do you still like the trade?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    Never say never.

    As nearly everyone know, I have been a huge Iggy supporter and wanted him starting since the beginning of 2012. That being said, I do not think Ben sees Iggy as anything more than a platoon IF'er. That's why he signed Drew. That's why he sent Iggy to AAA despite his hot start when Drew came off the DL. That's why he traded his "utility IF'er" for a pitcher under control until the end of 2014 who has numbers that place him in the top 30 starters in MLB since 2012.

    Next year, even if we had Iggy, Ben & John were going to go with Boggy at SS and Middy at 3B with Cecchini breathing down Middy's back. Iggy was going to be the back-up next year- like it or not. We can argue the merits of that plan vs, say, Iggy at SS, Boggy at 3B, and Middy at 1B, but the fact is, the chances Iggy would have been our starting SS next year were slim. With that fact in mind, the trade was totally understandable and justified.

    Sox4ever

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:

    In response to albertct23's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    So why is it only Iglesias can be the subject of positive speculation.

     

    "Could become a good hitter?"  Sound familiar?

    Red Sox are 1-3 in games Peavy has started.

    You can say he pitched well enough to win with runsupport, but the bottom line is, in the 3 losses he pitched 5 innings, 6 innings and 5 2/3 innings.

    This tells me what I already knew. We traded a promising young player for an average pitcher , who is basically a 6 inning pitcher. Considering the bullpen woes, do you really want to turn a lead over to this crew for 4 innings any more than you have to?

    "Here we are trapped in the amber of the moment. There is no why.- Kurt Vonnegut

     

     




     

     

    How far from the average now days is it for a starter to only go six innings?  I am pleased with what Peavey has brought us. He could be 3-1 in his four starts.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    ...and I "could be" the king of the world. I "could be" a billionaire. I "could be" God.

     

    [/QUOTE]


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Never say never.

    As nearly everyone know, I have been a huge Iggy supporter and wanted him starting since the beginning of 2012. That being said, I do not think Ben sees Iggy as anything more than a platoon IF'er. That's why he signed Drew. That's why he sent Iggy to AAA despite his hot start when Drew came off the DL. That's why he traded his "utility IF'er" for a pitcher under control until the end of 2014 who has numbers that place him in the top 30 starters in MLB since 2012.

    Next year, even if we had Iggy, Ben & John were going to go with Boggy at SS and Middy at 3B with Cecchini breathing down Middy's back. Iggy was going to be the back-up next year- like it or not. We can argue the merits of that plan vs, say, Iggy at SS, Boggy at 3B, and Middy at 1B, but the fact is, the chances Iggy would have been our starting SS next year were slim. With that fact in mind, the trade was totally understandable and justified.

    Sox4ever

     

     

    If there’s one thing Moon and I agree on it’s that Iggy never was going to be the SS for the Red Sox.  It’s obvious now that the deck was stacked against him from the beginning. 

    The FO played the fans all along with Iggy.  Someone in the FO committed to XBo as the SS of the future some time ago and that wasn’t going to change.  They implied to us fans that Drew was a one-year stopgap because we already had "the SS of the future".  After seeing Iggy, a slick fielding but light hitting SS in the minors it wasn't even a bit of a stretch to think that Iglasis WAS the SS of the future - so we bought into it.  And the team began to win… more than anyone expected. 

    I now firmly believe they brought Iggy up initially so he could prove to the fans that he couldn't hit so the FO could justify trading him, a making room for their “Golden Boy”, - but Iggy double-crossed them and hit! So suddenly the FO had a problem on their hands.  They had a SS who could play and whom the fans liked but he wasn’t the one the FO wanted for the future.  The solution of course was easy.  Trade him.  Trade him for whatever the team needs for this unexpected stretch drive to make room for XBo.  So they did. Problem solved. 

    You can say what you want to about his .500 average being unsustainable (true DUH!) or his BAPIP being high or that he’ll come back to his norm (both true), but the fact remains the guy was getting on base and playing great defense while he was doing it – often at not his best position.  Then when Iggy started to come back to his offensive norm the hue and cry went up, “See!  We told you he couldn’t hit!”  So rather than allow him to come back to his norm and see where it would be, they traded him – ostensibly and partly in their quest for the playoffs this year. 

     

    If this trade works and Peavy is what they hope he’ll be, so much the better, but it’s obvious now that the goal of the trade was to get rid of Iglasis to make room for Bogarts – who still has never played a ML out at SS. 

     

    The point of this, of course, is that Moon was right.  Iggy was never going to be the SS in Boston and he’s better off in Detroit or wherever he lands. And never believe the RS front office.  

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    <br/>the bigger question is how come anytime the Sox get a defensive-minded SS they want to get rid of him? Iglesias may be better off, but the Sox defense was that much better with him. However, Peavy at 2 years is still nice and Drew is doing fine at SS this year.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    Tonight's Dodger starter, Ricky Nolasco is 4-1 , with a 2.98 ERA for them since being acquired from Miami for three rather nondescript minor league pitchers.  The Oriole's Bud Norris is 3-1 , with a 3.91 ERA since being acquired from Houston for a middling outfield prospect and a Class A pitcher. Jake Peavy is 1-1 , with a 4.18 ERA since being acquired for Iglesias, a gold glove caliber, 23 year old shortstop , who is currently batting .324 in the A.L.     Peavy is 32. Nolasco is 30. Norris is 28.   Do you still like the trade ????

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Tonight's Dodger starter, Ricky Nolasco is 4-1 , with a 2.98 ERA for them since being acquired from Miami for three rather non-descript minor league pitchers.  The Oriole's Bud Norris is 3-1 , with a 3.91 ERA since being acquired from Houston for a middling outfield prospect and a Class A pitcher. Jake Peavy is 1-1 , with a 4.18 ERA since being acquired for Iglesias, a gold glove caliber, 23 year old shortstop , who is currently batting .324 in the A.L.     Peavy is 32. Nolasco is 30. Norris is 28.   Do you still like the trade ????

    Stabbed by Foulke.



    As much as I ever did.

     
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  8. This post has been removed.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    Never say never.

    As nearly everyone know, I have been a huge Iggy supporter and wanted him starting since the beginning of 2012. That being said, I do not think Ben sees Iggy as anything more than a platoon IF'er. That's why he signed Drew. That's why he sent Iggy to AAA despite his hot start when Drew came off the DL. That's why he traded his "utility IF'er" for a pitcher under control until the end of 2014 who has numbers that place him in the top 30 starters in MLB since 2012.

    Next year, even if we had Iggy, Ben & John were going to go with Boggy at SS and Middy at 3B with Cecchini breathing down Middy's back. Iggy was going to be the back-up next year- like it or not. We can argue the merits of that plan vs, say, Iggy at SS, Boggy at 3B, and Middy at 1B, but the fact is, the chances Iggy would have been our starting SS next year were slim. With that fact in mind, the trade was totally understandable and justified.

    Sox4ever

     

     

    If there’s one thing Moon and I agree on it’s that Iggy never was going to be the SS for the Red Sox.  It’s obvious now that the deck was stacked against him from the beginning. 

    The FO played the fans all along with Iggy.  Someone in the FO committed to XBo as the SS of the future some time ago and that wasn’t going to change.  They implied to us fans that Drew was a one-year stopgap because we already had "the SS of the future".  After seeing Iggy, a slick fielding but light hitting SS in the minors it wasn't even a bit of a stretch to think that Iglasis WAS the SS of the future - so we bought into it.  And the team began to win… more than anyone expected. 

    I now firmly believe they brought Iggy up initially so he could prove to the fans that he couldn't hit so the FO could justify trading him, a making room for their “Golden Boy”, - but Iggy double-crossed them and hit! So suddenly the FO had a problem on their hands.  They had a SS who could play and whom the fans liked but he wasn’t the one the FO wanted for the future.  The solution of course was easy.  Trade him. Trade him for whatever the team needs for this unexpected stretch drive to make room for XBo.  So they did. Problem solved. 

    You can say what you want to about his .500 average being unsustainable (true DUH!) or his BAPIP being high or that he’ll come back to his norm (both true), but the fact remains the guy was getting on base and playing great defense while he was doing it – often at not his best position.  Then when Iggy started to come back to his offensive norm the hue and cry went up, “See!  We told you he couldn’t hit!”  So rather than allow him to come back to his norm and see where it would be, they traded him – ostensibly and partly in their quest for the playoffs this year. 

     

    If this trade works and Peavy is what they hope he’ll be, so much the better, but it’s obvious now that the goal of the trade was to get rid of Iglasis to make room for Bogarts – who still has never played an out at SS. 

     

    The point of this, of course, is that Moon was right.  Iggy was never going to be the SS in Boston and he’s better off in Detroit or wherever he lands. And never believe the RS front office.  

     

    Personally, I'd have lovedd to see Iggy as our SS for the next 4+ years and Boggy, Middy and Cecchini fighting over the 3B and 1B jobs for many years to come. I was not for this trade for that reason, but I am also a fan that recognizes that pitching is so very important. I like Peavy as a starter. He's better than many here want to admit. He wasn't a 2 month rental. With ot without Buch, having Peavy greatly improves our staff both this year and next.

    To get the 2012 to 2013 starting pitcher sample size to 150 pitchers (30 teams times 5 starters) you have to go down to 140 IP. It is my opinion that a top 30 starter is a 1 slot starter. The term "ace" is subjective, so I won't call Peavy an ace, but here is how he places in several key categories of judging pitchers' skillset...

    WAR  23rd at 6.0 (close to CCSab, Greinke, and Strasburg)

    WHIP 13th at 1.11

    ERA- 38th at 86 (but 17th out of 67 AL starters)

    ERA  54th at 3.65 (22nd out of 67 AL starters)

    tERA 18th out of 67 in AL

    SIERA 14th out of 67 in AL

    xFIP  67th at 3.93

     

    He's easily classified as a number 2 starter. One could argue low #1.

    Sox4ever

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    S5 that is quite a theory.... I like it.



    It's not at all a difficult conclusion to come to if you just follow the facts back and try to rationalize what happen and why.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    Iggy's battng .299 with an .338 OBP in Detroit.... 20 hits in 20 games with the Tigers.



    Where are all those posters who were creating a new thread everytime Iggy made an out early on with the Tigers?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    The truth is that this was a very poor trade. A very talented 23 year old shortstop for a veteran pitcher with diminished velocity. Peavy can still be effective if he can work both corners of the plate consistently. From what I have seen in his four starts for the Sox, he does not have the stuff to shut down the better teams. Tonight , we saw Nolasco shut down our offense. Nolasco was available and could have been had for much less than Iglesias. A G.M. and his staff have to make the right choices. Ben has not shown himself to be a good horse trader. He comes out on the short end. I am not counting the blockbuster with the Dodgers, because that was more of a salary dump than a trade. The Dodgers were willing to take those contracts off our hands. We gained payroll flexibility, but no one could seriously say that we got the better of it talent wise. Reddick for Bailey: Not good.  Melancon for Hanrahan: Worse.  Iglesias for Peavy: Stay tuned. This will be the worst of all. This will be rued for years. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    The truth is that this was a very poor trade. A very talented 23 year old shortstop for a veteran pitcher with diminished velocity. Peavy can still be effective if he can work both corners of the plate consistently. From what I have seen in his four starts for the Sox, he does not have the stuff to shut down the better teams. Tonight , we saw Nolasco shut down our offense. Nolasco was available and could have been had for much less than Iglesias. A G.M. and his staff have to make the right choices. Ben has not shown himself to be a good horse trader. He comes out on the short end. I am not counting the blockbuster with the Dodgers, because that was more of a salary dump than a trade. The Dodgers were willing to take those contracts off our hands. We gained payroll flexibility, but no one could seriously say that we got the better of it talent wise. Reddick for Bailey: Not good.  Melancon for Hanrahan: Worse.  Iglesias for Peavy: Stay tuned. This will be the worst of all. This will be rued for years. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.



    I get your point and agree with a lot of what is said here, but to me this trade was about two seperate issues.

    1) Was Iggy going to be our FT SS had he stayed here. I was 100% on board with a "Yes". It is this issue that I disagree with Ben & John about.

    2) If Iggy was not going to be the FT SS going forward, but instead was going to be our utility IF'er and late inning defensive SS, was the trade for Peavy goor, bad, or so so?

    It's hard to get by point 1 and seperate it from point 2, because they are related, but try and look at from the perspective that Ben was not going to annoint Iggy the starter. Disagree all you want, as I did and do, but as I have said for years, "if we are not going to make Iggy our FT SS, we should trade him". Well, like it or not, that's just about what happened.

    Now that Drew and Middy are playing well, the Peavy pick-up could make the difference this year and/or next, but there's going to be a lot of complaining, if we never win a ring and Iggy goes on to become a decent hitter.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    This deserves a bump, I think. After a complete game by the "old and broken down" Peavy last night, he now owns a 3.31 ERA and stellar 0.98 WHIP in 5 starts for Boston. He is looking like exactly what this rotation needed.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    Peavy is for real. Just because we hated to see Iggy go, does not mean we should overlook the fact that we got an excellent pitcher for more than one year of team control.

    The return of Buchholz as a meaningful starter is looking more and more in doubt. Sure, he may be back in form by October, but having Peavy gives us a shot to win it all this year- Buch or not.

     

    Sox4ever

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?


    still blame Buch for putting us in the position to have to do this trade to begin with...........

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    A Complete game over one of the hottest teams, at home. We'll take it.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    I don't agree with S5's theory that Iglesias was doomed all along.  The Sox brought him up not once but twice, and the second time they cut a guy (Snyder?) to make room for Iglesias for the rest of the season.  I agree they were always aware of not only Bogaerts, but also Drew and any other SS's lurking in the minors. 

    I think several factors made Iglesias expendable--

    1. Real need for a good starter combined with Detroit need for a SS.

    2. Iglesias basically stopped hitting in July for the whole month--like he had regressed back to the Iglesias we all saw in 2012. 

    3. Drew started hitting in July, plus he was playing a good steady SS since April.  Six errors to date, which is very good for a SS, plus decent range.  That's why Iglesias played 3B--not, repeat, not SS--most of the time. 

    4. With Drew at SS, Iglesias at 3B was blocking Middlebrooks's return, which theoretically would really help the lineup.  Corner infielders are not supposed to be defensive specialists, but are supposed to be hard hitters, which Iglesias will never be. 

    5.  As we now know, Iglesias was also blocking Bogaerts, who can play 3B and SS and, like Middlebrooks, is a much better hitter than Iglesias.

    6.  The Sox have a surfeit of SS's without Iglesias--Drew the everyday SS, Bogaerts, and at least two more in the minors.  Iglesias, while an undeniably brilliant fielder, was not crucial to this season or subsequent ones. 

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    No, add one proviso. Put a gag order on Crawford.

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to Iceman4's comment:


    still blame Buch for putting us in the position to have to do this trade to begin with...........




    So, you are inferring he had a choice in the matter.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     


    still blame Buch for putting us in the position to have to do this trade to begin with...........

     




    So, you are inferring he had a choice in the matter.

     




    nope...........just mad at how that situation has played out......still don't understand why the recovery has taken so long.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     


    still blame Buch for putting us in the position to have to do this trade to begin with...........

     




    So, you are inferring he had a choice in the matter.

     

     




    nope...........just mad at how that situation has played out......still don't understand why the recovery has taken so long.

     




    Some people have longer heal times than others. Some have higher or lower pain threshholds. Even MRIs and X-rays don't always tell the whole story. Expert doctors don't always know why some people react differently to treatment than others.

    I usually just trust the player's choice unless something shows me not to. Nothing about Buch makes me think he's milking this. I'm not saying some other guy might be pitching right now under the same exact circumstances, but that's a slipper slope to walk.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Tonight's Dodger starter, Ricky Nolasco is 4-1 , with a 2.98 ERA for them since being acquired from Miami for three rather nondescript minor league pitchers.  The Oriole's Bud Norris is 3-1 , with a 3.91 ERA since being acquired from Houston for a middling outfield prospect and a Class A pitcher. Jake Peavy is 1-1 , with a 4.18 ERA since being acquired for Iglesias, a gold glove caliber, 23 year old shortstop , who is currently batting .324 in the A.L.     Peavy is 32. Nolasco is 30. Norris is 28.   Do you still like the trade ????

    Stabbed by Foulke.



    Nolasco is not eligible for draft compensation, and Norris isn't that good.  We get Peavy next year too, and personally I hope beyond that, but worst case scenario, we get a draft pick, and Brayan Villareal.  And Bogaerts is now hitting .333.  

    That last part was a joke, but only slightly more ridiculous than using Iggy's BA.  Since the AS break, Iglesias is hitting .238 with an OPS under .600.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: do you still like the trade?

    In response to slomag's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Tonight's Dodger starter, Ricky Nolasco is 4-1 , with a 2.98 ERA for them since being acquired from Miami for three rather nondescript minor league pitchers.  The Oriole's Bud Norris is 3-1 , with a 3.91 ERA since being acquired from Houston for a middling outfield prospect and a Class A pitcher. Jake Peavy is 1-1 , with a 4.18 ERA since being acquired for Iglesias, a gold glove caliber, 23 year old shortstop , who is currently batting .324 in the A.L.     Peavy is 32. Nolasco is 30. Norris is 28.   Do you still like the trade ????

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     



    Nolasco is not eligible for draft compensation, and Norris isn't that good.  We get Peavy next year too, and personally I hope beyond that, but worst case scenario, we get a draft pick, and Brayan Villareal.  And Bogaerts is now hitting .333.  

     

    That last part was a joke, but only slightly more ridiculous than using Iggy's BA.  Since the AS break, Iglesias is hitting .238 with an OPS under .600.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The draft pick we'll likely get after Peavy bolts after 2014 has real value.  If Peavy is doing well next year, and we are out of it, we could trade him for a guy like Iggy.

    Here are the recent 10 year draft picks close to where a comp pick would fall:

    '13 (45th pick) Stankiewicz

    '12 (31) Brian Johnson, (37) Pat Light

    '11 (36) Henry Owens, (40) Jackie Bradley Jr

    '10 (36) Bryce Brentz, (57) B Workman

    '09 None

    '08 (30) Casey Kelly, (45) Bryan Price

    '07 (55) Nick Hagadone

    '06 (28) D Bard, (39) K Johnson

    '05 (26) C Hansen, (42) Buchholz, (45) Lowrie, (47) Bowden

    '04 Pedroia

     

     

     

     

     

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