Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Choose wisely...
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    Choose wisely...
    Posted by moonslav59


    moon, I respect the fact you are a long time Tek fan but hes done.  Over 70% of RS fans believe Tek should not return.  Napoli and Molina type catchers have more overall value.

    Lav will probably hit 270/280 in his first season, throw out more runners and do just fine, as did Napoli who never even met the Texas staff before this season.  Salty also deserves another year, it's not about money or loyalty anymore but improving our team for the future.  If Salty and/or Lav don't work out Y. Molina may be available after next season and he can do it all.

    It's time to move on, it's not fair for the Sox to burn Salty after one season or have Tek stand in the way of Lavs chance at the bigs.  Tek in some type of coaching role I'm all for.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Sign Gerald Laird as the backup.  If Lavarnway makes the team as well, carrying 3 ctcher won't kill them.  Especially if one of them plays some part time DH...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    moon, I respect the fact you are a long time Tek fan but hes done. 

    Wrong. I was against signing him after he refused arb. I thought Theo made a big mistake to pay him $8M/2 from 2009 to 2010. I used to argue with harness about VTek's "hidden value". I do not even like Vtek as a person. He's probably my 25th favorite player out of 25. Just because I defend him and his numbers as a back-up catcher, does not mean I am his fan. 

    Over 70% of RS fans believe Tek should not return.  Napoli and Molina type catchers have more overall value.

    Again, you are misunderstanding my position. I wanted Napoli and mentioned trying to get him about 15 times over the last 2 years. I also wanted VMart back until we got AGon, and it made more sense. My position is different from that of harness, but I have come to realize the value of "getting the most out of your staff" as a catcher.

    70% of the RS fans on this site answered a skewed question and fell for the negative softy propaganda. Big deal. My guess is the numbers maybe be quite different to my differently worded poll. (Even with softy voting under 17 different moniker)

    Lav will probably hit 270/280 in his first season, throw out more runners and do just fine, as did Napoli who never even met the Texas staff before this season.  Salty also deserves another year, it's not about money or loyalty anymore but improving our team for the future.  If Salty and/or Lav don't work out Y. Molina may be available after next season and he can do it all.

    1) CS% is not the only measurement of a catcher's value behind the plate. It is actually just a small part of the total package.
    2) Lava may well be our DH if Papi walks (and 3rd catcher).
    3) I'd love Y. Molina in 2013, but we are talking about getting to 2013 and having a chance to win in 2012 with a small cost vet catcher.

    It's time to move on, it's not fair for the Sox to burn Salty after one season or have Tek stand in the way of Lavs chance at the bigs.  Tek in some type of coaching role I'm all for.

    1) If papi walks, we will need another catcher and it won't be impeding anyone's growth. 
    2) Salty burnt out in 2011 after playing less games as a starter than all but 2 MLB starting catchers. I'm all for giving him a second chance, but want a vet in the wings "just in case", and I don't want to spend $5-7M for one either.
    3) If Papi does not walk, VTek will not be back despite my opinion. The staff will suffer. Particularly, watch Beckett and Bard's numbers in 2012. You may call them dependent on their security blanket, but facts are facts.
    4) Lava is not ready to catch full time. His bat may be ML ready, but he's not a MLb ready catcher right now. His minor league games caught totals are: 10, 66, 53, and 62 from 2008 to 2011. Here you are saying Salty deserves another chance, but look at how much he had in catching experience compared to Lava:
    2003: 36 Rookie league
    2004: 50 in A
    2005: 93 in A+
    2006: 81 in AA
    2007: MLB 47 + 20 in AA  (67 total)
    2008: MLB 54 + 15 in AAA (69 total)
    2009: MLB 82 + 2 in AA (84 total)
    2010: MLB 7 + 61 in AAA (68 total)
    2011: MLB 101 

    I have high hopes with Lava. I'm talking about spending maybe $1M with incentives to bring back an experienced back-up catcher who caught more innings than all but 2 back-up MLb catchers and had a higher OPS than 22 team catcher OPS. I really don't see why this is so outlandish to so many posters.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    Sign Gerald Laird as the backup.  If Lavarnway makes the team as well, carrying 3 ctcher won't kill them.  Especially if one of them plays some part time DH...
    Posted by notin


    He won't hit any better than Vtek.
    2011: .660
    2010: .567
    2009: .626
    2008: .727
    2007: .627

    I'm not sure how well he handles pitchers. He had the exact same CERA as Y. Molina in 2011 (3.80), but caught mostly McClellan, Lohse, and Westbrook and had only 27 PAs with Carpenter. His sample sizes were small. in a little larger sample size with Detroit in 2010 and about equal innings as Avila. He had a 4.11 CERA to Avila's 4.47, but Baird did catch slightly more of Verlander. (Also more of Porcello, but less of Bonderman, Galarraga, & Scherzer)

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    moon, I respect the fact you are a long time Tek fan but hes done.  Wrong. I was against signing him after he refused arb. I thought Theo made a big mistake to pay him $8M/2 from 2009 to 2010. I used to argue with harness about VTek's "hidden value". I do not even like Vtek as a person. He's probably my 25th favorite player out of 25. Just because I defend him and his numbers as a back-up catcher, does not mean I am his fan.  Over 70% of RS fans believe Tek should not return.  Napoli and Molina type catchers have more overall value. Again, you are misunderstanding my position. I wanted Napoli and mentioned trying to get him about 15 times over the last 2 years. I also wanted VMart back until we got AGon, and it made more sense. My position is different from that of harness, but I have come to realize the value of "getting the most out of your staff" as a catcher. 70% of the RS fans on this site answered a skewed question and fell for the negative softy propaganda. Big deal. My guess is the numbers maybe be quite different to my differently worded poll. (Even with softy voting under 17 different moniker) Lav will probably hit 270/280 in his first season, throw out more runners and do just fine, as did Napoli who never even met the Texas staff before this season.  Salty also deserves another year, it's not about money or loyalty anymore but improving our team for the future.  If Salty and/or Lav don't work out Y. Molina may be available after next season and he can do it all. 1) CS% is not the only measurement of a catcher's value behind the plate. It is actually just a small part of the total package. 2) Lava may well be our DH if Papi walks (and 3rd catcher). 3) I'd love Y. Molina in 2013, but we are talking about getting to 2013 and having a chance to win in 2012 with a small cost vet catcher. It's time to move on, it's not fair for the Sox to burn Salty after one season or have Tek stand in the way of Lavs chance at the bigs.  Tek in some type of coaching role I'm all for. 1) If papi walks, we will need another catcher and it won't be impeding anyone's growth.  2) Salty burnt out in 2011 after playing less games as a starter than all but 2 MLB starting catchers. I'm all for giving him a second chance, but want a vet in the wings "just in case", and I don't want to spend $5-7M for one either. 3) If Papi does not walk, VTek will not be back despite my opinion. The staff will suffer. Particularly, watch Beckett and Bard's numbers in 2012. You may call them dependent on their security blanket, but facts are facts. 4) Lava is not ready to catch full time. His bat may be ML ready, but he's not a MLb ready catcher right now. His minor league games caught totals are: 10, 66, 53, and 62 from 2008 to 2011. Here you are saying Salty deserves another chance, but look at how much he had in catching experience compared to Lava: 2003: 36 Rookie league 2004: 50 in A 2005: 93 in A+ 2006: 81 in AA 2007: MLB 47 + 20 in AA  (67 total) 2008: MLB 54 + 15 in AAA (69 total) 2009: MLB 82 + 2 in AA (84 total) 2010: MLB 7 + 61 in AAA (68 total) 2011: MLB 101  I have high hopes with Lava. I'm talking about spending maybe $1M with incentives to bring back an experienced back-up catcher who caught more innings than all but 2 back-up MLb catchers and had a higher OPS than 22 team catcher OPS. I really don't see why this is so outlandish to so many posters.
    Posted by moonslav59


    I fully understand your position now moon, sorry if I had your thoughts wrong.  I also liked Napoli.  I just had a feeling all Mike needed was more playing time/expereince to fully reach his potential.  I feel the same with Lav.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Does not look like a poll, it looks more like an editorial...
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    One factor we are forgettng is that Tek is worth a type B pick. That seals the deal for me. If not for that I would sign him for $1 mil just for insurance but I think he might get a little more than that. He's worth it.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from WesternOregon. Show WesternOregon's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Lavarnway starts the season as DH and fills as CA as much as needed. This allows for him to be full-time and still open the DH spot for guys that COULD use a break from playing the filed.

    It is more apparent then ever that the older players are in the way.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from tripleb2066. Show tripleb2066's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Kelly Shoppach to back up Salty. Lavarnway makes the team as a third catcher / part time DH or starts the season in AAA.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher? : I fully understand your position now moon, sorry if I had your thoughts wrong.  I also liked Napoli.  I just had a feeling all Mike needed was more playing time/expereince to fully reach his potential.  I feel the same with Lav.
    Posted by craze4sox


    No problem craze. You weren't here when I was advocating trading for Napoli while he was with LAA and Toronto.  I have high hopes for Lava...very high hopes. I just do not think it is realistic to expect any catcher at his age to step into the fire that is Boston Red Sox sports as a 60+ game catcher. He needs at least another year and probably more like 2-3 more. That is the only reason I think a cheap 1 year veteran catcher deal is a good idea. VTek is not the only cheap option out there, but he knows our staff, and for a 1 year deal, I think he makes the most sense.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    Does not look like a poll, it looks more like an editorial...
    Posted by fivekatz


    It was intentional and a counter to softy's poll that had lies in the question.

    Softy said VTek caught 33% of our games, when in fact, Vtek caught 40% of our innings and started 42% or our games (more than all but 2 MLB back-up catchers).

    I thought I'd start a poll that puts an opposite spin on the question to see how much of a difference it makes. At least my "spin" does not contain lies or distortions.

    I know softy's many monikers will add 10 votes to the "no" answers, but I'm pretty sure the vote total will not be the same as his propaganda poll.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    I think only if Papi walks does it make sense to carry three catchers, but even in that scenario, you want Lavarnway to get better at the position, so he should be behind the plate at least 40% of the games.  Why bring Varitek back to catch 20 games?  He's not a smart choice for a late inning defensive replacement, because that is when controlling the running game is most important, and he could play a much more important role on another team, even as a backup.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    One factor we are forgettng is that Tek is worth a type B pick. That seals the deal for me. If not for that I would sign him for $1 mil just for insurance but I think he might get a little more than that. He's worth it.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom



    That certainly is a factor. We know how much this organization values comp picks.

    If we keep Papi, I am certain that will be the end of Vtek's Boston career. We'll go with Salty and Lava, and maybe pick up a vet later in the season, if things are shaky. I'd still prefer Vtek in this situation, but realize it is ihgly unlikely.

    If Papi walks, I see Lava being the DH at least half the time, and catcher maybe 25-35 games. This would open the door for a back-up catcher for 30-40 games. This is where I see Vtek as a more possible option.

    Here are other options (note the "*" means there is a team option). I think all options will be picked up by the teams, but some could be traded. I think TB will take the option and deal Shoppach. I think Pitt will keep Snyder since they lose Doumit. StL will keep Molina.

    Doumit can play OF as well, but he is not a very good hitter and has never had a a lot of PAs in even one season. Ramon Hernandez would be a nice pick-up, especially if Papi walks, but I think he will get $4-6M/yr and we can not spend that much on a catcher when we already have salty and Lava. Laird & Molina are horrible hitters, but would likely bring stability to the staff. To me, they are Kevin Cash types. I just don't see much to choose from here...

    Catchers
    Rod Barajas LAD
    Henry Blanco ARI
    Ramon Castro CWS
    Ryan Doumit PIT
    Ramon Hernandez CIN
    Jason Kendall KC
    Gerald Laird STL
    Jose Molina TOR
    Yadier Molina STL *  ($7M or a .75M buyout)
    Dioner Navarro LAD
    Jorge Posada NYY
    Ivan Rodriguez WAS
    Brian Schneider PHI
    Kelly Shoppach TB *  ($3.2M or a .3M buyout)
    Chris Snyder PIT *    ($6.75M or a .75M buyout)
    Matt Treanor KC
    Jason Varitek BOS


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    I think only if Papi walks does it make sense to carry three catchers, but even in that scenario, you want Lavarnway to get better at the position, so he should be behind the plate at least 40% of the games.  Why bring Varitek back to catch 20 games?  He's not a smart choice for a late inning defensive replacement, because that is when controlling the running game is most important, and he could play a much more important role on another team, even as a backup.
    Posted by slomag


    If it "makes sense" to have a 3rd catcher, then it should be a very cheap one, right?  If it is someone other than Vtek, how many games would that guy get?  Also, have you seen VTek's numbers with our pen, especially Bard?

    I don't see any catcher being used as a late inning defensive replacement, unless we need to PH for one. We'd lose the DH if Lava is forced to catch, but that is a minor and rare chance.

    I see it this way, if Papi walks:
    Salty catches Lester, Buch and a new guy (or Wake). (95-110 games)
    Lava catches a new guy. (30-35 games)
    Vtek catches Beckett and maybe a game here or there. (30-35 games)

    If you see Beckett's numbers with and without VTek, you'd think $1M is a bargain. Plus, if Salty or Lava gets hurt or stinks up the places, VTek can catch 60-60 games.



     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    The secret ballots are coming fast and furious now, with no comments to show who is voting.

    Curious.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxnsl. Show maxnsl's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    I really dont want Tek back and its not because of his hitting. He is terrible defensively, cant throw anyone out, and it seems he wasnt much good in the clubhouse. Yeah maybe Beckett is more comfortable with him but i would bet he and Beckett were a big attitude problem. Plus he is a terrible hitter!
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxnsl. Show maxnsl's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Although if you are talking Laird or Shoppach maybe i would have to rethink. What are some people thinking?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher? : If it "makes sense" to have a 3rd catcher, then it should be a very cheap one, right?  If it is someone other than Vtek, how many games would that guy get?  Also, have you seen VTek's numbers with our pen, especially Bard? I don't see any catcher being used as a late inning defensive replacement, unless we need to PH for one. We'd lose the DH if Lava is forced to catch, but that is a minor and rare chance. I see it this way, if Papi walks: Salty catches Lester, Buch and a new guy (or Wake). (95-110 games) Lava catches a new guy. (30-35 games) Vtek catches Beckett and maybe a game here or there. (30-35 games) If you see Beckett's numbers with and without VTek, you'd think $1M is a bargain. Plus, if Salty or Lava gets hurt or stinks up the places, VTek can catch 60-60 games.
    Posted by moonslav59

    What good does it do Lavarnway to catch 30 games?  His skills will regress rather than improve.  

    And on the flip-side, what difference does it make how good his numbers are with the pen, if he's only catching 30 games, and not coming in late.

    Basically, you're making a good argument for him to play a much more important role than even you want him to.  Let him do it with another team - he's not a good fit for this one.




     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Ramon Hernandez

    2010 PA 352 BA .297 OBP .364 OPS .792 CS% 34 PB 2
    2011 PA 328 BA .282 OBP .341 OPS .781 CS% 37 PB 3

    Reds dubious to offer arbitration as they are deep with quality catching

    Despite false claims from Moonslob, Hernandez market is likely to be 3 to 4, max, see Buck. Unlike washed up 40 year old backup catcher Varitek, who has been unable to finish either of the last two seasons despite just 53 games a season average, 35 year old Hernandez is still solid in all catcher skillsets. Blocks and throws very well and provides quality plate appearances. Would be the perfect 100 to 110 game value starter on a Red Sox team that did not have a MLB level defensive catcher. Salty and Lavarnway would compete to see if either is capable of being long term Red Sox future catcher.

    Varitek had 6 passed balls and CS 14% and OBP in last 2 years is under .300. Completely washed up at 40 years old, as all can see in the last month or two of the last 2 seasons.

    Salty had 26 passed balls and an OBP of .288 in 2011. He currently is not MLB material as a starter, and unless he shows a strong spring, Lavarnway should start the season as the #2 catcher (60 to 70 games and 30 to 40 reps opposite Ortiz at DH) 

    If Reds don't offer arbitration to Hernandez, Red Sox should offer Hernandez 3 to 4M option 2 @ 3-4M 1.5 buyout.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher? : That certainly is a factor. We know how much this organization values comp picks. If we keep Papi, I am certain that will be the end of Vtek's Boston career. We'll go with Salty and Lava, and maybe pick up a vet later in the season, if things are shaky. I'd still prefer Vtek in this situation, but realize it is ihgly unlikely. If Papi walks, I see Lava being the DH at least half the time, and catcher maybe 25-35 games. This would open the door for a back-up catcher for 30-40 games. This is where I see Vtek as a more possible option. Here are other options (note the "*" means there is a team option). I think all options will be picked up by the teams, but some could be traded. I think TB will take the option and deal Shoppach. I think Pitt will keep Snyder since they lose Doumit. StL will keep Molina. Doumit can play OF as well, but he is not a very good hitter and has never had a a lot of PAs in even one season. Ramon Hernandez would be a nice pick-up, especially if Papi walks, but I think he will get $4-6M/yr and we can not spend that much on a catcher when we already have salty and Lava. Laird & Molina are horrible hitters, but would likely bring stability to the staff. To me, they are Kevin Cash types. I just don't see much to choose from here... Catchers Rod Barajas LAD Henry Blanco ARI Ramon Castro CWS Ryan Doumit PIT Ramon Hernandez CIN Jason Kendall KC Gerald Laird STL Jose Molina TOR Yadier Molina STL *  ($7M or a .75M buyout) Dioner Navarro LAD Jorge Posada NYY Ivan Rodriguez WAS Brian Schneider PHI Kelly Shoppach TB *  ($3.2M or a .3M buyout) Chris Snyder PIT *    ($6.75M or a .75M buyout) Matt Treanor KC Jason Varitek BOS
    Posted by moonslav59


    How about I-Rod as a third catcher - a veteran, future HOFer, still has a great arm, and has accepted a very limited role in Washington.  He may still be able to hit lefties - can work the count anyway.  



     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Hey silly clown...

    zero out of 76 voters have said catcher is the top priority. Since you now value this boards opinion so much, what gives?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Hey idiot, Overwhelming majority realize Varitek has been washed up for years.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    Ramon Hernandez 2010 PA 352 BA .297 OBP .364 OPS .792 CS% 34 PB 2 2011 PA 328 BA .282 OBP .341 OPS .781 CS% 37 PB 3 Reds dubious to offer arbitration as they are deep with quality catching Despite false claims from Moonslob, Hernandez market is likely to be 3 to 4, max, see Buck. Unlike washed up 40 year old backup catcher Varitek, who has been unable to finish either of the last two seasons despite just 53 games a season average, 35 year old Hernandez is still solid in all catcher skillsets. Blocks and throws very well and provides quality plate appearances. Would be the perfect 100 to 110 game value starter on a Red Sox team that did not have a MLB level defensive catcher. Salty and Lavarnway would compete to see if either is capable of being long term Red Sox future catcher. Varitek had 6 passed balls and CS 14% and OBP in last 2 years is under .300. Completely washed up at 40 years old, as all can see in the last month or two of the last 2 seasons. Salty had 26 passed balls and an OBP of .288 in 2011. He currently is not MLB material as a starter, and unless he shows a strong spring, Lavarnway should start the season as the #2 catcher (60 to 70 games and 30 to 40 reps opposite Ortiz at DH)  If Reds don't offer arbitration to Hernandez, Red Sox should offer Hernandez 3 to 4M option 2 @ 3-4M 1.5 buyout.
    Posted by hankwilliams

    Salty had 26 passed balls in 850 innings.  He had 10 in 1500 innings previously - let Wake walk and it's a different story.  Also, Salty only had a .288 OBP, but he slugged .481 against righties.  If Papi walks, I'm not prepared to lose Salty's bat too.


     
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