Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Ellsbury was groomed to play CF, though, and that's the difference. He played LF because they had Crisp and moved to CF and played it the entire 2009 season. As I remember him, I thought he made several spectacular plays in CF, looked like a guy who could field that position as well as a Johnny Damon (certainly from a speed, quickness factor, Damon clearly read balls and could go back on a ball with better judgment than Ells). I was very pleased with Ellsbury in CF, then there were all these stories about the UZR and how Ellsbury was deemed "questionable" by some of the rating systems. Then Cameron, a guy who was 38, not an upcoming Fryman, not an upcoming Reggie Smith, not a guy who HAS EVER MOVED ANOTHER GUY out of a position, especially with a history of bouncing from team to team. He's the guy who takes a player 12 years his junior and places him in LF, and then the manager tells us in a quote that he told Ellsbury not to worry, it was going to be a temporary 1-year thing, and he would be back in CF......ROY, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT AS SOMEONE I THINK KNOWS HIS BASEBALL, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY DEAD WRONG ON COMPARING GUYS LIKE ROSE, YAZ, HALL OF FAME PLAYERS TO JACOBY ELLSBURY AND THE REASONS THESE GUYS MOVED POSITIONS...ARod had to move to 3b for Jeter, HE DIDN'T HAVE TO MOVE FOR ALEX GONZALEZ....

    As for Youkilis, he is far, far more versatile than Ellsbury. Jacoby is a CF who played LF because that's where the rookies got to play (Reddick, Kalish, etc), not because it was his natural position. Jacoby is a CF, he played a full CF in a 2009 playoff year, and he lost his spot, and you think that is perfectly ok....you know, maybe you and softy can have a cup of tea and tell me about the 2011 Ellsbury in CF, and then tell me again what year that Ellsbury has to change positions for the next over-the-hill 38-year-old fossil (signed to a 2-year contract).

    I thinke expitch was right. There was a master plan, and it backfired on Theo, and then it was all back to normal the next year. It was like the Bridge Year never happened, how lucky for Theo. He signs a LF for 142 Million on a team full of lefthanded hitters, and put Ellsbury back in CF. Makes so much sense, huh?

    Jesus, roy, you are full of it. (editor's note--I was out of line, but I stand by this, and I still respect 95 percent of your posts).
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    I'm sorry, but I'm sick of the justification of bad moves. Signing CC for 142 million has all but signed Jacoby's death warrant in Boston. Too bad, he can look back at the year in his career where it was necessary for him to leave his prime position for a guy 12 years older. Really? Yup.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]Fascinating article by Jackie McMullen.  Thanks. Sure looks like the Sox medical staff blew it and made little effort to diagnose him properly or even give him sound, conservative medical advice.  Little wonder he fled west to Arizona.  Youk can say whatever he wants now, but last year he was calling Ellsbury out and at the same time giving him bad advice.  Nothing wrong with Youk wondering why Ellsbury was out west, the mistake was going public and very vocal with it.   What's missing in the article is any insight into whether Ellsbury feels comfortable with these guys after last year.   
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    Hmmm sounds a lot like what happened with buchholz. The red sox medical staff is questionable at best. The fact that the boston red sox organization does not find their constant mistakes unacceptable makes me wonder for sure. We have lost 2 key players over the past 2 years for longer than necessary due to them being misdiagnosed. Thats just not acceptable.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    And for the record, when Yaz moved to 1b it was for future Hall of Famer Jim Rice, not for Jim Rice at 38. When Yaz went back to left, it was because he played so well in 75 playoffs after Rice got hurt. Sox said "we'll put Jim Ed at DH"....If Ellsbury moves to LF for Johnny Damon at age 28, now I'm a little understanding of his move. He was moved for a 38-year-old guy. I'm sorry, and I know it's terrible how Cameron's Sox career was hurt by a terrible injury that he played through, but by the time he was moved to a platoon the next season, it was he who could not handle the platoon, and he hit like Mendoza. So one more time, Ellsbury...not a versatile player...Ellsbury not a future CF who already was a CF who had to move for a 38-year-old has been. I don't know who Rose moved for, but I do know if you move positions, there better be a very good reason....
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    It just makes me madder to see people continuing to justify Cameron's signing. It was horrible when it was done, It was ill-advised, and it turned out pretty much how I expected...a failure.  Except it was a failure of monumental proportions, that's how bad Cameron's stay was in Boston.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]Ellsbury was groomed to play CF, though, and that's the difference. He played LF because they had Crisp and moved to CF and played it the entire 2009 season. As I remember him, I thought he made several spectacular plays in CF, looked like a guy who could field that position as well as a Johnny Damon (certainly from a speed, quickness factor, Damon clearly read balls and could go back on a ball with better judgment than Ells). I was very pleased with Ellsbury in CF, then there were all these stories about the UZR and how Ellsbury was deemed "questionable" by some of the rating systems. Then Cameron, a guy who was 38, not an upcoming Fryman, not an upcoming Reggie Smith, not a guy who HAS EVER MOVED ANOTHER GUY out of a position, especially with a history of bouncing from team to team. He's the guy who takes a player 12 years his junior and places him in LF, and then the manager tells us in a quote that he told Ellsbury not to worry, it was going to be a temporary 1-year thing, and he would be back in CF......ROY, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT AS SOMEONE I THINK KNOWS HIS BASEBALL, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY DEAD WRONG ON COMPARING GUYS LIKE ROSE, YAZ, HALL OF FAME PLAYERS TO JACOBY ELLSBURY AND THE REASONS THESE GUYS MOVED POSITIONS...ARod had to move to 3b for Jeter, HE DIDN'T HAVE TO MOVE FOR ALEX GONZALEZ.... As for Youkilis, he is far, far more versatile than Ellsbury. Jacoby is a CF who played LF because that's where the rookies got to play (Reddick, Kalish, etc), not because it was his natural position. Jacoby is a CF, he played a full CF in a 2009 playoff year, and he lost his spot, and you think that is perfectly ok....you know, maybe you and softy can have a cup of tea and tell me about the 2011 Ellsbury in CF, and then tell me again what year that Ellsbury has to change positions for the next over-the-hill 38-year-old fossil (signed to a 2-year contract). I thinke expitch was right. There was a master plan, and it backfired on Theo, and then it was all back to normal the next year. It was like the Bridge Year never happened, how lucky for Theo. He signs a LF for 142 Million on a team full of lefthanded hitters, and put Ellsbury back in CF. Makes so much sense, huh? Jesus, roy, you are full of it. (editor's note--I was out of line, but I stand by this, and I still respect 95 percent of your posts).
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]
    Since you agree with me, what can I say -- save that you nailed it. Ho.
    Roy calls my position "unreasonable," then uses a series of false analogies to buttress his position. 
    Cameron was signed for two years, and it's reasonable to assume to play center both years, Roy's footwork notwithstanding.  If he could still do it -- and better than Ellsbury -- in 2010, why not in 2011?
    As far as I know, Ellsbury did not whine about the switch in positions. He might have expressed disappointment in-house. Who wouldn't? But he didn't go public. He also did his best "to help the team" until he was injured.
    You can also bet that as he was coming through the system, he was told more than once that centerfield on the Boston Red Sox for years to come should be his goal. And encouraged to think he could achieve. it. 
    The best laid plans of mice and Theo....  Perhaps.   

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Well we will never know about Cam Danny. A sports hernia is not more likely to attack an older player. Cameron had a solid year with the Brewers. How he would have panned out if he had been healthy we will never know. One thing is for certain at his age missing most of a baseball season and then being a platoon player turned the lights out on his career.

    I happen to think the RS probably were short sighted in some ways BUT there was alot to the Cameron argument, including the fact that switching OF positions had worked out so badly in NY for him. Ellsbury already knew LF in Fenway real well etc.

    I personally thought the RS were buying time with Cameron all along and that he'd have had to had a brilliant year for the RS not to in on an OFer in offseason after 10.

    When Bay's money got stupid, Theo decided to put a band-aid on the OF and sign another pitcher. Wait for some other money to clear off the books and further reload this past winter. Now if somebody told him that Werth was going to take $125M he might have gone harder after Holliday. But say what you want they had Bay pretty well pegged. They don't blow it with their own FAs too often, it is the guys who have played for other teams that have been tricky for them.

    You know for all the complaints about this FO unless they have catastrophic injury problems like they did in 06 and 10 they seem to always be in the hunt and always make it to October.

    At any rate the past with Ellsbury is the past. As he says turn the page. And even if everything had been lovefest in 10 Ellsbury hired Scott Boras because the young man rightfully wants to maximize his earnings.



     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    ex, roy usually has some spot-on comments, but I was just thrown for a loop by his Yaz, Rose examples. I don't recall ever seeing a young OF give up his position for an extremely old OF. It's usually the other way around. Old man goes to 1b from the outfield for the young and up and coming guy. Not the reverse. No one expected Ellsbury to be as good as he is this year, but I think I and you could have reasonably expected he could be as good as he was in 2009, which was still pretty good for a young CF. It was insanity to move Ellsbury and it probably was linked to a plan to remove Ellsbury as a long-term Sox. They may have simply given up on him too early in his career. It's possible based on the CC and Cameron signings.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]Well we will never know about Cam Danny. A sports hernia is not more likely to attack an older player. Cameron had a solid year with the Brewers. How he would have panned out if he had been healthy we will never know. One thing is for certain at his age missing most of a baseball season and then being a platoon player turned the lights out on his career. I happen to think the RS probably were short sighted in some ways BUT there was alot to the Cameron argument, including the fact that switching OF positions had worked out so badly in NY for him. Ellsbury already knew LF in Fenway real well etc. I personally thought the RS were buying time with Cameron all along and that he'd have had to had a brilliant year for the RS not to in on an OFer in offseason after 10. When Bay's money got stupid, Theo decided to put a band-aid on the OF and sign another pitcher. Wait for some other money to clear off the books and further reload this past winter. Now if somebody told him that Werth was going to take $125M he might have gone harder after Holliday. But say what you want they had Bay pretty well pegged. They don't blow it with their own FAs too often, it is the guys who have played for other teams that have been tricky for them. You know for all the complaints about this FO unless they have catastrophic injury problems like they did in 06 and 10 they seem to always be in the hunt and always make it to October. At any rate the past with Ellsbury is the past. As he says turn the page. And even if everything had been lovefest in 10 Ellsbury hired Scott Boras because the young man rightfully wants to maximize his earnings.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    five, I agree with you about the past, but I was still crying bloody murder before Mike Cameron ever took the field last year. I think the one thing I would have changed was simply make Cameron be the one to play LF. That initially would have been fine by me with Bay not signed and no other OF possibly available. It's clear why I and many Ellsbury fans were upset with what happened. It was Jacoby has to move from CF...It just still is mind-boggling that they went that route. It was a clear message that they did not have faith in JE to play CF. It's the only way you can rationalize the move to push JE to LF. Temporary or not.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    This thread brought up last year, and that's why I'm posting on this thread about the comments made. It is about last year, not now.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]ex, roy usually has some spot-on comments, but I was just thrown for a loop by his Yaz, Rose examples. I don't recall ever seeing a young OF give up his position for an extremely old OF. It's usually the other way around. Old man goes to 1b from the outfield for the young and up and coming guy. Not the reverse. No one expected Ellsbury to be as good as he is this year, but I think I and you could have reasonably expected he could be as good as he was in 2009, which was still pretty good for a young CF. It was insanity to move Ellsbury and it probably was linked to a plan to remove Ellsbury as a long-term Sox. They may have simply given up on him too early in his career. It's possible based on the CC and Cameron signings.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]I would not read anymore into the Cameron signing than Bay's demands exceeded their evaluations of him and Holliday's money seemed wildly high (it served to set-up the Crawford and Werth deals sadly for the industry and us).

    Now Crawford is a different story. I do think the RS are well aware who Jacoby's agent is, how difficult it is to retain your own players in FA with him and frankly there isn't a lot of love between Camp Boras and the RS. So they may well have determined that Carl was where they'd stick their long term money, they'd work with Ells through the arbitration years and bring up the next LH with gap power and wheels. Lot's of clubs do that, just because the RS are big market doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate way to operate.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    It's disappointing in that I'm sure Theo would never had signed CC if he had more faith in JE. Yet, CC is or has been a LF, not a CF, so to me, it was still a dumb signing of CC because JE (to me) has more value as a CF. It's not that simple a position to play. 142 million invested, so he gets it done or he joins the Drew club.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Something tells me the Sox better win this year because it's quite possible they will lose Papelbon, Ellsbury and Ortiz. And that's a lot of talent to lose on the free agent market.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PawsoxPhil. Show PawsoxPhil's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Do the forum people with a photographic memory recall who wanted the Sox to make a huge FA signing in every November no matter what? Wasn't there a group who considered no action to be a complete failure. Didn't Crawford have dinner with Cashman that same night of the signing? Didn't the Angels make an equal offer but for one less year? Was the signing of CC a long term decision to fortify the OF once Drew left and also to keep him from the Yankees since they were unsure of the future of Granderson and Gardner at that moment? Did Theo know at that moment how good Reddick and Kalish would develop? How many good FAs were on the market at the time and how could he restore the NESN ratings. Weren't 90% of RSN and this forum ecstatic with signing CC?  As I said in my first sentence, who in the forum endorsed the signing and where are they now?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    If moving Ellsbury our of center and then signing Crawford with a loan from the World Bank were not indications of what Theo saw in the future, the only thing more definite would have been a sign on the centerfield wall reading, "Not Indian Territory."  
    I don't agree with katz that Cameron needed a great year in 2010 to secure the position for 2011. A decent year would probably have sufficed -- if Dan and I are correct in our surmise that Theo had begun to think in other terms for center -- perhaps terms spelled Kalish, or someone else. Yes, Cameron was keeping the position warm but not for Ellsbury in all likelihood.  What's more, I doubt that Cameron would have been signed at all if Theo had confidence in Ellsbury. Whatever the motive, it's hard to resist the conclusion that Ellsbury was no longer the Golden Boy. Maybe Theo was one of the people who had it in for the young man because of how things played out in 2010, and thus brought in Crawford. 
    Dan and I could, of course, be wrong; but, as they say in stats when numbers do not go beyond a strong correlation ( about as good as it gets this side of scientific causation ), "nonetheless, the arrow points strongly in one direction." 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    ex, I echo everything you said in the last post. It just never added up to being a positive for Ellsbury--moving to LF. And regardless of how things turn out, it could very well be the chip on Jacoby's shoulder that is driving him to have a great season. It was a demotion and frankly probably embarrassing to him to move for a guy 12 years his senior who was in the twilight of his career. Not a team player? Try the organization showing it didn't have faith. That's what that move meant more than anything else...it was a message sent.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    It would have been nice if we signed Holliday instead of Lackey and Lee instead of Crawford:-)

    Hindsight is 20-20...

    There is a fool who felt we could have traded for Bautista (tried and shot down)... like the Jays were sending him within the division, remember when our Halladay offer blew away the competition? Then the Jays were able to keep Jose for the wimpy sum of 5/65 b/c he was a one year wonder to that point in his career.

    ah what a fool... hating on AGon in the process
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    What could have been in '10 tho...

    CF - Ellsbury (no rib injury, has a season in between '09 and '11 stats)
    2B - Pedroia
    1B - Youk
    C - VMart
    LF - Holliday
    DH - Ortiz
    3B - Beltre
    RF - Drew
    SS - Scutaro

    Team would have had some defensive issues at catcher and had to scramble for a starter when Beckett got hurt (Lackey was a solid #3 last year) but otherwise, a monster lineup.

    If we could have used the AGon package on Lee, avoided any injuries (esp Pedey/Youk) and won a World Series (with Paps and Beckett likely needing to have turned things around in the postseason to do so) maybe Lee loves it here so much he stays for the 'discount' he gave the Phils?

    ah the 20-20 hindsight game is fun.

    Then AGon could hit free agency after 2011 and we could just sign him w/ Drew's 14m off the books and either trade Youk (12m '12) or unfortunately say goodbye to Papi (should get 10m). Beltre/Youk and AGon would all be kept pretty injury free sharing DH and the payroll would stay the same.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from PawsoxPhil. Show PawsoxPhil's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    It is astonishing how many here can't really comprehend the hindsight principle. It never fails to register in their minds that the GM of a team doesn't have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight at the moment that he makes a signing or a trade. In their minds Theo or Cashman should have a crystal ball that tells them that Clement or Pavano would get injured or that Igawa or Renteria would be not up to the task. Most simple fans in the ballparks eating their hotdogs and popcorn get it and chalk it up to bad luck but those in forums always need to find a convenient scapegoat to blame.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Say we keep Papi and trade Youk for some nice pieces that we add Ranaudo, Reddick or Kalish and some other prospect to and get Kemp.

    2012 lineup:

    CF - Ells
    2B - Pedroia
    1B - AGon
    LF - Holliday
    DH - Papi
    RF - Kemp
    3B - Beltre
    C - Salty
    SS - Scutaro/Lowrie

    Pitchers

    Lester
    Beckett
    Lee
    Buchholz
    Dice-K/Wake

    Closer - Bard
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]It is astonishing how many here can't really comprehend the hindsight principle. It never fails to register in their minds that the GM of a team doesn't have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight at the moment that he makes a signing or a trade. In their minds Theo or Cashman should have a crystal ball that tells them that Clement or Pavano would get injured or that Igawa or Renteria would be not up to the task. Most simple fans in the ballparks eating their hotdogs and popcorn get it and chalk it up to bad luck but those in forums always need to find a convenient scapegoat to blame.
    Posted by PawsoxPhil[/QUOTE]

    ahaha so true

    did you see how my fun revisionist hindsight just won us 3 World Series in a row and 'assumed' multiple trades could happen (or wouldn't elsewhere around the league) and players would sign here over other teams
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    As I said in my first sentence, who in the forum endorsed the signing and where are they now?

    The entire Board, except me and 5K, were either ecstatic about Crawford acquisition or vacillate about the merits of it.

    Anyone who believes in WAR would have signed Crawford for 142M. We have an idiot fantasy minded delinquent on here who does.

    Theo put his money on Crawford. If he has any sense at all, he'll sell high on Elllsbury's 2 years of arbitration and apply the inflated value towards a trade for a younger start Rh OF'er.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from PawsoxPhil. Show PawsoxPhil's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year : ahaha so true did you see how my fun revisionist hindsight just won us 3 World Series in a row and 'assumed' multiple trades could happen (or wouldn't elsewhere around the league) and players would sign here over other teams
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    No, can you repost that?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    If the surmise that Dan and I are resting upon is correct, then sooner than later the Sox should move Ellsbury if his value remains high. There is also an argument for getting what you can out of him for the next two years, or one and a half years, and then trading him before he becomes a FA. But there is no telling what might happen during that time span. If he continues to have the kind of year he's had so far but Theo still doesn't think he's the answer in center or isn't worth what Boras will demand down the road, the time to deal will probably be in the cold, cold, cold of winter coming.  
    Under new ownership with $$$$, the Dodgers could be a possibility, but not in exchange for either Kemp or Ethier. If they can afford to pay Ellsbury, they can afford to keep the other two and have an OF of Kemp, Ellsbury, and Ethier, from left to right.  LA has nothing else on it ML roster except Kershaw, and he's not going anywhere. What LA has in the minors is for Theo to know if he thinks to dicker with LA. But it would take more than Ellsbury to pull this club out of the doldrums any time soon. 
    Otherwise, it would have to be a club that needs a centerfielder, or thinks one like Ellsbury will make a big difference, has money to spend on the position, and has players that would interest Boston.  Frankly, I have no idea who that might be. The Mets? The Giants? The White Sox? 
    But the dog days of summer and chilly days of fall precede the cold, cold, cold of winter. Events, as usual, will have the final say.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]Ellsbury was groomed to play CF, though, and that's the difference. He played LF because they had Crisp and moved to CF and played it the entire 2009 season. As I remember him, I thought he made several spectacular plays in CF, looked like a guy who could field that position as well as a Johnny Damon (certainly from a speed, quickness factor, Damon clearly read balls and could go back on a ball with better judgment than Ells). I was very pleased with Ellsbury in CF, then there were all these stories about the UZR and how Ellsbury was deemed "questionable" by some of the rating systems. Then Cameron, a guy who was 38, not an upcoming Fryman, not an upcoming Reggie Smith, not a guy who HAS EVER MOVED ANOTHER GUY out of a position, especially with a history of bouncing from team to team. He's the guy who takes a player 12 years his junior and places him in LF, and then the manager tells us in a quote that he told Ellsbury not to worry, it was going to be a temporary 1-year thing, and he would be back in CF......ROY, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT AS SOMEONE I THINK KNOWS HIS BASEBALL, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY DEAD WRONG ON COMPARING GUYS LIKE ROSE, YAZ, HALL OF FAME PLAYERS TO JACOBY ELLSBURY AND THE REASONS THESE GUYS MOVED POSITIONS...ARod had to move to 3b for Jeter, HE DIDN'T HAVE TO MOVE FOR ALEX GONZALEZ.... As for Youkilis, he is far, far more versatile than Ellsbury. Jacoby is a CF who played LF because that's where the rookies got to play (Reddick, Kalish, etc), not because it was his natural position. Jacoby is a CF, he played a full CF in a 2009 playoff year, and he lost his spot, and you think that is perfectly ok....you know, maybe you and softy can have a cup of tea and tell me about the 2011 Ellsbury in CF, and then tell me again what year that Ellsbury has to change positions for the next over-the-hill 38-year-old fossil (signed to a 2-year contract). I thinke expitch was right. There was a master plan, and it backfired on Theo, and then it was all back to normal the next year. It was like the Bridge Year never happened, how lucky for Theo. He signs a LF for 142 Million on a team full of lefthanded hitters, and put Ellsbury back in CF. Makes so much sense, huh? Jesus, roy, you are full of it. (editor's note--I was out of line, but I stand by this, and I still respect 95 percent of your posts).
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Ellsbury was groomed ... what the heck does that mean.

    Yaz was groomed to be Williams replacement yet after three years, he moved for one season to CF. Didn't seem to hurt him. And LF at Fenway is the more glamour position even back then than CF.

    All that groomed means is that the team sees you as the future major league team at that position. So 90 percent (or whatever, let's say a huge majority) of players are groomed for a certain position. It doesn't mean that they can't or won't be moved.

    Players are moved all the time out of their original/ best position, sometimes short term, sometimes long term. I can't believe you making it out to be some sort of huge anomaly.

    Yes, he payed LF because of Crisp and played it well. If Ellsbury was the young guy being groomed for CF, why didn't they move Crisp. Because Crisp was either A) the better CF or B) couldn't play LF. It might have been C) all of the above. But that's the point, Ellsbury could play LF.

    (As an aside, Fryman was hardly an up-and-comer when he went to the Tribe. Like Cameron, he was an estabished player at his position. The difference was that he was only 29 but an eight-year veteran. But the point is, he was better than Thome and Thome, who had never even played 1B, agreed to make the move and worked hard in the offseason to prepare to play 1B).

    Now this I don't get.

    You said I'm dead wrong on comparing guys like Rose, Yaz, Hall of Fame players to Jacoby Ellsbury and the reasons these guys moved positions ... but you don't explain why.

    Then you say A-Rod had to move to 3B for Jeter. He didn't have to move for Alex Gonzalez.

    But that rationale, Rose and Yaz shouldn't have had to move because in those cases, they were moved for inferior players. The reasons they moved because the player brought in could only play that position and Rose and Yaz were versatile enough to move to different positions. And unlike Rose and Yaz, they were Gold Glovers being moved out of their positions for an inferiour player. Ellsbury was being moved out for a Gold Glover, a guy with a reputation around baseball as being one of the top two or three defensive CF'ers in the game, even at his age.

    Your insistence that Youk is more versatile than Ellsbury is mystifying. Ellsbury can play all three OF positions and play them well. He just doesn't have a strong arm for RF. In a pinch, Ellsbury probably could play 1B and play 1B better than Youk can play LF. As for the other IF positions, it's moot because Ellsbury throws RF. Youk is a corner IF -- 3B and 1B. He was a butcher in LF, but played their in an emergency. You wouldn't put him anywhere near CF or RF. But let's put it this way -- Ellsbury is a versatile OF and Youk is a versatile IF. 

    There are two points you're arguing here.

    The first point where you're on solid ground is moving Ellsbury for a 38-year-old player. That's fine if you don't like it. And guess what. I would have moved Cameron to LF and kept Ellsbury in CF. Ellsbury was younger and would likely wear down less. Cameron, even though he was in great shape, probably would have benefitted from playing in the smaller LF. I wasn't, however, going to get bent out of shape because the Sox decided to put Cameron in CF. He was a Gold Glover there. I didn't mind the Cameron signing short term, but if you didn't like, fine. People can have differing opinions on the matter. 

    The second point is you seem to be saying it's unreasonable in general to move a young player who is being "groomed" for a certain position to another position. And that's where you're on very shaky ground. There are plenty of other examples where the young player was moved from his best position for a variety of reasons. It's one thing to say Ellsbury shouldn't have been moved for a 38-year-old player you didn't want in the first place. It's quite another thing to say in general that the young up-and-coming CF shouldn't be moved for a year (or two) to another position for the betterment of the team. Why is Ellsbury so special when many players (Hall of Famers included) did the same thing.

    And finally Danny, I'm disappointed. Here we are having a back-and-forth offering our different opinions on a subject and then you have to go all pi ss y at the end with that snide remark that included softy and imply that I've been a Ellsbury basher like he has. I've been as big a support of Ellsbury as anyone on his board. And I'm actually complimenting him by saying he should have easily moved to LF for a year or two then move back w/o it affecting him. If he didn't like it, the only reason would be ego and yeah, I'll criticize him for that.

    (I'll ignore the full of it remark).
     

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