millers was solid on the road.

    Wastefield remains a laughing stock. At 45 years old, he will remain a welcome joke to MLB teams who get to go T-Ball off Timmy.

    Wastefield is manifest proof that farm pitching development is a joke. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]Miller was demoted before September. And a compressed few September starts does not change the fact that Millers was solid on the road.Wastefield remains a laughing stock. At 45 years old, he will remain a welcome joke to MLB teams who get to go T-Ball off Timmy. Wastefield is manifest proof that farm pitching development is a joke. 
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    Nor does it change the fact Miller was horrid at home.
    Wake was clearly better in Sept. In fact, no starting pitcher had a better ERA than Wake's Sept. 5.25.

    Wake was an insurance spot starter. He pitched 6 or more frames 13 of 23 starts.
    Miller, who was brought  up as a  starter, went the same distance in only 3 of 12 starts. He was demoted for a reason.

    I'll ask you again: Do you now care to discuss Weiland? Isn't he UR other pet project?

    Wake's cost and the fact he was durable last year make's it a no-brainer to bring him back.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : Nor does it change the fact Miller was horrid at home. Wake was clearly better in Sept. In fact, no starting pitcher had a better ERA than Wake's Sept. 5.25. Wake was an insurance spot starter. He pitched 6 or more frames 13 of 23 starts . Miller, who was brought   up as a   starter , went the same distance in only 3 of 12 starts. He was demoted for a reason. I'll ask you again: Do you now care to discuss Weiland? Isn't he UR other pet project? Wake's cost and the fact he was durable last year make's it a no-brainer to bring him back.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Wake's #s, while not good, was still BIG LEAGUE; those other guys weren't.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : Nor does it change the fact Miller was horrid at home. Wake was clearly better in Sept. In fact, no starting pitcher had a better ERA than Wake's Sept. 5.25. Wake was an insurance spot starter. He pitched 6 or more frames 13 of 23 starts . Miller, who was brought   up as a   starter , went the same distance in only 3 of 12 starts. He was demoted for a reason. I'll ask you again: Do you now care to discuss Weiland? Isn't he UR other pet project? Wake's cost and the fact he was durable last year make's it a no-brainer to bring him back.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!

    Pitching is certainly our BIG PROBLEM!  Right after LEADERSHIP!  ?????

    BUT!  No offense Harness!  The stat geeks can't stop harping on the WAKE thing!

    As I said on another thread, you guys miss the forest for the seedlings!!!!

    If pitching is one of our biggest problems????  WAKE is NOT THE ANSWER!

    I have loved the guy for the past almost decade!  I take no back seat to that!  BUT!  His time has come & gone!

    LET IT GO!!!!!!  Please shut the hell up about it!  BORING!

    p.s.  LEADERSHIP???  Who fell down on that job?????   I LOVE TITO TOO, but.....
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share