Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    How can so many people complain about Beckett losing velocity on his pitches and ONLY pitching 93 mph when the starting pitcher for the WS game one only hit 86 mph and he beats Verlander? I mean WTH? How does that happen? Am I missing something?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    Theres a difference between a pitcher and a thrower.

    Beckett was a thrower his whole career relying on a 95+MPH fb. Now he needs to learn to be apitcher.

    Once you lose velocity and there isnt a ton of separation between pitches as far as velocity, you need to become more cerebral and precise with your pitches. Maddox was brilliant at this.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    So, I guess Zito is a pitcher. I just never heard of a ML pitcher in such a huge situation only piching 86 mph. He must be amazing at pitch placement. Hey, kudos to him. I've only read about speed being the most important thing.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to wallyisdead's comment:

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:

    How can so many people complain about Beckett losing velocity on his pitches and ONLY pitching 93 mph when the starting pitcher for the WS game one only hit 86 mph and he beats Verlander? I mean WTH? How does that happen? Am I missing something?




     

     

    You miss quite a bit.




    Do I know you? Or are you just another bounced out individual from the other Sox site that was turned into a dual Sox/Yankee site because of Zac and his pals?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from MikeNagy. Show MikeNagy's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to kimsaysthis's comment:

    So, I guess Zito is a pitcher. I just never heard of a ML pitcher in such a huge situation only piching 86 mph. He must be amazing at pitch placement. Hey, kudos to him. I've only read about speed being the most important thing.




    Here a good article on Zito from earlier in the year, Kim. He's been relying on a slider and a cutter he's added recently:

    http://www.sfgiantsnirvana.com/heck-barry-zito-throwing/2483

    The disturbing thing with Beckett's loss of velocity, is that he was relying on blowing fastballs by people, and couldn't do that anymore. Zito's been pretty bad since the Giants signed him, and it looks like he's finally made some adjustments that are making him effective again.

    Bard throws 100 miles an hour and hasn't been very effective. Control, location,  and movement are just as important as speed, if not more. Pitchers do what works for them and have to adjust when it doesn't work. That's where Beckett is at now. Adjust and become effective again, or hang it up.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to kimsaysthis's comment:

    So, I guess Zito is a pitcher. I just never heard of a ML pitcher in such a huge situation only piching 86 mph. He must be amazing at pitch placement. Hey, kudos to him. I've only read about speed being the most important thing.




    Well.. Wakefiled had 75MPH fastball..

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to seannybboi's comment:

    In response to kimsaysthis's comment:

    So, I guess Zito is a pitcher. I just never heard of a ML pitcher in such a huge situation only piching 86 mph. He must be amazing at pitch placement. Hey, kudos to him. I've only read about speed being the most important thing.




    Well.. Wakefiled had 75MPH fastball..


    a blistering fastball!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:

    So, I guess Zito is a pitcher. I just never heard of a ML pitcher in such a huge situation only piching 86 mph. He must be amazing at pitch placement. Hey, kudos to him. I've only read about speed being the most important thing.




    Well, Zito hasnt been the best "pitcher" in his career. But yeah, someone like him has to rely on being almost perfect with the placement of his pitch and his pitch selection. Also, throwing a lot of junk pitches effectively, like Bronson Arroyo does, can extend a pitchers career as well...

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to seannybboi's comment:

    In response to kimsaysthis's comment:

    So, I guess Zito is a pitcher. I just never heard of a ML pitcher in such a huge situation only piching 86 mph. He must be amazing at pitch placement. Hey, kudos to him. I've only read about speed being the most important thing.




    Well.. Wakefiled had 75MPH fastball..




    was it that fast?

     
  11. This post has been removed.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to pinstripezac's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:



    Well, Zito hasnt been the best "pitcher" in his career. But yeah, someone like him has to rely on being almost perfect with the placement of his pitch and his pitch selection. Also, throwing a lot of junk pitches effectively, like Bronson Arroyo does, can extend a pitchers career as well...




    officially 777  I believe  it's

    righthander - junk baller

    lefthander - crafty




    lol...I believe you are correct zac...my bad :)

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Theres a difference between a pitcher and a thrower.

    Beckett was a thrower his whole career relying on a 95+MPH fb. Now he needs to learn to be apitcher.

    Once you lose velocity and there isnt a ton of separation between pitches as far as velocity, you need to become more cerebral and precise with your pitches. Maddox was brilliant at this.



    Southpaw, I like you, but that isnt fair.  Beckett (when in Dr Jeckyll mode) has good control, uses the entire strike zone, and has a snapping 12-6 curve that he mixes in well.

    Dont forget that Beckett has had multiple cy young caliber seasons (even 2011 was a cy young caliber season prior to his collapse).  When at his best, Beckett is a absolutely a pitcher and probably even worth of an "ace" tag.

    We will probably never see that Beckett again, but lets not forget that Beckett was extremely effective for most of his RS career.  Its a bummer his red sox career ended on such a bum note.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Theres a difference between a pitcher and a thrower.

    Beckett was a thrower his whole career relying on a 95+MPH fb. Now he needs to learn to be apitcher.

    Once you lose velocity and there isnt a ton of separation between pitches as far as velocity, you need to become more cerebral and precise with your pitches. Maddox was brilliant at this.



    Southpaw, I like you, but that isnt fair.  Beckett (when in Dr Jeckyll mode) has good control, uses the entire strike zone, and has a snapping 12-6 curve that he mixes in well.

    Dont forget that Beckett has had multiple cy young caliber seasons (even 2011 was a cy young caliber season prior to his collapse).  When at his best, Beckett is a absolutely a pitcher and probably even worth of an "ace" tag.

    We will probably never see that Beckett again, but lets not forget that Beckett was extremely effective for most of his RS career.  Its a bummer his red sox career ended on such a bum note.




    you can credit that to the media.  put personal feeling aside i think we can all agree the media did overblow the beckett "scandals". i don't blame him for his actions regarding them either.


    the 07 championship would not have happened without him. he dominated that ALCS against the indians and i whole heartedly believe without him we would have went down 4-1 in that series.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    1-I'm not sure what Beckett has to do with Zito.

    2-I wouldn't make too big a deal of one game by Zito.  He's been pretty much a #4 SP for SF, that one game notwithstanding.

    3-The reason why people were concerned by Beckett's loss of velocity is the same as any decline of any physical skill.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to MikeNagy's comment:

    In response to kimsaysthis's comment:

    So, I guess Zito is a pitcher. I just never heard of a ML pitcher in such a huge situation only piching 86 mph. He must be amazing at pitch placement. Hey, kudos to him. I've only read about speed being the most important thing.




    Here a good article on Zito from earlier in the year, Kim. He's been relying on a slider and a cutter he's added recently:

    http://www.sfgiantsnirvana.com/heck-barry-zito-throwing/2483

    The disturbing thing with Beckett's loss of velocity, is that he was relying on blowing fastballs by people, and couldn't do that anymore. Zito's been pretty bad since the Giants signed him, and it looks like he's finally made some adjustments that are making him effective again.

    Bard throws 100 miles an hour and hasn't been very effective. Control, location,  and movement are just as important as speed, if not more. Pitchers do what works for them and have to adjust when it doesn't work. That's where Beckett is at now. Adjust and become effective again, or hang it up.




    It's still amazing to me that one pitcher can be a bum with a 93 mph fastball, and another can beat Verlander with an 86 mph fastball.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to seannybboi's comment:

    In response to kimsaysthis's comment:

    So, I guess Zito is a pitcher. I just never heard of a ML pitcher in such a huge situation only piching 86 mph. He must be amazing at pitch placement. Hey, kudos to him. I've only read about speed being the most important thing.




    Well.. Wakefiled had 75MPH fastball..




    I'm aware of that, and he beat King Felix. But he's a specialty pitcher with his knuckleball. Apples and oranges.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Theres a difference between a pitcher and a thrower.

    Beckett was a thrower his whole career relying on a 95+MPH fb. Now he needs to learn to be apitcher.

    Once you lose velocity and there isnt a ton of separation between pitches as far as velocity, you need to become more cerebral and precise with your pitches. Maddox was brilliant at this.



    Southpaw, I like you, but that isnt fair.  Beckett (when in Dr Jeckyll mode) has good control, uses the entire strike zone, and has a snapping 12-6 curve that he mixes in well.

    Dont forget that Beckett has had multiple cy young caliber seasons (even 2011 was a cy young caliber season prior to his collapse).  When at his best, Beckett is a absolutely a pitcher and probably even worth of an "ace" tag.

    We will probably never see that Beckett again, but lets not forget that Beckett was extremely effective for most of his RS career.  Its a bummer his red sox career ended on such a bum note.




    Exactly.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Theres a difference between a pitcher and a thrower.

    Beckett was a thrower his whole career relying on a 95+MPH fb. Now he needs to learn to be apitcher.

    Once you lose velocity and there isnt a ton of separation between pitches as far as velocity, you need to become more cerebral and precise with your pitches. Maddox was brilliant at this.



    Southpaw, I like you, but that isnt fair.  Beckett (when in Dr Jeckyll mode) has good control, uses the entire strike zone, and has a snapping 12-6 curve that he mixes in well.

    Dont forget that Beckett has had multiple cy young caliber seasons (even 2011 was a cy young caliber season prior to his collapse).  When at his best, Beckett is a absolutely a pitcher and probably even worth of an "ace" tag.

    We will probably never see that Beckett again, but lets not forget that Beckett was extremely effective for most of his RS career.  Its a bummer his red sox career ended on such a bum note.




    you can credit that to the media.  put personal feeling aside i think we can all agree the media did overblow the beckett "scandals". i don't blame him for his actions regarding them either.


    the 07 championship would not have happened without him. he dominated that ALCS against the indians and i whole heartedly believe without him we would have went down 4-1 in that series.




    Nice use of the word "scandals". Really shows how ridiculous the whole thing actually was. I'm beginning to think when the Sox don't like someone, they allow the press to just rain all kinds of crap on them no matter how ridiculous.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    1-I'm not sure what Beckett has to do with Zito.

    2-I wouldn't make too big a deal of one game by Zito.  He's been pretty much a #4 SP for SF, that one game notwithstanding.

    3-The reason why people were concerned by Beckett's loss of velocity is the same as any decline of any physical skill.



    1. Speed of pitches being compared, especially in such a high profile situation. I'm not sure the Sox would give the ball for the first game of the World Series to a guy who had an 86 mph fastball, unless velocity isn't as important as people make it out to be.

    2. See 1.

    3. "Concerned" wouldn't be the word I would use. I think it was way more abusive to be just called "concerned".

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Do we need more 86 mph pitchers?

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Theres a difference between a pitcher and a thrower.

    Beckett was a thrower his whole career relying on a 95+MPH fb. Now he needs to learn to be apitcher.

    Once you lose velocity and there isnt a ton of separation between pitches as far as velocity, you need to become more cerebral and precise with your pitches. Maddox was brilliant at this.



    Southpaw, I like you, but that isnt fair.  Beckett (when in Dr Jeckyll mode) has good control, uses the entire strike zone, and has a snapping 12-6 curve that he mixes in well.

    Dont forget that Beckett has had multiple cy young caliber seasons (even 2011 was a cy young caliber season prior to his collapse).  When at his best, Beckett is a absolutely a pitcher and probably even worth of an "ace" tag.

    We will probably never see that Beckett again, but lets not forget that Beckett was extremely effective for most of his RS career.  Its a bummer his red sox career ended on such a bum note.

    Hey  Drew,

    I was using Beckett as an example because of his approach when he first arrived in MLB. He relied on and could just blow people away with his 98MPH fb. Thats not to say he couldnt do anything else. Not at all. Just the fact that having a 98MPH fb that can blow batters away and then having to totally change your style due to loss of velocity was the point.

    Beckett has started to do this, but isnt quite there yet IMO. He could dial it up a bit in 2011. Not as much as 2007 but enough for good seperation of pitches. Now at 89-92 he needs to adjust some more to be really effective.

    I guess the whole point wasnt to discredit beckett, He has good secondary pitches when hes on his game. He just needs to be on his game a lot more if he wants to be consistantly effective. I guess the point was that pitchers who rely heavily on, and can throw a ball 96+MPH will eventually have to become a Barry Zito or Greg Maddox type pitcher if/when the velocity isnt there anymore. Its a different style and there is an adjustment period once they accept the fact that they are not fireballers anymore.

    I agree that without beckett we might not be WSC in 2007. I think hes a fantastic pitcher and could still have more good years in him. He will have to adjust his style though due to the loss of velocity. I think some here are taking my comment about him the wrong way...

     
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