Dissention? or Disintegration

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Harness; great thread and followup posts.

    SY, the difference is, I think, those Reggie teams (Bronx Zoo, Finley-Handlebar A's) dissension issues were front & center in the limelight, almost with a positive spin, if you will, while the RS team dynamics is coming out now, plus there was a hint of lethargy on the team (Ells, AGon, Pedroia & Papelbon are notable exceptions) that smacked of "All we have to do to win is show up ".
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonOfLilith. Show SonOfLilith's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    This team was so hyped in spring training and the players it all up. I remember Josh Beckett saying how the team could win 100 games, and Ortiz and Agon Fawning over themselves about the aquisitions. And there's nothing wrong with that but look how flat this team came out in april - (and that's the only thing i can fault Francona for).
    Yes they rebounded like a good team should but they could'nt afford another slump or in this case a meltdown. The 9 game lead bred false security among them all and it showed in their recent play. Wakefield got chance after chance to get 200 wins which was the first of many issues that haunted the red sox.
    But no problem,right? There's still a nine game advantage and you have a mind set that stinks of entitlement.
    Base running mistakes,errors,mediocre pithching,throw in questionable decisions,a left fielder who played scared - but we are going to the playoffs.
    Throwing The "Best Team Ever" tag at them last spring and basically through out the season was the worst thing that happened to boston........ 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]While the board is trying to connect imaginary dots from Tito's farewell speech, I thought I'd try to inject some stability into the rampant, low-class witch-hunt that is plaguing this board. Does anybody really think for one moment that dissention caused the collapse? Do you have any idea how much dissention occurs in a given clubhouse, with 25 guys working and living together for a good part of 6 months? Ask Reggie Jackson, who has many rings despite playing under a volatile manager and a loudmouth, hands-on owner. Talent won those rings, just as injuries that decimated a pitching staff can lose a WC position. Sooooooooooooooo, Tito makes allusions about players not backing themselves up...losing control of the same players who's back he's had for 8 years. Now, in one month, suddenly there's all this dissention . Funny that we had the same players - only healthier - playing better baseball than any team in the game during the summer. Same team that was headed for a divisional title and 100 wins. On top of Buch and Dice going down, the team loses Beckett and Bedard, who was just starting to pitch well. Then the swoon begin. Then all of a sudden there is dissention. What the hell do you think will be born out of a clubhouse panic stricken and mobbed daily by by the press monster and fan expectation? Joy and love? Now here's a thought. Maybe, just maybe, the very thing that worked in Tito's favor since 2004 was working against him. Gee, does this happen to other managers? Look how many successes the great managers of the game have had...and ask yourself why they ended up managing so many teams. Maybe, just maybe, Tito's loyalty to his coaches, for example, blinded him to the realities. Maybe the FO gave into him up to now because his approach had paid off. Now Tito had to face the fact his blind loyalty was just that. He got away with it when he had trusteed personnel like life-long friend Mills and close friend Farrell.  Mills leaves and the team seems unprepared out of ST. Lacking fundamentals. No way Tito blames DeMarco Hale. Bogar continues to show aggressive ineptness but Tito admirably has his back. Farrell leaves and pitchers start losing velocity. Experience erratic form. Injuries abound. No way Tito throws Young under the bus. And since the team is sitting pretty in late August, the status quo is allowed to continue. Tito made one statement that I think holds more truth than any whacked-out mind trip could post: He said " Maybe after 8 years in one place, (maybe) it's time for a new voice". After abject failure of this proportion, a man has to come to terms with himself. His approach worked for many years. But there were certain things he wasn't willing to change, like hardcore decisions that would have compromised the very core of what endeared him to players and fans alike. That's why it's hard for many of us to see him leave. He's a quality person. And the nature of the job eats into that. But perhaps it's better to absorb a blow to the gut...than a steady diet of deterioration.  
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    We may never know the real reasons or situations with certain players that led to our teams collapse, or Terry leaving.  My opinion?  Part Tito for being soft with players until they began to take advantage.  Also Theo for making bad moves and players not being in great condition to play the game.

    The fact is we still have a great team but horrible pitching so whoever comes in to manage needs to find a strong 4th, 5th & 6th starter first and foremost.

    Josh, in my opinion should be packaged for another top starter if we choose to let Tek go.  Hes half the pitcher without Tek which it strange.  Lester  needs to get into better shape and Clay healthy.  Lackey, needs to be sent as far away fro Boston as possible and the Sox need to sign or trade for a solid #4.  Aceves could easily be our 5th starter if Theo could actually find a real bull pen to support to help.   Jenks, Wheeler, Albers and a mix a very mediocre guys hurt us all year.  RF is another issue along with working Lavarnway into the mix at catching.

    A lot of work but a great foundation to begin will.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    I'm not blaming everything on injuries, but this team could have won about 100 games if Buch and Dice had been healthy.

    Starts by our top 5 starters this year:

    1) Beckett  30
    2) Lester    31
    3) Buch       14
    4) Dice-K      7
    5) Lackey    28

    That equal 110 out of 162 expected starts from 1-5.

    We got 52 starts from...
    Wake   23 (Team 12-11)
    Miller   12 (Team  9-3)
    Bedard  8  (Team 4-4)
    Weiland 5 (Team 1-4)
    Aceves  4  (Team 1-3)
    Total team record: 27-25

    The record of our original 4/5 starters (Dice-K and Lackey): 18-17
    Dice-K (4-3)
    Lackey (14-14)

    The others:
    Beckett (20-10)
    Lester   (16-15)
    Buchholtz (9-5)

    Funny to think that our team did about the same with #6-10 starters (27-25) than our #2, #4 and#5 starters (34-32).

    Give Buch 31 starts and he replaces Bedard/Weiland/Aceves 6-11 team record with maybe 11-6, and that puts us at 95 wins. Give Dice-K 28-30 starts and let Wake pitch just 12-15 starts for lackey and a couple here and there for others, and that probably wins another 5. Remember, Wake did pretty well until he was burnt out. After becomming a regular starter on May 22nd, the team went 10-4 in the next 14 starts.

    Wishing for no injuries is too much to ask, I know, and that is why I think we need to add talent to our staff this winter. We need to plan for injuries. 
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]I'm not blaming everything on injuries, but this team could have won about 100 games if Buch and Dice had been healthy.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE] It is fair IMO to blame the fact that the RS weren't a team that was going to go deep into the post season on injury. And to some extent contigency planning can only go so far. Health is random and to some extent luck.

    But what probably concerned the organization so much is how this team reacted to the fate that the injuries assigned them. To me the angst on Yawkey Way is about 2 to 6 games the team should have/could have won in September, not that the team in the face of the injury problems did not win those 100 games it could have if the rotation had held up.

    Just my take.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Theo has always been one that gets enamored with numbers and overlooks the makeup / character of a player which contributes to good team chemistry.


    Renteria  -    Fell apart under heavy media scrutiny.
    Lugo  -   Bashed his wife's head into the windshield of his car in an argument.
    Lackey  -   Same mound demeanor in L.A. rolling his eyes in disgust with teammates.
    Crawford  -   Always a quiet reserved man.    Overwhelmed by crowds and media.
    Gonzalez  -   Whined and complained in San Diego also.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    I still maintain that after two disasterous seasons wrecked by injuries - the Sox need to take a serious look at the training staff and their methods and the medical staff - something is not right there.  There is not a starting pitcher on the team who doesn't have a house on DL Avenue.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Theo supplied the skill-set for a ring contender, and that is exactly where the team was headed in the summer, over-coming a 2-10 start w/o Dice/Buch.

    They didn't make the PO's because they were fielding a starting rotation w/o Beckett/Bedard/Buch/Dice in early Sept. and it caught up to them.
    There was adequate talent to over come team flaws until then.
    The collapse brought these flaws into a magnified light

    DiceK was on the active roster for the 2-10 start. DiceK pitched back to back 1 hitters and was on active roster until the middle of May.
     
    Harness, you are an idiot who believes something comes from nothing.

    Theo supplied Crawford to a team that needed a young star Rh slugging OFer.

    Theo supplied Tim Wastefield for a ceremonial tour.

    Theo supplied Jason Varitek.

    Wastefield and Varitek were zeros in September, old and washed up.

    You are an excuse maker. The Red Sox were a team that has a pitiful approach to pitching and pitching development for depth.

    Epstein subtraction will eliminate the cause of 2011 fiasco.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Nice thread h,  I see Delusion as the main culprit to the epic collapse.  Way to many weak bats in the lineup and no Ace in the pen.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]Theo has always been one that gets enamored with numbers and overlooks the makeup / character of a player which contributes to good team chemistry. Renteria  -    Fell apart under heavy media scrutiny. Lugo  -   Bashed his wife's head into the windshield of his car in an argument. Lackey  -   Same mound demeanor in L.A. rolling his eyes in disgust with teammates. Crawford  -   Always a quiet reserved man.    Overwhelmed by crowds and media. Gonzalez  -   Whined and complained in San Diego also.
    Posted by OnDeckCircle[/QUOTE]
    Interesting thought on Agon, I however was not aware of this, could you post your resources please? Not your opinion, but facts please.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    You are an excuse maker...

    What do you call your excuses for why TB didn't "go away"?

    Still waiting on your answer on how many wins you thought the Sox would get this year.

    Crickets...
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Time4Theo2Go. Show Time4Theo2Go's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : Blaming Crawford is about as lame as blaming Theo. Theo supplied the skill-set for a ring contender, and that is exactly where the team was headed in the summer, over-coming a 2-10 start w/o Dice/Buch. They didn't make the PO's because they were fielding a starting rotation w/o Beckett/Bedard/Buch/Dice in early Sept. and it caught up to them. There was adequate talent to over come team flaws until then. The collapse brought these flaws into a magnified light.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Crawford is as lame as Theo.
    InEpstein went after the wrong player...it should have been BJ Upton or Longoria, not Crawford.

    Then again Theo has a streak of stupidity that ran the Red Sox right out of contention again this season.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]Theo supplied the skill-set for a ring contender , and that is exactly where the team was headed in the summer, over-coming a 2-10 start w/o Dice/Buch . They didn't make the PO's because they were fielding a starting rotation w/o Beckett/Bedard/Buch/Dice in early Sept. and it caught up to them. There was adequate talent to over come team flaws until then . The collapse brought these flaws into a magnified light DiceK was on the active roster for the 2-10 start. DiceK pitched back to back 1 hitters and was on active roster until the middle of May.   Harness, you are an idiot who believes something comes from nothing. Theo supplied Crawford to a team that needed a young star Rh slugging OFer. Theo supplied Tim Wastefield for a ceremonial tour. Theo supplied Jason Varitek. Wastefield and Varitek were zeros in September, old and washed up. You are an excuse maker. The Red Sox were a team that has a pitiful approach to pitching and pitching development for depth. Epstein subtraction will eliminate the cause of 2011 fiasco.
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    Stop trying to cover UR own tracks, and using Theo as UR scapeggoat.
    He put together the best team in the A. L. until late summer, when Beckett/Bedard went down, compounding the SR issues. Wake wasn't supposed to be in the rotation all year, so his Sept. starts were no more surprising than seeing Nava or Kalish tank last year. Neither was counted on to cut it over an elongated period of time. Tek got hurt in Sept.

    Dice pitched all of 11.3 frames after April, allowing 11 runs. Hardly a help in overcoming the fact the team was 11-15 in April. You projected a win range that fell short. Same as last year. You said it was predicated on unforeseen injuries. Since now you say injuries are no excuse, there was no excuse for you coming up short.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Just a hunch; Theo's going to take the Cub job, and this winter. Lugo, Drew, Dice, Lackey & Crawford has taken some of the bloom off the rose. He's been taking Cashman lessons, and Cashman's been taking his (except for Aceves); it's almost like they switched bodies; remember the movie Abbott & Costello meets Frankenstein? or Men In Black?



     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : Stop trying to cover UR own tracks, and using Theo as UR scapeggoat. He put together the best team in the A. L. until late summer, when Beckett/Bedard went down, compounding the SR issues. Wake wasn't supposed to be in the rotation all year, so his Sept. starts were no more surprising than seeing Nava or Kalish tank last year. Neither was counted on to cut it over an elongated period of time. Tek got hurt in Sept. Dice pitched all of 11.3 frames after April, allowing 11 runs. Hardly a help in overcoming the fact the team was 11-15 in April. You projected a win range that fell short. Same as last year. You said it was predicated on unforeseen injuries. Since now you say injuries are no excuse , there was no excuse for you coming up short.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    He won't give us his number. He denies he ever gave one, and won't say now what he thought they would win.

    If he says 90, then he will be admitting that he was wrong about TB "backing into the playoffs" and "going away" early. If he thinks Theo constructed a bad team or a 90 win team, then TB's playoff berth was plausible.

    If he says he thought they'd win 94-96 wins (as I remember), then why isn't he blaming Tito for doing worse with the team he knew they had. The Team Theo gave him. The team he thought would win 94-96, but did not.

    Either way, he will be exposed once again, and that is why for the first time in board history, softy is remaining silent.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]Just a hunch; Theo's going to take the Cub job, and this winter. Lugo, Drew, Dice, Lackey & Crawford has taken some of the bloom off the rose. He's been taking Cashman lessons, and Cashman's been taking his (except for Aceves); it's almost like they switched bodies; remember the movie Abbott & Costello meets Frankenstein? or Men In Black? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg5N9FJc__Q
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    That was good. Brought back memories.
    Theo, to Softy's chagrin, isn't gonna leave amidst this mess.
    He will stay and straighten it out. And then Softone will leave...for parts unknown (you can fill in the youtube).

    You made interesting point about Reggie Jackson earlier. When the T.V. camera captures Martin and Jackson going at it, it makes me wonder if they weren't afraid to show the dissent, or perhaps there was so damn much of it, it boiled to the top.
    Martin wsa volitile. And Jackson had that ego.

    Either way, it didn't prevent those teams from being champions.
    And the Sox didn't collapse because of dissention. The pitching went down. The alleged dissention was the result of it, not the cause.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration : That was good. Brought back memories. Theo, to Softy's chagrin, isn't gonna leave amidst this mess. He will stay and straighten it out. And then Softone will leave...for parts unknown (you can fill in the youtube). You made interesting point about Reggie Jackson earlier. When the T.V. camera captures Martin and Jackson going at it, it makes me wonder if they weren't afraid to show the dissent, or perhaps there was so damn much of it, it boiled to the top. Martin wsa volitile. And Jackson had that ego. Either way, it didn't prevent those teams from being champions. And the Sox didn't collapse because of dissention. The pitching went down. The alleged dissention was the result of it, not the cause .
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]


    I don't know if was dissension; more like the "25 cabs" phrase I've seen alot on this forum lately.

    Also, my allusion to the trailer I posted was the "lab" scene; you probably figured that.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jader. Show jader's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]I'm not blaming everything on injuries, but this team could have won about 100 games if Buch and Dice had been healthy. Starts by our top 5 starters this year: 1) Beckett  30 2) Lester    31 3) Buch       14 4) Dice-K      7 5) Lackey    28 That equal 110 out of 162 expected starts from 1-5. We got 52 starts from... Wake   23 (Team 12-11) Miller   12 (Team  9-3) Bedard  8  (Team 4-4) Weiland 5 (Team 1-4) Aceves  4  (Team 1-3) Total team record: 27-25 The record of our original 4/5 starters (Dice-K and Lackey): 18-17 Dice-K (4-3) Lackey (14-14) The others: Beckett (20-10) Lester   (16-15) Buchholtz (9-5) Funny to think that our team did about the same with #6-10 starters (27-25) than our #2, #4 and#5 starters (34-32). Give Buch 31 starts and he replaces Bedard/Weiland/Aceves 6-11 team record with maybe 11-6, and that puts us at 95 wins. Give Dice-K 28-30 starts and let Wake pitch just 12-15 starts for lackey and a couple here and there for others, and that probably wins another 5. Remember, Wake did pretty well until he was burnt out. After becomming a regular starter on May 22nd, the team went 10-4 in the next 14 starts. Wishing for no injuries is too much to ask, I know, and that is why I think we need to add talent to our staff this winter. We need to plan for injuries. 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jader. Show jader's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Can't you write like a normal human being and not scream in BOLD?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    91 wins is going away. Red Sox collapse was historic. I did not predict a total wins for Red Sox in 2011, noting construction flaws, Crawford debacle contract, and Wastefield ceremonial tour during 9 games up in September.

    The story will never be about what inferior 2011 Rays team backed into, it will be historic Red Sox September collapse that lead to Tito being immediately fired and hopefully the end of Epstein, Varitek and Wastefield. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]91 wins is going away. Red Sox collapse was historic. I did not predict a total wins for Red Sox in 2011, noting construction flaws, Crawford debacle contract, and Wastefield ceremonial tour during 9 games up in September. The story will never be about what inferior 2011 Rays team backed into, it will be historic Red Sox September collapse that lead to Tito being immediately fired and hopefully the end of Epstein, Varitek and Wastefield. 
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    Stories are told to children at bed-time.
    The Rays are in the PO's. That's the fact.
    Win total is only relevant to positional standing.
    Moon pegged Rays on the bullseye.
    You missed the board completely.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]This team was so hyped in spring training and the players it all up. I remember Josh Beckett saying how the team could win 100 games, and Ortiz and Agon Fawning over themselves about the aquisitions. And there's nothing wrong with that but look how flat this team came out in april - (and that's the only thing i can fault Francona for). Yes they rebounded like a good team should but they could'nt afford another slump or in this case a meltdown. The 9 game lead bred false security among them all and it showed in their recent play. Wakefield got chance after chance to get 200 wins which was the first of many issues that haunted the red sox. But no problem,right? There's still a nine game advantage and you have a mind set that stinks of entitlement. Base running mistakes,errors,mediocre pithching,throw in questionable decisions,a left fielder who played scared - but we are going to the playoffs. Throwing The "Best Team Ever" tag at them last spring and basically through out the season was the worst thing that happened to boston........ 
    Posted by SonOfLilith[/QUOTE]

    This is what I mean my disintegration. Yes, the pressure affected performance.
    But the regression of fundamentals which led to lax base-running and blunders has been present for some time. One might find a drop-off when Mills left.
    The team had the talent level to mask much of it...until the injuries took main stage.

    Pitching injuries and decreased velocity/consistency of form
    became far more prevalent under Young's watch.
    Again, it was magnified with the decimated SR in September.

    I just don't buy into the alleged dissention as being a prominent contributor.
    How does one expect players to react when they are on a sinking ship?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    Moonslow missed the board on the Yankees and Red Sox positional standing, entirely.

    Had it not been for Yankees using AAA pitching for most of last 3 v Rays, an offense that should bring about rules chang on roster expansion use, Rays would have ended up with the 88 or 89 wins I projected as probability for 2010. As it was, they and there 91 wins do not belong in playoffs but for Yankee fraud and Red Sox record collapse. History shows that, as well as Red Sox historic collapse.

    I would think the fragile Red Sox fan support for Wakefield and Varitek for roster spots is a silver lining in the collapse.

    If it means the end of Epstein (Cubs cant be that stupid;) Wastefield and Varitek, the Red Sox will finally take a step forward from 3 year debacle. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Dissention? or Disintegration

    In Response to Re: Dissention? or Disintegration:
    [QUOTE]Moonslow missed the board on the Yankees and Red Sox positional standing, entirely. Had it not been for Yankees using AAA pitching for most of last 3 v Rays,an offense that should bring about rules chang on roster expansion use, Rays would have ended up with the 88 or 89 wins I projected as probability for 2010. As it was, they and there 91 wins do not belong in playoffs but for Yankee fraud and Red Sox record collapse. History shows that, as well as Red Sox historic collapse. I would think the fragile Red Sox fan support for Wakefield and Varitek for roster spots is a silver lining in the collapse. If it means the end of Epstein (Cubs cant be that stupid;) Wastefield and Varitek, the Red Sox will finally take a step forward from 3 year debacle. 
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    Had it not been for...
    If if if

    Look who's making the excuses now?


    The Rays are still very much alive.
    Why is it you can't give another human being any credit?
    Will UR cyberspace preservation become unhinged otherwise?
     
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