Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    In Response to Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.:
    [QUOTE]Welcome to Pittsburgh/Kansas City/Oakland frame of mind. Well let’s be honest. The bottom line is that the Sox don’t want to go over the $178 million luxury tax threshold. Ben is telling us that we don’t need a new model; just a little tinkering with the engine. That’s okay if you made it deep into the playoffs last year but the Sox haven’t made it to the post season the last two years. The fact is to win a championship, you need an effective closer. We had one in Jonathan Papelbon. He’s gone to Philadelphia. Are they going to sign Ryan Madson? We know closer by committee doesn’t work. What about a solid veteran right fielder? Because we resigned David Ortiz the Sox won’t go after Michael Cuddyer or Carlos Beltran because of the cost. Would you like an effective starting pitcher like a Roy Oswalt? Forget it. Only a low cost pitcher will be signing on. Didn’t we go that route a couple of years ago with the likes of Brad Penny? How did that work out? And would you like to see Yu Darvish work with Bobby Valentine? Sorry not this year. Bobby Valentine may be a great manager but without an effective closer and a good starting rotation, he will have a hard time leading this team deep into the playoffs. And one other thing. Ben says we already have a solid front three in the rotation. I still have a big question mark. Does the Sox really have a number one pitcher like Pedro or Curt? Does Lester Or Beckett have the bull dog determination, the heart and sole of a true competitor during the September heat of a pennant race? Beckett did in 2007, but can he do it again? Can he pitch with his nagging injuries and give the Sox 200 plus innings and be a stopper? Can Lester finally be that kind of pitcher? What is the durability of a Buchholz? Can he go out and give us 200 innings also? I say the Sox should do the right thing and sign Madson and put in a bid for Darvish. Give Bobby V the tools to bring home another championship.
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]

    All the bull s....t crying. It's all about being in shape and doing what they can do. Tons of talent on this team.If nothing is done sox will still be in playoff . Cry cry cry......Everyone grow -up !!
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team. : All the bull s....t crying. It's all about being in shape and doing what they can do. Tons of talent on this team.If nothing is done sox will still be in playoff . Cry cry cry......Everyone grow -up !!
    Posted by donrd4[/QUOTE]

    Amen bruddah.

    My first objection is that I refuse to be labled as EEII by the 97% of the league that spends less than us.  We are, over a long period, the #2 spending team in BB.  Just shut up already.  Just stop.  It's embarrassing.  If you don't like being the #2 spender in BB, then root for the EE I.  There is no alternative.  We will never outspend them.

    My second objection is that it is still early December.  Still lots of players unsigned, still lots of players to be traded.  Still decisions to be made about whether we need 1 SP, 2 SPs, etc.

    The time to object about spending was last year when we spent too much on CC.

    Lastly, as you said, we are still a premier team.  As I've said before, I'm willing to make a friendly bet.  Anyone can take any team in the league, except for the NYY and the Phillies, and I'll bet a tag line that we have more wins than that team.
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team. : Amen bruddah. My first objection is that I refuse to be labled as EEII by the 97% of the league that spends less than us.  We are, over a long period, the #2 spending team in BB.  Just shut up already.  Just stop.  It's embarrassing.  If you don't like being the #2 spender in BB, then root for the EE I.  There is no alternative.  We will never outspend them. My second objection is that it is still early December.  Still lots of players unsigned, still lots of players to be traded.  Still decisions to be made about whether we need 1 SP, 2 SPs, etc. The time to object about spending was last year when we spent too much on CC. Lastly, as you said, we are still a premier team.  As I've said before, I'm willing to make a friendly bet.  Anyone can take any team in the league, except for the NYY and the Phillies, and I'll bet a tag line that we have more wins than that team.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    Frankly, who cares how much money Henry spends. Tons of money doesn't gaurantee a championship. Heart and determination play just as big a roll as talent.
    It's not about the money, it's about getting the right players that fit this organization.
    We are weak at three key postions; C, RF, and SS. And only average at two; LF (unless CC improves) and 3B.
    The rotation has 2 vacancies, and the BP is weak.
    Yes, we have 178M payroll, but certainly not 178M worth of talent
    and motivation.
    IMO, if Henry is not willing to exceed the threshold, our pitching is doomed. We can get by with the offense and defense we have, but not enought to win a championship.
     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaBlade. Show DaBlade's posts

    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    A couple thoughts of mine mimic some mentioned here... First I think the Sox rotation is ok 1 through 3 but is not an area of comfort due to injury and additude. If It was me I would make a push a legit try to win Yu Darvish (I know a Japaneese pitcher is scary but I think that is the best option available to the sox and the posting fee is not a problem or shouldn't be for a team like the sox.)
    And then keep Bard as a set up and give Aceves the 5th spot. That is a rotation that on paper I can live with especially with Bobby as manager. Then Kalish is ok in RF if you want to go cheap. You need to do something for closer and also for the bullpen in general.

    I don't think it is right especially with Fenway turning 100. This should be a year they go all out in my opinion.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

       The one move that to me is a no brainer is the signing of Cuddyer. He can play multiple positions, a RH bat that could balance line-up. I have to believe that in other years, where money wasn't such a concern, he'd be signed by now.
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    attic, we may only have about $3-4M to spend and stay below the threshold. Even if we go $10M over the threshold, I seriously doubt we'd spend most of the $13M on a horrible fielding RF'er. Our offense is OK. We need help with our staff. To me, that is the "no-brainer".
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    The simple fact is this is a VERY expensive team! It's also a very good team. But what it's clearly not is a team capable of winning a ring. It would be an outrageous act of stupidity to allow a team this expensive, and this good, to fail this year. What's hard to understand about that? If we don't go over the salary tax line now, then exactly when would you? We've lost 2 starters to Tommy John surgery and have at least 4 holes to fill. Championing making the playoff's with virtually zero chance to win is what itty bitty market clubs do. Which is exactly the author of this threads point.  
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.:
    [QUOTE]The simple fact is this is a VERY expensive team! It's also a very good team. But what it's clearly not is a team capable of winning a ring. It would be an outrageous act of stupidity to allow a team this expensive, and this good, to fail this year. What's hard to understand about that? If we don't go over the salary tax line now, then exactly when would you? We've lost 2 starters to Tommy John surgery and have at least 4 holes to fill. Championing making the playoff's with virtually zero chance to win is what itty bitty market clubs do. Which is exactly the author of this threads point.  
    Posted by Teakus[/QUOTE]

    Teakus, because we have overspent and are pretty good now, but not good enough to win a ring, that means we are obligated to keep overspending to stay competitive?

    Yes, we have 4 holes to fill. How many do the Yanks have to fill? The Cards? The Rangers?

    We are not going to have 25 allstarts, and neither are other teams. Every team will have weaknesses. We will too.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    Did the owners spend enough during the winters preceding the 2004 and 2007 Championship teams. Think back and tell me if you thought that those teams were of championship calibre out of the gate. Did you have the mindset on April 1st, 2004 and 2007 that this year was going to be a piece of cake? Was it a sure thing? If not, then the FO failed to guarantee you that a trophy was imminent. Shame on them for not doing enough both winters to guarantee the success that we were entitled to. Instead we all had to suffer throughout the season not knowing what the end result would be. The nerve of the FO for holding back on us. From now on I want the FO to gift wrap a trophy for me before I purchase another ticket, that is the least that they can do.

     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    I don't have access to the new Collective Bargaining Agreement, but I found this tidbit from FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal interesting:

    "The Red Sox, after exceeding the threshold in each of the past two offseasons, will be taxed at 40 percent for each dollar they spend over $178 million, 50 percent if they continue to bust the threshold next offseason and beyond.

    On the other hand, if the Sox can stay below $178 million, they will be taxed at a rate of only 17.5 percent the next time they exceed the threshold — a powerful incentive for them to refrain from big spending this offseason."

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Boston-Red-Sox-luxury-tax-concerns-limit-offseason-options-121111

    If that is accurate, the Red Sox indeed are in a bind.

     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    Ahhhhh...I'm sad to see you're decision to drift away from your recently stated beliefs. I certainly hope you didn't feel pressured... In another thread you mentioned, "but it has been a while since we negelcted our pen so much." 

    I would say if we move Bard to starter and leave only Aceves in the pen, it would become the single worst pen among the large market teams and would almost ensure our doom this year. If staggering into the playoff's with no chance to win is your thing, then enjoy what's coming friend. If we roll out the kiddies and go cheap it's over before we even start. What a waste! May as well blow up the damn team and go into rebuilding mode with that silly strategy.Yes, Henry and the boys spent well last season. Too well to go cheap now.....





    In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team. : Teakus, because we have overspent and are pretty good now, but not good enough to win a ring, that means we are obligated to keep overspending to stay competitive? Yes, we have 4 holes to fill. How many do the Yanks have to fill? The Cards? The Rangers? We are not going to have 25 allstarts, and neither are other teams. Every team will have weaknesses. We will too.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.:
    [QUOTE]I don't have access to the new Collective Bargaining Agreement, but I found this tidbit from FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal interesting: "The Red Sox, after exceeding the threshold in each of the past two offseasons, will be taxed at 40 percent for each dollar they spend over $178 million, 50 percent if they continue to bust the threshold next offseason and beyond. On the other hand, if the Sox can stay below $178 million, they will be taxed at a rate of only 17.5 percent the next time they exceed the threshold — a powerful incentive for them to refrain from big spending this offseason." http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Boston-Red-Sox-luxury-tax-concerns-limit-offseason-options-121111 If that is accurate, the Red Sox indeed are in a bind.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    If we are at the threshold now, that means that the real cost of signing Papelbon ( 4 yrs - $50 mil.) $12.5 mil. in 2012 would be 1.4 X 12.5 or $17.5 mil. or an annual penalty of $5 mil. per year. CC Sabathia is costing the Yankee 25 X 1.4 or $35 mil. per year. That cost is $10 mil. more per yr. than Pujols is getting.
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.:
    [QUOTE]attic, we may only have about $3-4M to spend and stay below the threshold. Even if we go $10M over the threshold, I seriously doubt we'd spend most of the $13M on a horrible fielding RF'er. Our offense is OK. We need help with our staff. To me, that is the "no-brainer".
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
      No arguement here, I too think pitching is biggest need. It looks like they are going to sign as many marginal arms as they can, and hope some pan out. In Cuddyer all I am saying is he could fill multiple needs be it RF, 3B, 1B, DH, and in the past money wouldn't have held the Sox back.
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    The RS have overspent the last three years and with the market this season I think they are taking a more financially responisble approach. 

    I am happy the RS did not overspend on Wilson and Beurhle, I think they should try to find two guys not named (Wakefield, Acevas or Bard) to fill the remaining two spots.  Oswalt or Edwin Jackson would be nice 4th starters and one out of this list would be nice (Harden, Gallaraga, Garland, Francis, or Zach Duke)  If there is an injury than Acevas would get first shot or maybe Andrew Miller can finally figure his mechanics out.

    Bard should either close or stay in the 8th and sign Madsen.  If Bard stays in the pen and a  combonation of Madsen and one of (Zumaya, Wuertz, Rodney) would make a nice stable pen. Id like to see them trade for another middle of the game guy who can throw strikes. Low prospect deal not involving major league ready talent.


     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    i honestly dont get how we could be at the threshold when drews 14 mill, paps 12 mill etc. came off the books. yes we had guys salaries who went up but we should have more money to spend. regardless the sox should go over the threshold if it means putting a better team on the field. and remember its 40 percent on what we spend over 178 mill. so we are just getting taxed on the extra whatever. this team is one of the highest revenue teams in the league. they make far more money than what they spend on payroll. this team has finished in 3rd place 2 years in a row now and honestly i can see much changing unless we added some talent. ben says he is confident in our top 3 pitchers but i would argue that clay buchholz is not a reliable number 3 pitcher at this point in his career. he is a number 4 no question. we need a number 3 and a number 5. if they convert bard that gives us a number 5. our number 3 should come in the form of yu darvish but it remians to be seen if the sox will make a serious bid for him. they could be downplaying their interest at this point which would not surprise me. chnages need to be made. 
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    An elite team? Says who! We are at best the 6th best team in the Al. Maybe 10th overall. Is that elite?
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.:
    [QUOTE]i honestly dont get how we could be at the threshold when drews 14 mill, paps 12 mill etc. came off the books. yes we had guys salaries who went up but we should have more money to spend. regardless the sox should go over the threshold if it means putting a better team on the field. and remember its 40 percent on what we spend over 178 mill. so we are just getting taxed on the extra whatever. this team is one of the highest revenue teams in the league. they make far more money than what they spend on payroll. this team has finished in 3rd place 2 years in a row now and honestly i can see much changing unless we added some talent. ben says he is confident in our top 3 pitchers but i would argue that clay buchholz is not a reliable number 3 pitcher at this point in his career. he is a number 4 no question. we need a number 3 and a number 5. if they convert bard that gives us a number 5. our number 3 should come in the form of yu darvish but it remians to be seen if the sox will make a serious bid for him. they could be downplaying their interest at this point which would not surprise me. chnages need to be made. 
    Posted by redsoxpride34[/QUOTE]

    Yankee revenue was $427 mil. in 2010. Red Sox revenues were $272 mil. Yanks had 40% more revenue or $155 mil. more than Boston. That is why they can afford a payroll that exceeds $204 mil. and can afford to go after Darvish this winter. By the way, the Red Sox had an operating deficit in 2010. They are not as wealthy as your agenda wishes them to be.
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    Lets wait and see what falls spring is a long way from now.
     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    Ahhhhh...I'm sad to see you're decision to drift away from your recently stated beliefs. I certainly hope you didn't feel pressured... In another thread you mentioned, "but it has been a while since we negelcted our pen so much." 

    The point I was making in that thread was that if we do spend and go over the threshold, it should not be for a RF'er like Cuddyer, but rather to upgrade our pitching staff.

    I would say if we move Bard to starter and leave only Aceves in the pen, it would become the single worst pen among the large market teams and would almost ensure our doom this year. If staggering into the playoff's with no chance to win is your thing, then enjoy what's coming friend. If we roll out the kiddies and go cheap it's over before we even start. What a waste! May as well blow up the damn team and go into rebuilding mode with that silly strategy.Yes, Henry and the boys spent well last season. Too well to go cheap now.....

    If I had to choose one, I'd move Aceves to the rotation and keep Bard in the pen.

    I agree, if we do move one of the two to the rotation, our pen looks very shabby right now, but a trade here and a signing there might make it acceptable. We still should lead the league in runs scored. Our top 3 starters could be as good as anybody elses. Those two facts alone, give us a shot. 

    I doubt we don't add anyone to the staff, but here's how it might look if we didn't:

    SP1 Beckett
    SP2 Lester
    SP3 Buchholtz
    SP4 Bard
    SP5 Aceves
    SP6 Tazawa>Dice K

    RP1 Jenks
    RP2 Morales
    RP3 Albers
    RP4 Doubront
    RP5 Atchison
    RP6 Bowden, Miller, Weiland...

    If we get a capable closer and one set up guy, our overall staff will still be above average.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from clff. Show clff's posts

    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    Why not? It is their team.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    In Response to Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.:
    [QUOTE]i honestly dont get how we could be at the threshold when drews 14 mill, paps 12 mill etc. came off the books. yes we had guys salaries who went up but we should have more money to spend. regardless the sox should go over the threshold if it means putting a better team on the field. and remember its 40 percent on what we spend over 178 mill. so we are just getting taxed on the extra whatever. this team is one of the highest revenue teams in the league. they make far more money than what they spend on payroll. this team has finished in 3rd place 2 years in a row now and honestly i can see much changing unless we added some talent. ben says he is confident in our top 3 pitchers but i would argue that clay buchholz is not a reliable number 3 pitcher at this point in his career. he is a number 4 no question. we need a number 3 and a number 5. if they convert bard that gives us a number 5. our number 3 should come in the form of yu darvish but it remians to be seen if the sox will make a serious bid for him. they could be downplaying their interest at this point which would not surprise me. chnages need to be made. 
    Posted by redsoxpride34[/QUOTE]

    Look for yourself...


    As you can see, after the arb signings we are estimated at about $161M. Add Papi's $12-14M and we'll be at about $173-175M. That puts us just under the $178M limit.

    Remember, the AGon extension is abig bump. Buch was extended as well, so there goes a few million there. That more than makes up for the loss of Drew.

     
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    Re: Do you think it's right? The Red Sox ownership this winter is acting like a small market team.

    Oh come on. We spent tons last winter and didn't make the playoffs. Money can buy you love, Beatles told us that.  What we need is in our minor league. Some kids who wants it so bad they are taken BP betweens shots at McDonald's.

    If you build it, can't you hear it?  
     
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