Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    Fascinating article by Jackie McMullen.  Thanks. Sure looks like the Sox medical staff blew it and made little effort to diagnose him properly or even give him sound, conservative medical advice.  Little wonder he fled west to Arizona.  Youk can say whatever he wants now, but last year he was calling Ellsbury out and at the same time giving him bad advice.  Nothing wrong with Youk wondering why Ellsbury was out west, the mistake was going public and very vocal with it.   What's missing in the article is any insight into whether Ellsbury feels comfortable with these guys after last year.   
    Posted by maxbialystock


    Hmmm sounds a lot like what happened with buchholz. The red sox medical staff is questionable at best. The fact that the boston red sox organization does not find their constant mistakes unacceptable makes me wonder for sure. We have lost 2 key players over the past 2 years for longer than necessary due to them being misdiagnosed. Thats just not acceptable.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    And for the record, when Yaz moved to 1b it was for future Hall of Famer Jim Rice, not for Jim Rice at 38. When Yaz went back to left, it was because he played so well in 75 playoffs after Rice got hurt. Sox said "we'll put Jim Ed at DH"....If Ellsbury moves to LF for Johnny Damon at age 28, now I'm a little understanding of his move. He was moved for a 38-year-old guy. I'm sorry, and I know it's terrible how Cameron's Sox career was hurt by a terrible injury that he played through, but by the time he was moved to a platoon the next season, it was he who could not handle the platoon, and he hit like Mendoza. So one more time, Ellsbury...not a versatile player...Ellsbury not a future CF who already was a CF who had to move for a 38-year-old has been. I don't know who Rose moved for, but I do know if you move positions, there better be a very good reason....
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    It just makes me madder to see people continuing to justify Cameron's signing. It was horrible when it was done, It was ill-advised, and it turned out pretty much how I expected...a failure.  Except it was a failure of monumental proportions, that's how bad Cameron's stay was in Boston.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    Ellsbury was groomed to play CF, though, and that's the difference. He played LF because they had Crisp and moved to CF and played it the entire 2009 season. As I remember him, I thought he made several spectacular plays in CF, looked like a guy who could field that position as well as a Johnny Damon (certainly from a speed, quickness factor, Damon clearly read balls and could go back on a ball with better judgment than Ells). I was very pleased with Ellsbury in CF, then there were all these stories about the UZR and how Ellsbury was deemed "questionable" by some of the rating systems. Then Cameron, a guy who was 38, not an upcoming Fryman, not an upcoming Reggie Smith, not a guy who HAS EVER MOVED ANOTHER GUY out of a position, especially with a history of bouncing from team to team. He's the guy who takes a player 12 years his junior and places him in LF, and then the manager tells us in a quote that he told Ellsbury not to worry, it was going to be a temporary 1-year thing, and he would be back in CF......ROY, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT AS SOMEONE I THINK KNOWS HIS BASEBALL, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY DEAD WRONG ON COMPARING GUYS LIKE ROSE, YAZ, HALL OF FAME PLAYERS TO JACOBY ELLSBURY AND THE REASONS THESE GUYS MOVED POSITIONS...ARod had to move to 3b for Jeter, HE DIDN'T HAVE TO MOVE FOR ALEX GONZALEZ.... As for Youkilis, he is far, far more versatile than Ellsbury. Jacoby is a CF who played LF because that's where the rookies got to play (Reddick, Kalish, etc), not because it was his natural position. Jacoby is a CF, he played a full CF in a 2009 playoff year, and he lost his spot, and you think that is perfectly ok....you know, maybe you and softy can have a cup of tea and tell me about the 2011 Ellsbury in CF, and then tell me again what year that Ellsbury has to change positions for the next over-the-hill 38-year-old fossil (signed to a 2-year contract). I thinke expitch was right. There was a master plan, and it backfired on Theo, and then it was all back to normal the next year. It was like the Bridge Year never happened, how lucky for Theo. He signs a LF for 142 Million on a team full of lefthanded hitters, and put Ellsbury back in CF. Makes so much sense, huh? Jesus, roy, you are full of it. (editor's note--I was out of line, but I stand by this, and I still respect 95 percent of your posts).
    Posted by dannycater
    Since you agree with me, what can I say -- save that you nailed it. Ho.
    Roy calls my position "unreasonable," then uses a series of false analogies to buttress his position. 
    Cameron was signed for two years, and it's reasonable to assume to play center both years, Roy's footwork notwithstanding.  If he could still do it -- and better than Ellsbury -- in 2010, why not in 2011?
    As far as I know, Ellsbury did not whine about the switch in positions. He might have expressed disappointment in-house. Who wouldn't? But he didn't go public. He also did his best "to help the team" until he was injured.
    You can also bet that as he was coming through the system, he was told more than once that centerfield on the Boston Red Sox for years to come should be his goal. And encouraged to think he could achieve. it. 
    The best laid plans of mice and Theo....  Perhaps.   

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Well we will never know about Cam Danny. A sports hernia is not more likely to attack an older player. Cameron had a solid year with the Brewers. How he would have panned out if he had been healthy we will never know. One thing is for certain at his age missing most of a baseball season and then being a platoon player turned the lights out on his career.

    I happen to think the RS probably were short sighted in some ways BUT there was alot to the Cameron argument, including the fact that switching OF positions had worked out so badly in NY for him. Ellsbury already knew LF in Fenway real well etc.

    I personally thought the RS were buying time with Cameron all along and that he'd have had to had a brilliant year for the RS not to in on an OFer in offseason after 10.

    When Bay's money got stupid, Theo decided to put a band-aid on the OF and sign another pitcher. Wait for some other money to clear off the books and further reload this past winter. Now if somebody told him that Werth was going to take $125M he might have gone harder after Holliday. But say what you want they had Bay pretty well pegged. They don't blow it with their own FAs too often, it is the guys who have played for other teams that have been tricky for them.

    You know for all the complaints about this FO unless they have catastrophic injury problems like they did in 06 and 10 they seem to always be in the hunt and always make it to October.

    At any rate the past with Ellsbury is the past. As he says turn the page. And even if everything had been lovefest in 10 Ellsbury hired Scott Boras because the young man rightfully wants to maximize his earnings.



     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    ex, roy usually has some spot-on comments, but I was just thrown for a loop by his Yaz, Rose examples. I don't recall ever seeing a young OF give up his position for an extremely old OF. It's usually the other way around. Old man goes to 1b from the outfield for the young and up and coming guy. Not the reverse. No one expected Ellsbury to be as good as he is this year, but I think I and you could have reasonably expected he could be as good as he was in 2009, which was still pretty good for a young CF. It was insanity to move Ellsbury and it probably was linked to a plan to remove Ellsbury as a long-term Sox. They may have simply given up on him too early in his career. It's possible based on the CC and Cameron signings.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    Well we will never know about Cam Danny. A sports hernia is not more likely to attack an older player. Cameron had a solid year with the Brewers. How he would have panned out if he had been healthy we will never know. One thing is for certain at his age missing most of a baseball season and then being a platoon player turned the lights out on his career. I happen to think the RS probably were short sighted in some ways BUT there was alot to the Cameron argument, including the fact that switching OF positions had worked out so badly in NY for him. Ellsbury already knew LF in Fenway real well etc. I personally thought the RS were buying time with Cameron all along and that he'd have had to had a brilliant year for the RS not to in on an OFer in offseason after 10. When Bay's money got stupid, Theo decided to put a band-aid on the OF and sign another pitcher. Wait for some other money to clear off the books and further reload this past winter. Now if somebody told him that Werth was going to take $125M he might have gone harder after Holliday. But say what you want they had Bay pretty well pegged. They don't blow it with their own FAs too often, it is the guys who have played for other teams that have been tricky for them. You know for all the complaints about this FO unless they have catastrophic injury problems like they did in 06 and 10 they seem to always be in the hunt and always make it to October. At any rate the past with Ellsbury is the past. As he says turn the page. And even if everything had been lovefest in 10 Ellsbury hired Scott Boras because the young man rightfully wants to maximize his earnings.
    Posted by fivekatz


    five, I agree with you about the past, but I was still crying bloody murder before Mike Cameron ever took the field last year. I think the one thing I would have changed was simply make Cameron be the one to play LF. That initially would have been fine by me with Bay not signed and no other OF possibly available. It's clear why I and many Ellsbury fans were upset with what happened. It was Jacoby has to move from CF...It just still is mind-boggling that they went that route. It was a clear message that they did not have faith in JE to play CF. It's the only way you can rationalize the move to push JE to LF. Temporary or not.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    This thread brought up last year, and that's why I'm posting on this thread about the comments made. It is about last year, not now.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    ex, roy usually has some spot-on comments, but I was just thrown for a loop by his Yaz, Rose examples. I don't recall ever seeing a young OF give up his position for an extremely old OF. It's usually the other way around. Old man goes to 1b from the outfield for the young and up and coming guy. Not the reverse. No one expected Ellsbury to be as good as he is this year, but I think I and you could have reasonably expected he could be as good as he was in 2009, which was still pretty good for a young CF. It was insanity to move Ellsbury and it probably was linked to a plan to remove Ellsbury as a long-term Sox. They may have simply given up on him too early in his career. It's possible based on the CC and Cameron signings.
    Posted by dannycater
    I would not read anymore into the Cameron signing than Bay's demands exceeded their evaluations of him and Holliday's money seemed wildly high (it served to set-up the Crawford and Werth deals sadly for the industry and us).

    Now Crawford is a different story. I do think the RS are well aware who Jacoby's agent is, how difficult it is to retain your own players in FA with him and frankly there isn't a lot of love between Camp Boras and the RS. So they may well have determined that Carl was where they'd stick their long term money, they'd work with Ells through the arbitration years and bring up the next LH with gap power and wheels. Lot's of clubs do that, just because the RS are big market doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate way to operate.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    It's disappointing in that I'm sure Theo would never had signed CC if he had more faith in JE. Yet, CC is or has been a LF, not a CF, so to me, it was still a dumb signing of CC because JE (to me) has more value as a CF. It's not that simple a position to play. 142 million invested, so he gets it done or he joins the Drew club.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Something tells me the Sox better win this year because it's quite possible they will lose Papelbon, Ellsbury and Ortiz. And that's a lot of talent to lose on the free agent market.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PawsoxPhil. Show PawsoxPhil's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Do the forum people with a photographic memory recall who wanted the Sox to make a huge FA signing in every November no matter what? Wasn't there a group who considered no action to be a complete failure. Didn't Crawford have dinner with Cashman that same night of the signing? Didn't the Angels make an equal offer but for one less year? Was the signing of CC a long term decision to fortify the OF once Drew left and also to keep him from the Yankees since they were unsure of the future of Granderson and Gardner at that moment? Did Theo know at that moment how good Reddick and Kalish would develop? How many good FAs were on the market at the time and how could he restore the NESN ratings. Weren't 90% of RSN and this forum ecstatic with signing CC?  As I said in my first sentence, who in the forum endorsed the signing and where are they now?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    If moving Ellsbury our of center and then signing Crawford with a loan from the World Bank were not indications of what Theo saw in the future, the only thing more definite would have been a sign on the centerfield wall reading, "Not Indian Territory."  
    I don't agree with katz that Cameron needed a great year in 2010 to secure the position for 2011. A decent year would probably have sufficed -- if Dan and I are correct in our surmise that Theo had begun to think in other terms for center -- perhaps terms spelled Kalish, or someone else. Yes, Cameron was keeping the position warm but not for Ellsbury in all likelihood.  What's more, I doubt that Cameron would have been signed at all if Theo had confidence in Ellsbury. Whatever the motive, it's hard to resist the conclusion that Ellsbury was no longer the Golden Boy. Maybe Theo was one of the people who had it in for the young man because of how things played out in 2010, and thus brought in Crawford. 
    Dan and I could, of course, be wrong; but, as they say in stats when numbers do not go beyond a strong correlation ( about as good as it gets this side of scientific causation ), "nonetheless, the arrow points strongly in one direction." 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    ex, I echo everything you said in the last post. It just never added up to being a positive for Ellsbury--moving to LF. And regardless of how things turn out, it could very well be the chip on Jacoby's shoulder that is driving him to have a great season. It was a demotion and frankly probably embarrassing to him to move for a guy 12 years his senior who was in the twilight of his career. Not a team player? Try the organization showing it didn't have faith. That's what that move meant more than anything else...it was a message sent.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PawsoxPhil. Show PawsoxPhil's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    It is astonishing how many here can't really comprehend the hindsight principle. It never fails to register in their minds that the GM of a team doesn't have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight at the moment that he makes a signing or a trade. In their minds Theo or Cashman should have a crystal ball that tells them that Clement or Pavano would get injured or that Igawa or Renteria would be not up to the task. Most simple fans in the ballparks eating their hotdogs and popcorn get it and chalk it up to bad luck but those in forums always need to find a convenient scapegoat to blame.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    As I said in my first sentence, who in the forum endorsed the signing and where are they now?

    The entire Board, except me and 5K, were either ecstatic about Crawford acquisition or vacillate about the merits of it.

    Anyone who believes in WAR would have signed Crawford for 142M. We have an idiot fantasy minded delinquent on here who does.

    Theo put his money on Crawford. If he has any sense at all, he'll sell high on Elllsbury's 2 years of arbitration and apply the inflated value towards a trade for a younger start Rh OF'er.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from PawsoxPhil. Show PawsoxPhil's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year : ahaha so true did you see how my fun revisionist hindsight just won us 3 World Series in a row and 'assumed' multiple trades could happen (or wouldn't elsewhere around the league) and players would sign here over other teams
    Posted by rameakap


    No, can you repost that?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    If the surmise that Dan and I are resting upon is correct, then sooner than later the Sox should move Ellsbury if his value remains high. There is also an argument for getting what you can out of him for the next two years, or one and a half years, and then trading him before he becomes a FA. But there is no telling what might happen during that time span. If he continues to have the kind of year he's had so far but Theo still doesn't think he's the answer in center or isn't worth what Boras will demand down the road, the time to deal will probably be in the cold, cold, cold of winter coming.  
    Under new ownership with $$$$, the Dodgers could be a possibility, but not in exchange for either Kemp or Ethier. If they can afford to pay Ellsbury, they can afford to keep the other two and have an OF of Kemp, Ellsbury, and Ethier, from left to right.  LA has nothing else on it ML roster except Kershaw, and he's not going anywhere. What LA has in the minors is for Theo to know if he thinks to dicker with LA. But it would take more than Ellsbury to pull this club out of the doldrums any time soon. 
    Otherwise, it would have to be a club that needs a centerfielder, or thinks one like Ellsbury will make a big difference, has money to spend on the position, and has players that would interest Boston.  Frankly, I have no idea who that might be. The Mets? The Giants? The White Sox? 
    But the dog days of summer and chilly days of fall precede the cold, cold, cold of winter. Events, as usual, will have the final say.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    Ellsbury was groomed to play CF, though, and that's the difference. He played LF because they had Crisp and moved to CF and played it the entire 2009 season. As I remember him, I thought he made several spectacular plays in CF, looked like a guy who could field that position as well as a Johnny Damon (certainly from a speed, quickness factor, Damon clearly read balls and could go back on a ball with better judgment than Ells). I was very pleased with Ellsbury in CF, then there were all these stories about the UZR and how Ellsbury was deemed "questionable" by some of the rating systems. Then Cameron, a guy who was 38, not an upcoming Fryman, not an upcoming Reggie Smith, not a guy who HAS EVER MOVED ANOTHER GUY out of a position, especially with a history of bouncing from team to team. He's the guy who takes a player 12 years his junior and places him in LF, and then the manager tells us in a quote that he told Ellsbury not to worry, it was going to be a temporary 1-year thing, and he would be back in CF......ROY, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT AS SOMEONE I THINK KNOWS HIS BASEBALL, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY DEAD WRONG ON COMPARING GUYS LIKE ROSE, YAZ, HALL OF FAME PLAYERS TO JACOBY ELLSBURY AND THE REASONS THESE GUYS MOVED POSITIONS...ARod had to move to 3b for Jeter, HE DIDN'T HAVE TO MOVE FOR ALEX GONZALEZ.... As for Youkilis, he is far, far more versatile than Ellsbury. Jacoby is a CF who played LF because that's where the rookies got to play (Reddick, Kalish, etc), not because it was his natural position. Jacoby is a CF, he played a full CF in a 2009 playoff year, and he lost his spot, and you think that is perfectly ok....you know, maybe you and softy can have a cup of tea and tell me about the 2011 Ellsbury in CF, and then tell me again what year that Ellsbury has to change positions for the next over-the-hill 38-year-old fossil (signed to a 2-year contract). I thinke expitch was right. There was a master plan, and it backfired on Theo, and then it was all back to normal the next year. It was like the Bridge Year never happened, how lucky for Theo. He signs a LF for 142 Million on a team full of lefthanded hitters, and put Ellsbury back in CF. Makes so much sense, huh? Jesus, roy, you are full of it. (editor's note--I was out of line, but I stand by this, and I still respect 95 percent of your posts).
    Posted by dannycater


    Ellsbury was groomed ... what the heck does that mean.

    Yaz was groomed to be Williams replacement yet after three years, he moved for one season to CF. Didn't seem to hurt him. And LF at Fenway is the more glamour position even back then than CF.

    All that groomed means is that the team sees you as the future major league team at that position. So 90 percent (or whatever, let's say a huge majority) of players are groomed for a certain position. It doesn't mean that they can't or won't be moved.

    Players are moved all the time out of their original/ best position, sometimes short term, sometimes long term. I can't believe you making it out to be some sort of huge anomaly.

    Yes, he payed LF because of Crisp and played it well. If Ellsbury was the young guy being groomed for CF, why didn't they move Crisp. Because Crisp was either A) the better CF or B) couldn't play LF. It might have been C) all of the above. But that's the point, Ellsbury could play LF.

    (As an aside, Fryman was hardly an up-and-comer when he went to the Tribe. Like Cameron, he was an estabished player at his position. The difference was that he was only 29 but an eight-year veteran. But the point is, he was better than Thome and Thome, who had never even played 1B, agreed to make the move and worked hard in the offseason to prepare to play 1B).

    Now this I don't get.

    You said I'm dead wrong on comparing guys like Rose, Yaz, Hall of Fame players to Jacoby Ellsbury and the reasons these guys moved positions ... but you don't explain why.

    Then you say A-Rod had to move to 3B for Jeter. He didn't have to move for Alex Gonzalez.

    But that rationale, Rose and Yaz shouldn't have had to move because in those cases, they were moved for inferior players. The reasons they moved because the player brought in could only play that position and Rose and Yaz were versatile enough to move to different positions. And unlike Rose and Yaz, they were Gold Glovers being moved out of their positions for an inferiour player. Ellsbury was being moved out for a Gold Glover, a guy with a reputation around baseball as being one of the top two or three defensive CF'ers in the game, even at his age.

    Your insistence that Youk is more versatile than Ellsbury is mystifying. Ellsbury can play all three OF positions and play them well. He just doesn't have a strong arm for RF. In a pinch, Ellsbury probably could play 1B and play 1B better than Youk can play LF. As for the other IF positions, it's moot because Ellsbury throws RF. Youk is a corner IF -- 3B and 1B. He was a butcher in LF, but played their in an emergency. You wouldn't put him anywhere near CF or RF. But let's put it this way -- Ellsbury is a versatile OF and Youk is a versatile IF. 

    There are two points you're arguing here.

    The first point where you're on solid ground is moving Ellsbury for a 38-year-old player. That's fine if you don't like it. And guess what. I would have moved Cameron to LF and kept Ellsbury in CF. Ellsbury was younger and would likely wear down less. Cameron, even though he was in great shape, probably would have benefitted from playing in the smaller LF. I wasn't, however, going to get bent out of shape because the Sox decided to put Cameron in CF. He was a Gold Glover there. I didn't mind the Cameron signing short term, but if you didn't like, fine. People can have differing opinions on the matter. 

    The second point is you seem to be saying it's unreasonable in general to move a young player who is being "groomed" for a certain position to another position. And that's where you're on very shaky ground. There are plenty of other examples where the young player was moved from his best position for a variety of reasons. It's one thing to say Ellsbury shouldn't have been moved for a 38-year-old player you didn't want in the first place. It's quite another thing to say in general that the young up-and-coming CF shouldn't be moved for a year (or two) to another position for the betterment of the team. Why is Ellsbury so special when many players (Hall of Famers included) did the same thing.

    And finally Danny, I'm disappointed. Here we are having a back-and-forth offering our different opinions on a subject and then you have to go all pi ss y at the end with that snide remark that included softy and imply that I've been a Ellsbury basher like he has. I've been as big a support of Ellsbury as anyone on his board. And I'm actually complimenting him by saying he should have easily moved to LF for a year or two then move back w/o it affecting him. If he didn't like it, the only reason would be ego and yeah, I'll criticize him for that.

    (I'll ignore the full of it remark).
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    And for the record, when Yaz moved to 1b it was for future Hall of Famer Jim Rice, not for Jim Rice at 38. When Yaz went back to left, it was because he played so well in 75 playoffs after Rice got hurt. Sox said "we'll put Jim Ed at DH"....If Ellsbury moves to LF for Johnny Damon at age 28, now I'm a little understanding of his move. He was moved for a 38-year-old guy. I'm sorry, and I know it's terrible how Cameron's Sox career was hurt by a terrible injury that he played through, but by the time he was moved to a platoon the next season, it was he who could not handle the platoon, and he hit like Mendoza. So one more time, Ellsbury...not a versatile player...Ellsbury not a future CF who already was a CF who had to move for a 38-year-old has been. I don't know who Rose moved for, but I do know if you move positions, there better be a very good reason....
    Posted by dannycater


    OK let's make sure the record is correct.

    Yaz moved from LF to CF (after winning a GG) when Tony C., the future RF came up in 1964. The RF was Lee Thomas. Thomas moved to 1B the next year and Yaz and Tony C went back to their natural positions. Sure, you could say he moved for Tony C, but the fact is, based on who the OF'ers were, Yaz was the best option for CF leaving LF for Tony C and RF for Thomas. When Thomas moved out of the OF (except for spot starts), you notice Yaz was moved back to LF and Tony C moved to RF. 

    Yaz moved to 1B the first time in the prime of his career at age 30 in 1970, long before Rice joined the team. He played 94 G at 1B and 69 at 3B. You know who played LF that year -- Billy Conigliaro (108 games) who played all of four seasons (maybe five) in the majors. Yaz went back to LF in 1971, by the time Rice came up in 1975, Yaz was primarily a 1B in 1973 (107 G) and 1974 (84 G).

    When he moved to 1B in 1970 and in 1972 and 1973, he hardly was replaced by a better player.

    Ellsbury was moved because of a better defensive player. Cameron was a proven Gold Glover. Ellsbury is better than some give him credit for being in CF but he still has a ways to go become as good as Cameron was in his prime in CF.

    And let's keep the record clear even more. Yaz didn't move to LF because he played so well in 1975 playoffs. In 1976, he still was the primary starting 1B (94 games). He moved back fulltime in 1977 (140 games) because the Sox got 33-year-old George Scott was seven-time Gold Glover at 1B. So of course, he was going to take over 1B and not DH over Yaz. So the Sox moved 37-year-old Yaz (same age as Cameron) back to LF where he won another GG and DH'ed 24-year-old Rice, who was being groomed -- to use your term -- as the future LF. Cameron isn't Yaz, of course, as an all-around player but from a defensive standpoint he was.

    Rose is a little more trickier. He started out as a 2B. At age 26, he moved to LF to replace Deron Williams and was replaced at 2B by Tommy Helms. Then at age 27 he replaced Tommy Harper in RF and was replaced in LF by Alex Johnson. After about three seasons as the RF, winning a GG or two, he went back to LF. Cesar Geronimo took over in RF. He played LF for about three seasons before moving to 3B to rpelace Dan Driessen when George Foster was ready to take over in LF.

    The point is he and Yaz moved to where they were needed for the good of the team based on who else was on the team. In nearly every case, the player who replaced them at the old position was a lesser player, but the move was made because they were needed at new positions.

    So tell me. If Yaz at age 37 could go back out to LF full time and win a Gold Glove, replacing a 24-year-old, why is it such big deal that Cameron at age 37, coming off a strong year (149 GP), was going to come over and start in CF and move the younger guy for a short term.

    The more I looked, Yaz is better example than I first thought. The examples I used were to show young guys moved out of their original position all the time for various reasons, not necessarily because they were similar to Cameron/Ellsbury situation. The one thing they had in common was that the moves were made because the team (FO/manager) felt it was best lineup for the team. If Hall of Famers can be moved around for inferiour players, sometimes older, sometimes younger, why can't Ellsbury?

    And like I said, I would have kept Ellsbury in CF. I just don't think it was a big deal for them to move him.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    See, you're never wrong, I thought you were, but then I was mistaken...Again, my biggest gripe with the Cameron move was I felt it did or could be perceived as the Sox not showing faith in JE, and I was not confident in signing a 38-year-old to play a fulltime role in CF. It just didn't make sense to me the direction of the team only a season after JE played I thought a pretty good CF....He thought so too, but unlike the Yaz situation, JE is a prototypical CF. Yaz was quite versatile (very good 1b too) and Youks is versatile too (he has a good glove, and you can translate that to OF...he played only a few games, and that's not a good sample size to use to call him a butcher). CC is a butcher if you look at some of his recent play. You may disagree with JE being a prototypical CF, but I just didn't think the timing of that move made sense. I was wrong about the second Yaz move, I forgot that it was Boomer coming back to Boston allowing for King Carl to go back to LF. Yaz was very accomodating as a captain and did get shuffled a lot...due to his versatility. I disagree that JE is "versatile." Most guys who play OF can play at least RF,LF. He can, but he looks more comfortable in CF, and you yourself felt Cameron probably should have played LF. That tells me that you were among a majority of people who were skeptical why JE was moved. in the first place to LF from CF. expitch and I think it has as much to do with the Sox lack of confidence (then, not now) in him.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Either way, the CC deal did not make sense either, even after the Cameron debacle. If anything, knowing JE was now healthy, there was more of a need for a RH hitting LF in a lefty predominant lineup.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Yes the RS should have gotten a RH OFer. Who? The FA market had one guy, Werth. The Nats offer was so over the top, Boras did not even bother trying to best it at the Winter Meetings, very unusal for Boras.

    Once that happened the RS weren't going to make a splash in the OF via trade (they spent those chips on A-Gon) and they talked themselves into Crawford. I am a big Ellsbury fan and there was nothing about Ellsbury's trajectory that suggested he was going to display the power he has thus far this year or anything in Crawford's history that suggested the kind of April-May he had this season was remotely possible.

    Split milk at any rate. And I will repeat, with or without Carl Crawford here Ellsbury was and will be a tough signing for them after the 2013 season. He was not and is not doing a Youk/Pedey extension. he will go to the highest bidder.

    In baseball two season can be an eternity. Two seasons ago our FT starting catcher was Jason Varitek, our 3B was Mike Lowell, the SS were Lugo and Lowrie and Okie was our primary set up man.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    Yes the RS should have gotten a RH OFer. Who? The FA market had one guy, Werth. The Nats offer was so over the top, Boras did not even bother trying to best it at the Winter Meetings, very unusal for Boras. Once that happened the RS weren't going to make a splash in the OF via trade (they spent those chips on A-Gon) and they talked themselves into Crawford. I am a big Ellsbury fan and there was nothing about Ellsbury's trajectory that suggested he was going to display the power he has thus far this year or anything in Crawford's history that suggested the kind of April-May he had this season was remotely possible. Split milk at any rate. And I will repeat, with or without Carl Crawford here Ellsbury was and will be a tough signing for them after the 2013 season. He was not and is not doing a Youk/Pedey extension. he will go to the highest bidder. In baseball two season can be an eternity. Two seasons ago our FT starting catcher was Jason Varitek, our 3B was Mike Lowell, the SS were Lugo and Lowrie and Okie was our primary set up man.
    Posted by fivekatz
    Right, even one season can be an eternity as fortunes wax and wane. Ellsbury might not be with the club at the end of 2013. Crawford will be, with years to go.
    I won't get into the debate about moving position players around. My guess, as I said, is that there was more to moving Ellsbury to LF than the FO let on. I don't know about moving other centerfielders on other teams in other years, but, IMO, it was a mistake to move THIS centerfielder at that point in his career. A two-year hiatus would not have been negligible. Even one year in baseball terms is a hunk of experience. Ellsbury needed all the experience he could get -- if Theo envisioned him in that slot for years to come. I seriously doubt that Theo had that in mind. Who else Theo might have had in mind is impossible to know, but Kalish is at least a possibility or Reddick if Theo still believed that he would eventually get the hang of the strike zone. 
    If Ellsbury is still with the club and continues to perform at a high level, yes, he would be hard to keep after 2013 even without Crawford on the roster.  But that is not the same as saying that Crawford's presence makes no difference at all. Money, among other things, will be factored in; Crawford has a bulging bank account. Any way you slice it, Theo's decisions to reposition Ellsbury and to sign Crawford have not made life easier for the GM. Or so it appears now. 
    Meanwhile, eternity moves forward. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Nice article. Thanks for sharing. Clearly Youk and Theo "now" totally understand that a) Youk was speaking out of turn and his facts were selfish. Ells absolutely did the right thing by going to AZ, and even uses the rationale that he was helping the team med and trainer staff deal with all of the other injuries and b) Theo is embarrased as to how this was handled and has instituted new policies and procedures in terms of how the Red Sox deal with injuries.

    Ellsbury is a stand up guy, tough competitor...always has been...and is feeding his critics a constant diet of crow this year. Laughing

    It is the Red Sox medical staff that should be unconditionally released. They are awful and have been for some time.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share