Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from NOLASox89. Show NOLASox89's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In Response to Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?:
    [QUOTE]Well, the Yankees didn't go that route last year since they decided to do some dumpster diving and came up with Colon and Garcia. Perhaps they grew tired of paying the 40 percent luxury tax. If you were a Yankee fan, would you had been upset with that strategy? It turns out that his moves were a stroke of genius. Hats off to a GM for doing it the hard way instead of telling the owner to run off to the bank.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    The Yankees had to go with Colon and Garcia becaue they were already something like $30+M (per Cot's) over the luxury tax line even before adding in the money for player benefits.  So, in a sense, the owners had already gone to the bank and just didn't/couldn't go for more.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    It wouldn't be a bad idea to blow past the threshhold if they are good deals.  If Madson goes for $8M, Beltran for $8M, and Floyd for maybe $8M, then it would hurt us in the long-run.  If you are talking about overpaying players to blow past, then you just continually build up tomorrow's problems.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from NOLASox89. Show NOLASox89's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    First, it's not my money.  Second, the Red Sox are making so much money it's like they have a license to print it.  Third, I don't think it's really all that big a deal if they have to pay $4-8M in taxes if they go over by $10-20M.  Again, not my money.  Compared to what they're raking in, it doesn't seem like much.  Maybe they shouldn't concede a $30M difference in payroll to the Yanks.  It's not like people treat them better as a consequence.  I also think they're killing Cherington (and Valentine) if they make him field a team with no starting pitching depth and a shaky bullpen the year after the collapse.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

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    In Response to Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?:
    [QUOTE]First, it's not my money.  Second, the Red Sox are making so much money it's like they have a license to print it.  Third, I don't think it's really all that big a deal if they have to pay $4-8M in taxes if they go over by $10-20M.  Again, not my money.  Compared to what they're raking in, it doesn't seem like much.  Maybe they shouldn't concede a $30M difference in payroll to the Yanks.  It's not like people treat them better as a consequence.  I also think they're killing Cherington (and Valentine) if they make him field a team with no starting pitching depth and a shaky bullpen the year after the collapse.
    Posted by NOLASox89[/QUOTE]

    Yankee revenue was $427 mil. in 2010. Red Sox revenues were $272 mil. Yankees. Yanks had 40% more revenue or $155 mil. more than Boston. That is why they can afford a payroll that exceeds $204 mil. and can afford to go after Darvish this winter. By the way, the Red Sox had an operating deficit in 2010. They are not as wealthy as your agenda wishes them to be.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    There is no reason any team should have to spend that much to be competitive. 

    I can live with the Sox having budget limits.   What I cannot live with is a team crying they are at their payroll ceiling, and then picking up a $6mill option on Marco Scutaro...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SOXN6. Show SOXN6's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    Another 3rd place finish! No starting pitching, right fielder and no bullpen/closer. This team is worse of then the one that went 7-20.  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In response to "Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender? : Yankee revenue was $427 mil. in 2010. Red Sox revenues were $272 mil. Yankees. Yanks had 40% more revenue or $155 mil. more than Boston. That is why they can afford a payroll that exceeds $204 mil. and can afford to go after Darvish this winter. By the way, the Red Sox had an operating deficit in 2010. They are not as wealthy as your agenda wishes them to be. Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE] You are not as paid attnetion to as your agenda wishes you to be.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    Scutaro played a decent SS and hit .295. Is 6 mil. exhorbitant? Why not bridge to Inglesias? Is Jeter a better defensive SS than Scutaro? What was his BA in 2011?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In response to "Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender? : Well said Examiner. I have never seen or read about a fanbase of a large market team that is so concerned over payroll and the Luxury Tax. If Boston decided to drop payroll the 85 million annually, like the Mets are trying to do, then there should be an uproar. My personal opinion is that once you have invested (luxury tax cap) that much money, you want to at least give yourself a fighting chance come the post season. And if that means investing another 20 million & taking a hit on taxes, so be it. But if Sox ownership wants to stay exactly at that threshold, then that is there choice. The Red Sox as constructed right now are still one of the top 5 teams in the AL and that gives them a fighting chance in September. Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE] Agreed. No sense in doing it half. Either go for it or have a fire sale.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In response to "Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?": [QUOTE]Another 3rd place finish! No starting pitching, right fielder and no bullpen/closer. This team is worse of then the one that went 7-20.   Posted by SOXN6[/QUOTE] In it's current state, yes, it is. Hopefully that will change.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In response to "Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?": [QUOTE]There is no reason any team should have to spend that much to be competitive.  I can live with the Sox having budget limits.   What I cannot live with is a team crying they are at their payroll ceiling, and then picking up a $6mill option on Marco Scutaro... Posted by notin[/QUOTE] Really? I'd say Scutaro is a comparative bargain at 6M.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In Response to Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?:
    [QUOTE]Scutaro played a decent SS and hit .295. Is 6 mil. exhorbitant? Why not bridge to Inglesias? Is Jeter a better defensive SS than Scutaro? What was his BA in 2011?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]
    Marco Scutaro might not be great shakes, but the 36-year-old shortstop was valued at 2.9 WAR last season while 34-year-old shortstop Rafael Furcal, who was valued at 0.5 WAR, is expected to sign a two-year, $14 million contract with the defending World Series champion St. Louis Cardinals.

    http://twitter.com/#!/jonmorosi/status/145586240190816256
     
    * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs:
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=88&position=SS
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1555&position=2B/SS
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In response to "Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender? : Marco Scutaro might not be great shakes, but the 36-year-old shortstop was valued at 2.9 WAR last season while 34-year-old shortstop Rafael Furcal, who was valued at 0.5 WAR, is expected to sign a two-year, $14 million contract with the defending World Series champion St. Louis Cardinals. http://twitter.com/#!/jonmorosi/status/145586240190816256   * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs : http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=88&position=SS http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1555&position=2B/SS Posted by hill55[/QUOTE] Careful hill, disagreeing or correcting pike is a full time job, and it takes almost the entire forum to keep up with it. You'll end up on his black list like the rest of us!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

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    In Response to Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?": Careful hill, disagreeing or correcting pike is a full time job, and it takes almost the entire forum to keep up with it. You'll end up on his black list like the rest of us!
    Posted by TheExaminer[/QUOTE]
    I agree with him on this narrow issue, but your warning is well-received.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    They were not at their payroll ceiling when they picked up the option on Scutaro ( who is worth every penny of $6 mil. per year). Their hands were tied by the arbitrator on giving Papi his 2012 salary.
     
    I am convinced that the whiners would be here en mass if they didn't sign Papi since those types come here to whine no matter what the FO does - that is their identity since it is in their genetic DNA. Whine, whine, whine. Go read the Since Yaz thread of this morning. It says it all about the deteriorating state of the forum. Too many whiners, fair-weather fans, entitled little kids who go into tantrums, and oldtimers who don't think before they post.

    You can explain ad nauseum the financial implications of exceeding the luxury tax threshhold and most won't take the minutes to read it and comprehend it. The forum is in a very sad state. It is a shame.

    Not everyone who comes here is stupid, many come here merely to annoy others.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In response to "Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender? : I agree with him on this narrow issue, but your warning is well-received. Posted by hill55[/QUOTE] LOL
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    If the Red Sox had not offered David Ortiz arbitration, the front office would have been criticized by fans convinced that Ortiz would decline the offer of arbitration (leading to two compensation draft picks).

    It was a no-win situation.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In response to "Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?": [QUOTE]They were not at their payroll ceiling when they picked up the option on Scutaro ( who is worth every penny of $6 mil. per year). Their hands were tied by the arbitrator on giving Papi his 2012 salary.   I am convinced that the whiners would be here en mass if they didn't sign Papi since those types come here to whine no matter what the FO does - that is their identity since it is in their genetic DNA. Whine, whine, whine. Go read the Since Yaz thread of this morning. It says it all about the deteriorating state of the forum. Too many whiners, fair-weather fans, entitled little kids who go into tantrums, and oldtimers who don't think before they post. You can explain ad nauseum the financial implications of exceeding the luxury tax threshhold and most won't take the minutes to read it and comprehend it. The forum is in a very sad state. It is a shame. Not everyone who comes here is stupid, many come here merely to annoy others. Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE] LOL X2 and just how does the sad state of the forum intersect with you changing names, profiles and identities every whip stitch like a little coward? What does one have to do with the other?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In response to "Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?": [QUOTE]If the Red Sox had not offered David Ortiz arbitration, the front office would have been criticized by fans convinced that Ortiz would decline the offer of arbitration (leading to two compensation draft picks). It was a no-win situation. Posted by hill55[/QUOTE] I saw pros and cons either way. If you sign him, there's a chance he won't live up to it, and you're also perpetually hamstrung in NL parks. If you don't sign him, what player or rotation of players will produce the .300/30/100 ish year he had last season? Not an easy call, but I don't mind having him back.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    In Response to Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?:
    [QUOTE]Scutaro played a decent SS and hit .295. Is 6 mil. exhorbitant? Why not bridge to Inglesias? Is Jeter a better defensive SS than Scutaro? What was his BA in 2011?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Because SS was probably the deepest position on the team.  And if the budget was that close, then they probably should have prioritized spending a little bit better...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    Because SS was probably the deepest position on the team.  And if the budget was that close, then they probably should have prioritized spending a little bit better..

    One thing to consider is that had we not taken Scutty's option, we still would have had to pay $1.5M, so the cost differential was $4.5M. Now, 4.5M may have gotten us Bedard or Wang or maybe Chen. I say it would have been worth it. I know I am in the minority when I say that Iggy at SS batting .200 is close to the same as Scutty batting .280 due to the hits taken away from the opps. Having Aviles and Lowrie would provide for good replacemnts if Iggy bombed and also allow for late game PH'ing for Iggy.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

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    In Response to Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series contender?:
    [QUOTE] Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports  
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]


    yes i agree and posted here after the season though with logic and reasoning why
     
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    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    Scutaro at 6 million IS a bargain.  It was not a mistake in calculating the salary ceiling by re-upping him.  He is such a bargain, in fact, that he is quite a valuable trade chip.  Lowrie/Aviles and Iglesias can fill the SS adequately enough, IMO.

    As for getting rid of Jenks to free up salary.  I do not see it happening.  Jenks is one option to fill the closer or 8th inning role.  And the team needs about 3 more options.  And Jenks is not a relative bargain and valuable trade chip.  Once he has proven healthy then he may bring something valuable in return, but then why would you trade him when he is what you need most?

    As for RF, I do not see the need others see.  Now that Papi is back in the lineup, the Sox need a RH bat for the bench, but RF can rest in the hands of Kalish and Reddick.  Their production can hardly be worse than last year, when the Sox had one of the very best offenses by almost any measure.

    So, do they need to blow past the threshold?  Not in my opinion.  But should they?  To get Darvish and Madson?  I'd like to see that.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    Matthew Kory:

    There are also ways to decrease the team's payroll number without trading any players. Two examples come to mind. Negotiating a deal with David Oritz for a slightly lower AAV over two years would reduce his annual "cap hit." Marc talked about the second on last week's podcast. Because of his injury and subsequent Tommy John surgery, a clause in John Lackey's contract kicks in adding a sixth season at the major league minimum salary ($500K). This turns his five year, $82.5 million contract into a six year, $83 million deal. That lowers the average annual value from $16.5 million to $13.8 million. Of course, $33 million of that $83 million has already been spent so that could decrease the AAV on the remaining deal to $12.5 million. In any case, making that official in some capacity could give the Red Sox some additional spending room.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Do you agree with Ken Rosenthal-blow past the luxury tax threshold, if that's what it takes to field a World Series conte...

    Though I have not seen anything to confirm this opinion, I would bet that the NYY forums are having the same discussions about "blowing past the luxury tax threshold."

    Even NYY has salary issues.

    Not sure what to think, but I suspect that this may be one of those watershed years when FOs of NYY and BOS realize that they have reached the limits of their resources and patience.

    There may also be some real, long-lasting doubt as to whether long-term contracts serve a good purpose for the club.  It is easy, to be sure, to give out those contracts in the spirit of "irrational exuberance" (thank you, Alan Greenspan!).

    But as the stock market has shown us, this exuberance leads to a bubble, which eventually bursts.  And then there is a period of risk-aversion, followed by a stagnant market.

    For BOS and NYY, I believe that's what we have - risk aversion and genuine concern over whether the resources are well spent. Waiting for the bubble to burst, we are, and when it bursts it won't be pretty.

    To that end, I believe there are no better examples of irrational exuberance than the contracts given to John Lackey and Carl Crawford.  Together, they accounted for roughly $31 mil in salary obligations against the 2011 payroll - which is reallyis really about 3/4 of the entire TBR payroll (about $42 mil) for 2011. 

    It is so easy to get caught up in the mad emotional rush of the auction experience. I have been in a few auctions myself - overpaid by a lot for a Ted Williams baseball card about 15 years ago at an auction in Poughkeepsie, NY - underpaid by a lot for some gorgeous oriental rugs in an auction in Chatham, NY a few weeks ago.

    It's a disorienting environment and it's easy to overspend, and then swear not to do it again with the fiscal hangover that follows. Kind of like New Year's Eve.

    Which is a way of saying that the FO is going to give us fans a dose of tough love and say the free-spending days are not over, but won't come back for awhile.

    After all, TBR made the playoffs last year with their miniscule payroll and BOS did not.  John Henry must be thinking about the return he is getting on his investment, when someone else's hedge fund is outperforming his with fewer assets under management (AUM).  Heck, if it were my hedge fund, I would be nervous too.  John Corzine, he ain't.

    I will not get into the argument as to whether Lackey or Crawford is worth all that money based on 2011 performance.

    But I will tell you that you should never go to a rug auction with your girlfriend and any cash in your pocket. Just insane.

    Here endeth the lesson.





     
     

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