Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways? : If you are truly serious, and you don't see his lack of managing abilities, there is nothing I can say or do to convince you that he's a poor manager. I don't have the desire to try to educate you to my way of thinking. You watch the same games that I watch, we simply see them from a different perspective.  I listened to the 1946 World Series on the radio with my Dad.  Being from Cape Cod originally, we, my Dad, my brother and Iwere NY Giant fans in the 50s. When, as a teenager, I read, in the Boston news paper, a column by a writer named John Gillooly(?) saying that the Giants paid rent to the Yankees to use Yankee Stadium on Sundays, I became an instant Cleveland Brown fan. I too have loved baseball since I could walk. Just as there is no way you could convince me that Francona is even a decent major league manager, I couldn't convince you that he isn't. It's my opinion and your opinion. That's all it is.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    I can give you all a boneheaded example from last night. Pulling Beckett after 103 pitches, and this obsesssion with the 330 pitch rule over 3 starts.
    He's a numbers/stat's manager, not a tactician or situational guy. He manages the games on paper, not on the field.
    He probably leads the league in fantasy baseball!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    Spaceman, I don't buy into the pressure cooker premise. I don't care what happens in the clubhouse. I care what happens within the time the lineup is handed in and the end of the game. During that time, it's my opinion that Francona is a miserable failure. I'm serious when I say the team has had to win in spite of him far too often. Luckily, the talent has been good enough to make up for his deficiencies some of the time. I truly believe the Sox should have been considered a dynasty over the last 7 plus years.
    I was ecstatic in 2004 when they won the WS. I was also dumbfounded by many moves he made or didn't make that year.  He hasn't changed.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways? : I can give you all a boneheaded example from last night. Pulling Beckett after 103 pitches, and this obsesssion with the 330 pitch rule over 3 starts. He's a numbers/stat's manager, not a tactician or situational guy. He manages the games on paper, not on the field. He probably leads the league in fantasy baseball!
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    OK.  So, in consideration of all I have said to Bosox in this thread.  I offer that your critique, while certainly not without some merit of consideration, is not as fortified as you make it sound.  It is May.  Beckett, of all pitchers, should, in many's eyes including mine, be handled very carefully.  Last year aside, in both 08 and 09, he was pitching just fine until his body broke down and that was that.  He is not an iron horse.  You can't ride this guy too hard all season.  The easier choice, and perhaps one that would have been more condusive to nailing down the win (though when one is used to around 100 pitches, who knows what happens after that), would be to ride Josh another inning.  But, and this is where his detractors and supporters really differ, Francona was managing in that instance with the big picture in mind.  He was being careful, obviously in your eyes too careful, with a pitcher with a career-long history of breaking down physically at some point in a season.  Is it right to question this judgement call?  Absolutely.  Beckett looked like he could have gone another inning easy.  But to call it 'bone-headed' is an overstatement that does not take into consideration all that Francona is taking into consideration in that decision.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]Spaceman, I don't buy into the pressure cooker premise. I don't care what happens in the clubhouse. I care what happens within the time the lineup is handed in and the end of the game. During that time, it's my opinion that Francona is a miserable failure. I'm serious when I say the team has had to win in spite of him far too often. Luckily, the talent has been good enough to make up for his deficiencies some of the time. I truly believe the Sox should have been considered a dynasty over the last 7 plus years. I was ecstatic in 2004 when they won the WS. I was also dumbfounded by many moves he made or didn't make that year.  He hasn't changed.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Thats cool man.  Just wish I knew what you actually basing this premise on.  Guess I'll never know.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    I guess some of us believe that the current game is more important than a game in September that hasn't happened yet. It might rain that day in September..Wink
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

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    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]I guess some of us believe that the current game is more important than a game in September that hasn't happened yet. It might rain that day in September..
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    I grant you that my friend.  
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    As I sit an read this I have only one comment.
    One side says 
    He is far too concerned with the 330 pitch count and a game in May is as important at one in Sept because it might rain that day?????????????

    The other side explains the 330 pitch count situation succinctly.
    Which is what all teams do to some extent with every single pitcher.

    However the RS and Francona are stupid and wrong for doing something every single team does.

    Did I get the thread of that conversation???

    Then I still get no answer on whom has been better?
    See if he is that bad then there has to be at least one or two who have been better since 2004. The rationale is if there is no one you can come up with then he must be the best that MLB has to offer. Considering in all the lists that the experts came up with last year and Francona landed some where between first and 8th IMHO he must be doing a lot of things right.

    However the resident experts say he suks so then he must suk. I guess!!!!!!!!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from The-Babe-1. Show The-Babe-1's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    I think the author of this thread does.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    Another hate-filled, disgustingly insensitive, non-sensical comment by the Babe, disguised (poorly) as clever one-liner.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    The-Babe-1.  Here today, gone tomorrow.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways? : I can give you all a boneheaded example from last night. Pulling Beckett after 103 pitches, and this obsesssion with the 330 pitch rule over 3 starts. He's a numbers/stat's manager, not a tactician or situational guy. He manages the games on paper, not on the field. He probably leads the league in fantasy baseball!
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Alibiike:
    This is classic 20/20 hindsight.  If he left Beckett in and he gave up a run, you would have said he should have gone to the pen.  The fact is, he handled it perfectly and Paps gave up a bloop.  The pitcher balked, not Tito.  There is nothing that anyone did wrong.  Sometimes moves don't work out.  Beckett gave up a hit in the inning and probably already knew that any trouble would have been the end of his night.  Had he continued, he would have had to bear down to get through the inning and would have been closer to 120 pitches than 100.  When Beckett pitched 125 a couple of starts ago, people went nuts because that was to many.  To all you Tito haters, where is the frigging line so we know from now on?  Jesus, you guys kill me with this total nonsense.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    yup Hindsight is 20/20  If he left Beckett in maybe the game was won 1-0  maybe Beckett gives up a 2 run shot and we lose 2-1, maybe we go down 2-1 but that sparks the team and the bottom of the ninth is played out differently and we win 4-2......who knows.

    I do know this however, we won the game, and Beckett is fresh for New York. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways? : Alibiike: This is classic 20/20 hindsight.  If he left Beckett in and he gave up a run, you would have said he should have gone to the pen.  The fact is, he handled it perfectly and Paps gave up a bloop.  The pitcher balked, not Tito.  There is nothing that anyone did wrong.  Sometimes moves don't work out.  Beckett gave up a hit in the inning and probably already knew that any trouble would have been the end of his night.  Had he continued, he would have had to bear down to get through the inning and would have been closer to 120 pitches than 100.  When Beckett pitched 125 a couple of starts ago, people went nuts because that was to many.  To all you Tito haters, where is the frigging line so we know from now on?  Jesus, you guys kill me with this total nonsense.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]

    it really is just trolling. When asked for some specifics, there were none given except  the "If you cant see it" BS. If you want to be treated like someone that actually loves and knows the game of baseball 1941, then engage in a light-hearted debate with him. If not, your just one of the lonley trolls roaming this board IMO.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    I think posters take a stance and stay with it. If they come up short, they either man up to it or fade away until they can be proven right. The egos on this board illustrate why men (and woman) end up having to go to war. It's human nature.

    I was against the Oki signing. Still am. I don't think Boston did him any favors continuing to pitch in Fenway - against A.L. competition, when he'd be so much more effective in the N.L. as more of an unknown.

    His roster spot was blocking Hill;. But the DL's (?) of Wheeler/Jenks solved that issue...for now. [Hill is out of options].

    He's been in regression and Tito still is wary about using him in critical situations.
    Otherwise, he'd have faced those two lefty hitters in the 8th yesterday and Paps could have pitched his 9th.

    Oki gutted out a 2-inning performance and gets applause. He gave up two hits and two walks to a poor MN line-up. He was inches from coughing it up. If he did, this board would have been drowned out by anti-Oki threads and COMA posts for using him.

    I see Oki has come up with a cutter/slider that looks to give him extra life. Good for him. I credit him for re-inventing himself. He is a human 3-2 count who needed a put-away pitch. If it works out, I'll be the first to congratulate him.

    I do think Tito needs use him in crucial situations. It's not that I now trust Oki. I don't. But the FO has to make some tough decisions when Jenks/Wheeler return. So, why not give Oki his chance to stick or fail.
    After what he did for Boston in 2007, he's earned that right.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    Harness:

    Your post is what I'm talking about.  You raise reasonable concerns backed up by facts.  it is a breath of fresh air.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways? : What does this post even mean?  This is what I'm talkiing about.  A reasonable discussion gets highjacked by doofuses...Or is that dufye in the plural?
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]doofi, I think.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

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    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways? : I can give you all a boneheaded example from last night. Pulling Beckett after 103 pitches, and this obsesssion with the 330 pitch rule over 3 starts. He's a numbers/stat's manager, not a tactician or situational guy. He manages the games on paper, not on the field. He probably leads the league in fantasy baseball!
    Posted by Alibiike


    Alibiike:
    This is classic 20/20 hindsight.  If he left Beckett in and he gave up a run, you would have said he should have gone to the pen.  The fact is, he handled it perfectly and Paps gave up a bloop.  The pitcher balked, not Tito.  There is nothing that anyone did wrong.  Sometimes moves don't work out.  Beckett gave up a hit in the inning and probably already knew that any trouble would have been the end of his night.  Had he continued, he would have had to bear down to get through the inning and would have been closer to 120 pitches than 100.  When Beckett pitched 125 a couple of starts ago, people went nuts because that was to many.  To all you Tito haters, where is the frigging line so we know from now on?  Jesus, you guys kill me with this total nonsense.



    Jim to add to your post, my problem with criticisms of Francona that alibi made is that they make it sound like Francona is out on an island by himself with these types of decision -- pitch counts, for example.

    They refuse to acknowledge that this is how the game is managed today. At 103 pitches, should Beckett have been brought back for the eighth. I think yes. I'm not for blowing out pitchers' arms, but I think at 103 pitches, he still has another inning in him and I think the 7-1-1 format is overdone.

    I also think that using relievers for these one-inning stints can a bullpen. If a starter struggles and goes five, you're going to see at least three more pitchers if not four used to finish the game, even if they're all lights out.

    But that's just my opinion. I understand that all managers use pitch counts and basically use the bullpens the same way. It's simply how the game has changed. Too many of these critics refuse acknowledge how the game as changed. They're stuck in the days of four-man rotations, when a starter would start 40 games and pitch 275 innings or more and throw 15 completa games and relievers would routinely pitch three innings of relief.

    They don't like how pitchers are used, so they rip Francona to make it appear as if he's by himself in this philosophy.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from The-Babe-1. Show The-Babe-1's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]Another hate-filled, disgustingly insensitive, non-sensical comment by the Babe, disguised (poorly) as clever one-liner.

    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]

    It's not hate filled. I actually like you guys, you are quite amusing.

     
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    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]Another hate-filled, disgustingly insensitive, non-sensical comment by the Babe, disguised (poorly) as clever one-liner.

    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]

    It wasn't hate filled. I actually like you guys, I find you all quite amusing.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from losmediasrojas. Show losmediasrojas's posts

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    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways? : It wasn't hate filled. I actually like you guys, I find you all quite amusing.
    Posted by -The-Babe--1[/QUOTE]

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    Last season was a test of our patience. This season is a test of our spirits, our souls.  The team can and will get better. We must believe this, else there is no point in being here or in cheering on The Old Towne Team.

    I am determined to remain positive and learn from this experience as it teaches me as much about myself as it does about baseball.

    We are blessed to live in a great nation replete with bounty and fellowship, and blessed to have the Red Sox to represent us. 

    Their won-lost record should be the biggest disappointment that we ever face.  Sadly, it will not be.

    How we respond to adversity, or even success, will be a testament to our collective character as fans and as a nation.  Let us do each other proud, therefore, and refuse to troll, snipe, harp or insult. 

    Go Red Sox.

    Here endeth the lesson.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2009a. Show law2009a's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    m
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    The last two days illustrate what I'm talking about.  The Sox pitch well, hit in the clutch and play two all around good games and the board is basically silent.  When the Sox lose, many are on suicide watch.  Trade Lackey to Montreal, release him, blah blah blah.  Where is the love when things are going well?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    Maybe you could site specifics regarding exactly what Francona did, that isn't part of his job, to facilitate the last 2 wins. Most wins don't require a lot of managing, they take care of themselves. Francona is well paid to lead this team, to make positive decisions that positively affect the outcome of a questionable game and to try to be sure to hold on to a lead. 
    Why should anyone feel the need to express "The Love" when the team wins? Winning is expected and they are all paid very well to win.
    I truly believe that if the Red Sox were to bonus Francona for every game he actually has a positive affect on, and fine him for every game he has a negative affect on, he'd owe them quite a bit of money at season's end.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?

    In Response to Re: Does the Pendulum Swing Both Ways?:
    [QUOTE]Maybe you could site specifics regarding exactly what Francona did, that isn't part of his job, to facilitate the last 2 wins. Most wins don't require a lot of managing, they take care of themselves. Francona is well paid to lead this team, to make positive decisions that positively affect the outcome of a questionable game and to try to be sure to hold on to a lead.  Why should anyone feel the need to express "The Love" when the team wins? Winning is expected and they are all paid very well to win. I truly believe that if the Red Sox were to bonus Francona for every game he actually has a positive affect on, and fine him for every game he has a negative affect on, he'd owe them quite a bit of money at season's end.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    This is more of your drivel.  Francona is paid well.  Because of that fact, he is supposed to win.  When they lose, it is his fault because he is paid well.  Every team and manager is paid well...even those with half the payroll.  So the argument makes no sense.  The fact is Tito would have handled the Posada mess much better than Girardi did.  They might have still argued in private but putting the responsibility on the player to explain the situation is something Tito would never have done...and Tito had to deal with Manny!
     

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