Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    I have been very happy with John Farrell's strategy for most of the year, and he must have had his reasons for not walking the bases loaded in the last inning last night.    Yes, I have cussed him from the couch a few times on batting order choices, not bunting or not relieving a guy, but he has been in the ballpark with most of his decisions and has done a great job in the manager's seat.

    Last night, however, I jumped off my trusty couch to ask him, "why the heck are you not walking Encarnarcion after he Bautista made an out??" with first base open.   He had to pitch to one of these sluggers with Davis on second and no one out, but after Workman got Bautista.  Well, of course we know that  he did walk Encarnarcion so I calmed down for a second.  But, Davis had moved to third on Bautista's out which left second base open.

    I held up my four fingers to signal to Saltalamacchia just figuring they would then walk Laurie (sp?) to load the bases to give them a chance for either a force at home if they wanted to play the infield in or perhaps take their chances on a double play by playing the infield back some.

    But NO, NO and NO again to the walking of these guys who make up the middle of the Toronto lineup.   And, now this morning, I still cannot figure it out, but I have calmed down.

    Orsillo asked Remy if it was a good idea to fill the bases with walks, and Remy said something about "a possibility", but never came out and said "Yes".

    I am still pretty confused.  Any thoughts?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    Walking Lawrie would have been a bad move for a couple of reasons.

    1) It's a righty-righty matchup.  The on-deck hitter, Lind, is a lefty, and has better numbers than Lawrie.

    2) When you load the bases a walk brings in the winning run so it puts a lot of pressure on the pitcher to throw strikes.  With the base open at first you have a better chance of getting the hitter to swing at pitches off the plate.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Walking Lawrie would have been a bad move for a couple of reasons.

    1) It's a righty-righty matchup.  The on-deck hitter, Lind, is a lefty, and has better numbers than Lawrie.

    2) When you load the bases a walk brings in the winning run so it puts a lot of pressure on the pitcher to throw strikes.  With the base open at first you have a better chance of getting the hitter to swing at pitches off the plate.



    There's as much pressure with 2nd and 3rd and less than two outs. There's no force play. Also, Workman has excellent control. The other factor is that Lind, the hitter after Lawrie is very slow and they theoretically could have played the infield back to get a double play. They had to play the infield in with Lawrie once it became 2nd and 3rd.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to ADG's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Walking Lawrie would have been a bad move for a couple of reasons.

    1) It's a righty-righty matchup.  The on-deck hitter, Lind, is a lefty, and has better numbers than Lawrie.

    2) When you load the bases a walk brings in the winning run so it puts a lot of pressure on the pitcher to throw strikes.  With the base open at first you have a better chance of getting the hitter to swing at pitches off the plate.

     



    There's as much pressure with 2nd and 3rd and less than two outs. There's no force play. Also, Workman has excellent control. The other factor is that Lind, the hitter after Lawrie is very slow and they theoretically could have played the infield backto get a double play. They had to play the infield in with Lawrie once it became 2nd and 3rd.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    But Workman doesnt have to throw strikes on every pitch to Lawrie.  He can try to strike him out by making him to swing bad pitches.  Then if he does, Workman would have another chance to pitch around on the next batter.   If he fail on the second hitter, then he would have his last chance pitching against the possible last batter of the game or inning!!

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    If Drew some how came up with that ball it would have been a different story. Farrell plan work to some extent the ball was just a little to hardly hit.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    I have a different question. Why did they walk Encarnacion to set up the dp, then just let him walk into second base without so much as even looking at him?

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to TheExaminer's comment:

     

    I have a different question. Why did they walk Encarnacion to set up the dp, then just let him walk into second base without so much as even looking at him?

     

     



    Not going to take a chance on a bad throw, with the winning run on third.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to J-BAY's comment:

    In response to TheExaminer's comment:

     

    I have a different question. Why did they walk Encarnacion to set up the dp, then just let him walk into second base without so much as even looking at him?

     

     



    Not going to take a chance on a bad throw, with the winning run on third.

     



    Ok, but if setting up the DP is your strategy why do you abandon it after Encarnacion (sp?) "steals" second??

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    The moment with 2 nd and 3 rd, one out Lawrie at the plate. Rookie pitching. It's time for my best pen guy--Ue to close the inning. That's the big moment of the game---it's more important than a save--you have the chance to close out the inning-Ue high 5 's the dugout and the Sox score next inning.

    If they lose they lose but I like Ue and not a rookie in that situation--he had been warming. Now maybe JF wanted to see if Workman could get out of it. He gave you some tough grinding innings beginning in the 7 th--that was a lot to ask.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to J-BAY's comment:

    In response to TheExaminer's comment:

     

    I have a different question. Why did they walk Encarnacion to set up the dp, then just let him walk into second base without so much as even looking at him?

     

     



    Not going to take a chance on a bad throw, with the winning run on third.

     



    True, but I dont think Workman even looked over there J. Plus, Toronto seemed to know they werent going over there, so effectively, when you walk Enarnacion, youd have to Walk Lawrie. Workman was out there and the lefty was in the pen. You could go eitther way. The bottom line is, it should not have come to that. This offense has been basically anemic since the break. Now we have a LH Burhle tonight, and NYY coming in for the weekend. They are a different team than they were last time, and are red hot. Losing three of the next four is not out of the question, and all becasue they cant beat a last place team with a struggling rookie pitcher. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    Encarnacion was 10 feet off the 1B.  Should have just checked or looked at least.  No one was paying attention to him.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to MadMc44's comment:

    The moment with 2 nd and 3 rd, one out Lawrie at the plate. Rookie pitching. It's time for my best pen guy--Ue to close the inning. That's the big moment of the game---it's more important than a save--you have the chance to close out the inning-Ue high 5 's the dugout and the Sox score next inning.

    If they lose they lose but I like Ue and not a rookie in that situation--he had been warming. Now maybe JF wanted to see if Workman could get out of it. He gave you some tough grinding innings beginning in the 7 th--that was a lot to ask.




     

    I think Lawrie set Workman (and Lavarnway) up with that pathetic swing for strike 2.  He wanted another breaking ball and he got it, and Workman hung it to boot.  I think if Workman throws a fast ball there, especially up in the zome, he strikes Lawrie out and we might not be having this conversation.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to seannybboi's comment:

    Encarnacion was 10 feet off the 1B.  Should have just checked or looked at least.  No one was paying attention to him.  



    Exactly.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Walking Lawrie would have been a bad move for a couple of reasons.

    1) It's a righty-righty matchup.  The on-deck hitter, Lind, is a lefty, and has better numbers than Lawrie.

    2) When you load the bases a walk brings in the winning run so it puts a lot of pressure on the pitcher to throw strikes.  With the base open at first you have a better chance of getting the hitter to swing at pitches off the plate.



    You get manager of the day .....You are right on.....Bases loaded to risky and like you stated to much pressure on pitcher to throw strikes and you are only helping the batter.....

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to seannybboi's comment:

    Encarnacion was 10 feet off the 1B.  Should have just checked or looked at least.  No one was paying attention to him.  




     

    10 ft?  More like 20.  He wanted Workman to throw over there, either hoping to draw a balk or else get in a rundown with the speedy Davis on 3rd.  Workman needed to just step off and walk directly at him.  No throw.  If Davis takes off, easy throw to the plate.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to illinoisredsox's comment:

    I think Lawrie set Workman (and Lavarnway) up with that pathetic swing for strike 2.  He wanted another breaking ball and he got it, and Workman hung it to boot.  I think if Workman throws a fast ball there, especially up in the zome, he strikes Lawrie out and we might not be having this conversation.



    interesting thought

    it sure was a pathetic swing for strike 2

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to TheExaminer's comment:

    I have a different question. Why did they walk Encarnacion to set up the dp, then just let him walk into second base without so much as even looking at him? 



    Valid question.  But I think the main reason you're walking Encarnacion is because he's a more dangerous hitter than Lawrie or Lind.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    the correct play once second was stolen was to "pitch around" lawrie.  which workman was doing.  that strike 2 pitch was perfect 6 inches outside and below the zone.  he should have buzzed him inside with a FB on the next pitch and then went back to breaking ball out of the zone for strike 3.  workman and lavarnway made a terrible mistake on the next pitch by backing up the CB and left it hanging.  cannot blame the manager for that.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaysofYaz. Show DaysofYaz's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    If you saw the close up of Farrell and Nieves after the trip to the mound there was some discussion about how many he instructed Workman to walk. Farrell asked, "told him to walk one or two"...he held up his fingers while saying one or two. Apparently, that point was still in flux even after instructions were delivered to the mound. The decision could have been made either way but it is the outcome that is fueling this thread. I agree that it was a mistake to let the runner virtually walk to second after the intentional pass. At that point I would think loading the bases and setting up the force at any base is the call. Workman has very good control.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??


    Sox weren't hitting last night--Napoli's dinger was semi-miraculous and totally unexpected.  In the 10th the Sox went back to making outs.

    Workman gave up a leadoff double in the 10th, so right there the Sox had a big problem.  I think a grounder moved the runner (Davis?) to 3B with one out, a huge problem.

    I was fine with Farrell's moves.  Maybe he could have made other ones, but the real problem last night was weak hitting.  The advantage of bases loaded is the force out, but the disadvantage is it puts more pressure on the pitcher. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    If Workman doesnt hang that CB, its probably a different discussion right now. I agreed with all the moves last night as far a walking EE and pitching to Lawrie. Workman has a nasty 12-6. He just hung it is all, and with the IF playing in there was no chance to get it fter he hit it. I think EE would have taken 2nd at some point, regardless if Workman held him on. With Davis' speed and taking a secondary lead while EE is appempting to steal 2nd, theres no way they were going to risk it and throw down to 2nd. Right moves, bad result. It happens.

    The throwing errors early in the game came back to haunt them.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    Walking the bases loaded is often the chosen strategy in that situation. Not only do you set up the double play, but also the force at home. It could be that Farrell did not have enough faith that Workman or Britton could throw strikes in that situation.  It does no good to just walk one guy. He will simply take second, as we saw. You cannot risk a throw to second with a guy like Davis on third. I would have walked the bases loaded, but I can understand why Farrell was reluctant to do so. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    Bottom line was Workman made a bad pitch and hung a breaking ball.  All the strategizing doesn't get around that fact.  It happens.  It could be argued that the pitch to Bautista was too good, resulting in that soft grounder.  If Bautista hits something other than a chopper, Davis stays at second and things change as well.

     

    Still comes back to the defense earlier in the game and the inability of the offense to get hits when they need them.  Yes Napoli's hit was huge, but all 3 runs they scored were on homers.  Not a good thing to rely on.  Plus side is there were some hard it balls last night that happened to be right at people (I think I counted 5 line drive outs).  That's a welcome change from the soft gorunders and pop ups they seem to be hitting a lot of lately.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to TheExaminer's comment:

    I have a different question. Why did they walk Encarnacion to set up the dp, then just let him walk into second base without so much as even looking at him?

     




    And once you let the runner "walk into second base" after having set up the DP with the IBB, why then would you not again go for the IBB (or the "unintentional" IBB) to keep the DP in order, thereby letting your middle infielders move back?  Assuming the initial IBB is to set up the DP, you simply have to go for the IBB again to set up the same situation.  Total head scratcher.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Don't you have to walk the bases loaded with the winning run on third??

    In response to joel49's comment:

    And once you let the runner "walk into second base" after having set up the DP with the IBB, why then would you not again go for the IBB (or the "unintentional" IBB) to keep the DP in order, thereby letting your middle infielders move back?  Assuming the initial IBB is to set up the DP, you simply have to go for the IBB again to set up the same situation.  Total head scratcher.



    That's not a safe assumption.  Encarnacion has an OPS of .907, 30 HR and 89 RBI.  Easily the Jays' best all-around hitter this year.  You walk him for the same reason you walk David Ortiz.

     

     
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