Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher? : He won't hit any better than Vtek. 2011: .660 2010: .567 2009: .626 2008: .727 2007: .627 I'm not sure how well he handles pitchers. He had the exact same CERA as Y. Molina in 2011 (3.80), but caught mostly McClellan, Lohse, and Westbrook and had only 27 PAs with Carpenter. His sample sizes were small. in a little larger sample size with Detroit in 2010 and about equal innings as Avila. He had a 4.11 CERA to Avila's 4.47, but Baird did catch slightly more of Verlander. (Also more of Porcello, but less of Bonderman, Galarraga, & Scherzer)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    But he doesn't carry a 'C' on his chest. Stands for Captain by the way. And Varitek did nothing to earn that, thus he needs to be cut and will be. 
    This will be an easy organizational decision.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jamminjim. Show jamminjim's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]Choose wisely...
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I say go with the same 3 that we ended the season with and tell teck he is back up to both catchers and right handed bat off the bench and back up dh and let him stay around for his leadership and his ability to become a couch in the future!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jamminjim. Show jamminjim's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    1Yadier MolinaSTL475551453211465453344.305.349.465.814
    2Alex AvilaDET4646313733419823173131.295.389.506.895
    3Miguel MonteroARI493651393611886114797.282.351.469.820
    4Brian McCannATL466511261902471325789.270.351.466.817
    5Matt WietersBAL500721312802268104884.262.328.450.778
    6Carlos SantanaCLE5528413235227795397133.239.351.457.808
    7Kurt SuzukiOAK460541092601444223864.237.301.385.686
    8John BuckFLA4664110615116570154115.227.316.367.683
    9Miguel OlivoSEA4775410719119626520140.224.253.388.641
    JUST WANTED TO ADD SOME STATS!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    moon is it not safe to say that if we all hold CERA as dear as you do that that is Tek's only asset?  Carrying three catchers is silly if one of them cannot run or hit and catches under 60 games.... he is taking up valuable space all for the sake of -60 games in which he might help shave a run off a starting pitchers game... a starter who after 5 innings is gone.... at the same time we may lose a game because of aggressive running by the opposing team. Our 3rd string catcher cannot throw anyone out.


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    moon is it not safe to say that if we all hold CERA as dear as you do that that is Tek's only asset?  

    1) It's not just CERA as a measurement of the intangibles a catcher brings to a game.
    2) Although it is hard to think of VTek's offense as an asset, the fact that his 2011 OPS was higher than 22 MLB team catcher OPS and ranked 16th best among starting MLb catchers. Remember, he was our back-up.
    3) His wealth of experience and knowledge of opposing batters makes him worth close to $1M just as a coach.

    Carrying three catchers is silly if one of them cannot run or hit and catches under 60 games.... he is taking up valuable space all for the sake of -60 games in which he might help shave a run off a starting pitchers game... a starter who after 5 innings is gone.... at the same time we may lose a game because of aggressive running by the opposing team. Our 3rd string catcher cannot throw anyone out.

    I said Vtek makes most sense if Papi walks and Lava is the primary DH and 3rd catcher. Salty also can play some 1B, giving VTek a chance to catch 35-40 games with no injuries to lava or Salty. Remember, Salty burnt out after playing about 80- 90 games. He could do the same in 2012.

    Posted by BurritoT
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Give Salty and Lavarnway the job and run with it. It is time to move on from Tek. Give him a big retirement day during the season and offer him a minor league coaching position to see if he is worthy of moving up in the organization as a coach and ultimately a manager.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]Choose wisely...
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Resembles an ABC/Washington Post poll.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher? : That certainly is a factor. We know how much this organization values comp picks. If we keep Papi, I am certain that will be the end of Vtek's Boston career. We'll go with Salty and Lava, and maybe pick up a vet later in the season, if things are shaky. I'd still prefer Vtek in this situation, but realize it is ihgly unlikely. If Papi walks, I see Lava being the DH at least half the time, and catcher maybe 25-35 games. This would open the door for a back-up catcher for 30-40 games. This is where I see Vtek as a more possible option. Here are other options (note the "*" means there is a team option). I think all options will be picked up by the teams, but some could be traded. I think TB will take the option and deal Shoppach. I think Pitt will keep Snyder since they lose Doumit. StL will keep Molina. Doumit can play OF as well, but he is not a very good hitter and has never had a a lot of PAs in even one season. Ramon Hernandez would be a nice pick-up, especially if Papi walks, but I think he will get $4-6M/yr and we can not spend that much on a catcher when we already have salty and Lava. Laird & Molina are horrible hitters, but would likely bring stability to the staff. To me, they are Kevin Cash types. I just don't see much to choose from here... Catchers Rod Barajas LAD Henry Blanco ARI Ramon Castro CWS Ryan Doumit PIT Ramon Hernandez CIN Jason Kendall KC Gerald Laird STL Jose Molina TOR Yadier Molina STL *  ($7M or a .75M buyout) Dioner Navarro LAD Jorge Posada NYY Ivan Rodriguez WAS Brian Schneider PHI Kelly Shoppach TB *  ($3.2M or a .3M buyout) Chris Snyder PIT *    ($6.75M or a .75M buyout) Matt Treanor KC Jason Varitek BOS
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Yadier Molina is not much to choose from? He's a perfect fit for Boston and just 29. Of course, Salty would have to go which would not such a bad thing given his inability to catch the ball.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher? : Yadier Molina is not much to choose from? He's a perfect fit for Boston and just 29. Of course, Salty would have to go which would not such a bad thing given his inability to catch the ball.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    St Louis has a team option on Molina - I don't see them letting him walk.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Does it make sense to sign this catcher? : I say go with the same 3 that we ended the season with and tell teck he is back up to both catchers and right handed bat off the bench and back up dh and let him stay around for his leadership and his ability to become a couch in the future!
    Posted by jamminjim[/QUOTE]

    And an American League team that keeps 12 pitchers can afford to keep three catchers, leaving only 2 other bench spots? Not going to happen.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Cardinals just picked up Molina's option.  So therefore, he is off of the free agency listing.  

    Not much talent free agency catchers on the list.  Stick with Salty and Larvanway. Boston isnt going to waste alot of times comparing these available free agents to Salty and Larvanway cuz half of these free agents are older than 34 years of age!!

    Worry about pitchings first, RF, DH and 3B.  
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher? : It was intentional and a counter to softy's poll that had lies in the question. Softy said VTek caught 33% of our games, when in fact, Vtek caught 40% of our innings and started 42% or our games (more than all but 2 MLB back-up catchers). I thought I'd start a poll that puts an opposite spin on the question to see how much of a difference it makes. At least my "spin" does not contain lies or distortions. I know softy's many monikers will add 10 votes to the "no" answers, but I'm pretty sure the vote total will not be the same as his propaganda poll.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon,
    Still not sure why you feel the need to validate your stuff and enter into a debate with softy...I'd prefer that your motives for starting a thread would be based on soley on the content being a relevent disscussion point vs another in a long and frankly tiresome line of post and opins were the two of you refer to one another and call each other out...It's gets old after awhile...
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher? : moon, Still not sure why you feel the need to validate your stuff and enter into a debate with softy...I'd prefer that your motives for starting a thread would be based on soley on the content being a relevent disscussion point vs another in a long and frankly tiresome line of post and opins were the two of you refer to one another and call each other out...It's gets old after awhile...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    I'm willing to respond to that from MY point of view. 

    I agree, it does get old, but you're barking up the wrong tree here by criticizing Moon.  Instead go after Softy.  He's they guy who's been preaching the same half-truths for months here over and over and over and over and over and over and over regarding 'tek, Wake, and even Ellsbury (until Ells sent him back to his hole).  Does "reverse pivot" mean anything to you? 

    Moon's only "crime" has been to continually resort to telling the truth about 'tek's contributions, which is a good thing because if Softy's "spin" stands unchallenged his half-truths become the truth to many people.  Look how many people bought into Softy's malignment of Ellsbury!

    I say, Go for it Moon.  Continue to refute Softy's misrepresentations of the truth, pessimistic posts, and portable goal posts. I have neither the time nor the inclination to do the research (people like me are something Softy depends on) but I'm glad you do!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    It's about defending the truth. I may have put a slant on the answer choices, but at least I didn't lie as softy did in his poll. I thought this poll might show the degree by which propaganda plays in the minds of board members ansd show that when asked in a certain way, many fans are still willing to give VTek a 1 year shot, especially if Papi walks and Lava goes to DH.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]It's about defending the truth. I may have put a slant on the answer choices, but at least I didn't lie as softy did in his poll. I thought this poll might show the degree by which propaganda plays in the minds of board members ansd show that when asked in a certain way, many fans are still willing to give VTek a 1 year shot, especially if Papi walks and Lava goes to DH.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Moon - Lavarnwary will never be the full time DH, not at 24. He'll catch, and DH if he makes the roster.

    Their roster get's a lot more flexible by bringing in Cuddyer as their RF/3B/2B/1B
    and not signing Ortiz. Roster flexibility is diminished with Ortiz there. They can get Cuddyer and maybe someone like Willingham for similar costs.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Carry three catchers is a bad idea.  The third catcher is taking up a roster spot where you could possible have only two to three bench players.  
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dillontt. Show dillontt's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Carrying three catchers is not a bad idea as Lavarnway develops, adding someone like David Ross from Atlanta who seems to have a good eye at the plate and handle a staff might be a good option.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]Carrying three catchers is not a bad idea as Lavarnway develops, adding someone like David Ross from Atlanta who seems to have a good eye at the plate and handle a staff might be a good option.
    Posted by dillontt[/QUOTE]

    And again, you are left with only two other bench players, a back up outfielder and back up outfielder.

    With three catchers:
    2 Backups for 1 position.
    2 Backups for 7 positions.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    If Papi walks, and Lavarnway DH's, a third catcher gives you the flexibility of hitting or running for Salty (or allowing for the possibility of injury) without losing the DH.  
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]Yes, if Papi walks it makes total sense. We can pinch run or PH for Salty, Lava or whoever the 3rd catcher is and not have to worry about getting in trouble with an in game injury to the catcher. I could see Lava being the DH for 120-135 games in 2012, and maybe catch 20-25 games. Salty catches 90-100 and the 3rd catcher 40-50. I'm not a big fan of Ryan Doumit, but he can play OF as well. Doumit hits RHPs better than lefties, so he doesn't match up well with Salty, but his .798 OPS vs RHPs is better than we had in LF and RF this year. One reason I like Vtek as the 3rd catcher is that he does very well vs LHPs. Tito never used a L/R platoon, but rather used the "personal caddy" method. I never liked that plan as a way to get Salty (and other before)accustomed to all pitchers. Maybe the new manager will will "wise up". VTek vs LHPs/RHPs: '11  .748 / .710 '10  .868 / .733 '09  .807 / .666 Salty vs RHPs / LHPs '11  .786 / .635 Career  .772 / .604 Both catchers have a wide disparity, and a good manager should notice it. 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Moon, Lavarnway's been catching 50% of his games the last couple of years.  He's in Venezuela right now working on his catching.  Why limit him to 20-25 games?  If he can be an average MLB catcher, or even slightly below average, he can potentially have one of the highest values on the team - even if you don't like that route for the Sox, every effort should be made to cultivate his catching skills, so he can be traded for a much greater return.  If he's a DH, he can still be valuable, but a fraction of what he is worth as a catcher.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Do not sign a catcher.  Larvarnway gives the Sox flexability because he is a right handed power bat and can catch.  If he catches 33% of the games and does some DH and pinch hitting it adds value to the team.  The Sox need to go younger and cheaper so if they need to add a player or two at the deadline they can.  Tek is not worth the money at this point in his career.   The Sox will have two young catchers that should get better.  I think its a no brainer. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    Yes, if Papi walks it makes total sense. We can pinch run or PH for Salty, Lava or whoever the 3rd catcher is and not have to worry about getting in trouble with an in game injury to the catcher. I could see Lava being the DH for 120-135 games in 2012, and maybe catch 20-25 games. Salty catches 90-100 and the 3rd catcher 40-50. I'm not a big fan of Ryan Doumit, but he can play OF as well. Doumit hits RHPs better than lefties, so he doesn't match up well with Salty, but his .798 OPS vs RHPs is better than we had in LF and RF this year.

    One reason I like Vtek as the 3rd catcher is that he does very well vs LHPs. Tito never used a L/R platoon, but rather used the "personal caddy" method. I never liked that plan as a way to get Salty (and other before)accustomed to all pitchers. Maybe the new manager will will "wise up".

    VTek vs LHPs/RHPs:
    '11  .748 / .710
    '10  .868 / .733
    '09  .807 / .666

    Salty vs RHPs / LHPs
    '11  .786 / .635
    Career  .772 / .604

    Both catchers have a wide disparity, and a good manager should notice it. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    What good does it do Lavarnway to catch 30 games?  His skills will regress rather than improve.  

    Ideally, Lava should catch 120+ games in 2011 at some level. However, I believe his bat is ready now, and this team needs to find ways to go cheap at some position. If we choose DH to "go light" and let Papi walk, I think VTek would be a perfect fit here.
    1)
    Lava can get his PAs at DH and slowly work into becoming a MLB catcher.
    2) Salty is still a huge question in my mind. Saying he can go 90-100 and do well is not the same as him doing it in 2012.
    3) VTek hits LHPs very well. Salty does not.
    4) VTek knows the staff inside and out and has a proven record of getting the most out of about 90% of our pitchers.

    And on the flip-side, what difference does it make how good his numbers are with the pen, if he's only catching 30 games, and not coming in late.

    I presume the 30 games he catches will include some pen innings.
    Are you talking about Lava or Vtek now?

    Basically, you're making a good argument for him to play a much more important role than even you want him to.  Let him do it with another team - he's not a good fit for this one.

    Lava or Vtek?

    I don't trust Salty. That is one reason I want a cheap vet "just in case".
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]It's about defending the truth. I may have put a slant on the answer choices, but at least I didn't lie as softy did in his poll. I thought this poll might show the degree by which propaganda plays in the minds of board members ansd show that when asked in a certain way, many fans are still willing to give VTek a 1 year shot, especially if Papi walks and Lava goes to DH.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Moon,
    I enjoy coming to this site to talk all things baseball and never have I ever felt the need to expose another poster nor engage in fruitless debates...To each his own I guess. Nor do I try to keep straight all of the mulitple personalities of the members of this site...you must find some level of enjoyment bantering back and forth with softy or hankwilliams, myself I just ignore him as a rule. Becasue clearly he's role playing and doesn't reuly believe what he writes...Thus I never engage him in back and forth's...life's to short...

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?

    In Response to Re: Does it make sense to sign this catcher?:
    [QUOTE]Yes, if Papi walks it makes total sense. We can pinch run or PH for Salty, Lava or whoever the 3rd catcher is and not have to worry about getting in trouble with an in game injury to the catcher. I could see Lava being the DH for 120-135 games in 2012, and maybe catch 20-25 games. Salty catches 90-100 and the 3rd catcher 40-50. I'm not a big fan of Ryan Doumit, but he can play OF as well. Doumit hits RHPs better than lefties, so he doesn't match up well with Salty, but his .798 OPS vs RHPs is better than we had in LF and RF this year. One reason I like Vtek as the 3rd catcher is that he does very well vs LHPs. Tito never used a L/R platoon, but rather used the "personal caddy" method. I never liked that plan as a way to get Salty (and other before)accustomed to all pitchers. Maybe the new manager will will "wise up". VTek vs LHPs/RHPs: '11  .748 / .710 '10  .868 / .733 '09  .807 / .666 Salty vs RHPs / LHPs '11  .786 / .635 Career  .772 / .604 Both catchers have a wide disparity, and a good manager should notice it. 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon, I think Lav might be best suited at catcher next season because he will probably do as well or better than Salty and Tek as a whole.  If Papi walks I can't see us placing that kind of offensive pressure on Ryan for a couple of years at least.  If we can sign Cuddyer and possibly a better RH OF bat off the bench to split time with Reddick or Kalish, Mike could easily be our DH and give us some/most of Papis offense back.
     

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