Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

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    [QUOTE]And for the record, when Yaz moved to 1b it was for future Hall of Famer Jim Rice, not for Jim Rice at 38. When Yaz went back to left, it was because he played so well in 75 playoffs after Rice got hurt. Sox said "we'll put Jim Ed at DH"....If Ellsbury moves to LF for Johnny Damon at age 28, now I'm a little understanding of his move. He was moved for a 38-year-old guy. I'm sorry, and I know it's terrible how Cameron's Sox career was hurt by a terrible injury that he played through, but by the time he was moved to a platoon the next season, it was he who could not handle the platoon, and he hit like Mendoza. So one more time, Ellsbury...not a versatile player...Ellsbury not a future CF who already was a CF who had to move for a 38-year-old has been. I don't know who Rose moved for, but I do know if you move positions, there better be a very good reason....
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    OK let's make sure the record is correct.

    Yaz moved from LF to CF (after winning a GG) when Tony C., the future RF came up in 1964. The RF was Lee Thomas. Thomas moved to 1B the next year and Yaz and Tony C went back to their natural positions. Sure, you could say he moved for Tony C, but the fact is, based on who the OF'ers were, Yaz was the best option for CF leaving LF for Tony C and RF for Thomas. When Thomas moved out of the OF (except for spot starts), you notice Yaz was moved back to LF and Tony C moved to RF. 

    Yaz moved to 1B the first time in the prime of his career at age 30 in 1970, long before Rice joined the team. He played 94 G at 1B and 69 at 3B. You know who played LF that year -- Billy Conigliaro (108 games) who played all of four seasons (maybe five) in the majors. Yaz went back to LF in 1971, by the time Rice came up in 1975, Yaz was primarily a 1B in 1973 (107 G) and 1974 (84 G).

    When he moved to 1B in 1970 and in 1972 and 1973, he hardly was replaced by a better player.

    Ellsbury was moved because of a better defensive player. Cameron was a proven Gold Glover. Ellsbury is better than some give him credit for being in CF but he still has a ways to go become as good as Cameron was in his prime in CF.

    And let's keep the record clear even more. Yaz didn't move to LF because he played so well in 1975 playoffs. In 1976, he still was the primary starting 1B (94 games). He moved back fulltime in 1977 (140 games) because the Sox got 33-year-old George Scott was seven-time Gold Glover at 1B. So of course, he was going to take over 1B and not DH over Yaz. So the Sox moved 37-year-old Yaz (same age as Cameron) back to LF where he won another GG and DH'ed 24-year-old Rice, who was being groomed -- to use your term -- as the future LF. Cameron isn't Yaz, of course, as an all-around player but from a defensive standpoint he was.

    Rose is a little more trickier. He started out as a 2B. At age 26, he moved to LF to replace Deron Williams and was replaced at 2B by Tommy Helms. Then at age 27 he replaced Tommy Harper in RF and was replaced in LF by Alex Johnson. After about three seasons as the RF, winning a GG or two, he went back to LF. Cesar Geronimo took over in RF. He played LF for about three seasons before moving to 3B to rpelace Dan Driessen when George Foster was ready to take over in LF.

    The point is he and Yaz moved to where they were needed for the good of the team based on who else was on the team. In nearly every case, the player who replaced them at the old position was a lesser player, but the move was made because they were needed at new positions.

    So tell me. If Yaz at age 37 could go back out to LF full time and win a Gold Glove, replacing a 24-year-old, why is it such big deal that Cameron at age 37, coming off a strong year (149 GP), was going to come over and start in CF and move the younger guy for a short term.

    The more I looked, Yaz is better example than I first thought. The examples I used were to show young guys moved out of their original position all the time for various reasons, not necessarily because they were similar to Cameron/Ellsbury situation. The one thing they had in common was that the moves were made because the team (FO/manager) felt it was best lineup for the team. If Hall of Famers can be moved around for inferiour players, sometimes older, sometimes younger, why can't Ellsbury?

    And like I said, I would have kept Ellsbury in CF. I just don't think it was a big deal for them to move him.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    See, you're never wrong, I thought you were, but then I was mistaken...Again, my biggest gripe with the Cameron move was I felt it did or could be perceived as the Sox not showing faith in JE, and I was not confident in signing a 38-year-old to play a fulltime role in CF. It just didn't make sense to me the direction of the team only a season after JE played I thought a pretty good CF....He thought so too, but unlike the Yaz situation, JE is a prototypical CF. Yaz was quite versatile (very good 1b too) and Youks is versatile too (he has a good glove, and you can translate that to OF...he played only a few games, and that's not a good sample size to use to call him a butcher). CC is a butcher if you look at some of his recent play. You may disagree with JE being a prototypical CF, but I just didn't think the timing of that move made sense. I was wrong about the second Yaz move, I forgot that it was Boomer coming back to Boston allowing for King Carl to go back to LF. Yaz was very accomodating as a captain and did get shuffled a lot...due to his versatility. I disagree that JE is "versatile." Most guys who play OF can play at least RF,LF. He can, but he looks more comfortable in CF, and you yourself felt Cameron probably should have played LF. That tells me that you were among a majority of people who were skeptical why JE was moved. in the first place to LF from CF. expitch and I think it has as much to do with the Sox lack of confidence (then, not now) in him.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Either way, the CC deal did not make sense either, even after the Cameron debacle. If anything, knowing JE was now healthy, there was more of a need for a RH hitting LF in a lefty predominant lineup.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Yes the RS should have gotten a RH OFer. Who? The FA market had one guy, Werth. The Nats offer was so over the top, Boras did not even bother trying to best it at the Winter Meetings, very unusal for Boras.

    Once that happened the RS weren't going to make a splash in the OF via trade (they spent those chips on A-Gon) and they talked themselves into Crawford. I am a big Ellsbury fan and there was nothing about Ellsbury's trajectory that suggested he was going to display the power he has thus far this year or anything in Crawford's history that suggested the kind of April-May he had this season was remotely possible.

    Split milk at any rate. And I will repeat, with or without Carl Crawford here Ellsbury was and will be a tough signing for them after the 2013 season. He was not and is not doing a Youk/Pedey extension. he will go to the highest bidder.

    In baseball two season can be an eternity. Two seasons ago our FT starting catcher was Jason Varitek, our 3B was Mike Lowell, the SS were Lugo and Lowrie and Okie was our primary set up man.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

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    [QUOTE]Yes the RS should have gotten a RH OFer. Who? The FA market had one guy, Werth. The Nats offer was so over the top, Boras did not even bother trying to best it at the Winter Meetings, very unusal for Boras. Once that happened the RS weren't going to make a splash in the OF via trade (they spent those chips on A-Gon) and they talked themselves into Crawford. I am a big Ellsbury fan and there was nothing about Ellsbury's trajectory that suggested he was going to display the power he has thus far this year or anything in Crawford's history that suggested the kind of April-May he had this season was remotely possible. Split milk at any rate. And I will repeat, with or without Carl Crawford here Ellsbury was and will be a tough signing for them after the 2013 season. He was not and is not doing a Youk/Pedey extension. he will go to the highest bidder. In baseball two season can be an eternity. Two seasons ago our FT starting catcher was Jason Varitek, our 3B was Mike Lowell, the SS were Lugo and Lowrie and Okie was our primary set up man.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]
    Right, even one season can be an eternity as fortunes wax and wane. Ellsbury might not be with the club at the end of 2013. Crawford will be, with years to go.
    I won't get into the debate about moving position players around. My guess, as I said, is that there was more to moving Ellsbury to LF than the FO let on. I don't know about moving other centerfielders on other teams in other years, but, IMO, it was a mistake to move THIS centerfielder at that point in his career. A two-year hiatus would not have been negligible. Even one year in baseball terms is a hunk of experience. Ellsbury needed all the experience he could get -- if Theo envisioned him in that slot for years to come. I seriously doubt that Theo had that in mind. Who else Theo might have had in mind is impossible to know, but Kalish is at least a possibility or Reddick if Theo still believed that he would eventually get the hang of the strike zone. 
    If Ellsbury is still with the club and continues to perform at a high level, yes, he would be hard to keep after 2013 even without Crawford on the roster.  But that is not the same as saying that Crawford's presence makes no difference at all. Money, among other things, will be factored in; Crawford has a bulging bank account. Any way you slice it, Theo's decisions to reposition Ellsbury and to sign Crawford have not made life easier for the GM. Or so it appears now. 
    Meanwhile, eternity moves forward. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Nice article. Thanks for sharing. Clearly Youk and Theo "now" totally understand that a) Youk was speaking out of turn and his facts were selfish. Ells absolutely did the right thing by going to AZ, and even uses the rationale that he was helping the team med and trainer staff deal with all of the other injuries and b) Theo is embarrased as to how this was handled and has instituted new policies and procedures in terms of how the Red Sox deal with injuries.

    Ellsbury is a stand up guy, tough competitor...always has been...and is feeding his critics a constant diet of crow this year. Laughing

    It is the Red Sox medical staff that should be unconditionally released. They are awful and have been for some time.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]See, you're never wrong, I thought you were, but then I was mistaken...Again, my biggest gripe with the Cameron move was I felt it did or could be perceived as the Sox not showing faith in JE, and I was not confident in signing a 38-year-old to play a fulltime role in CF. It just didn't make sense to me the direction of the team only a season after JE played I thought a pretty good CF....He thought so too, but unlike the Yaz situation, JE is a prototypical CF. Yaz was quite versatile (very good 1b too) and Youks is versatile too (he has a good glove, and you can translate that to OF...he played only a few games, and that's not a good sample size to use to call him a butcher). CC is a butcher if you look at some of his recent play. You may disagree with JE being a prototypical CF, but I just didn't think the timing of that move made sense. I was wrong about the second Yaz move, I forgot that it was Boomer coming back to Boston allowing for King Carl to go back to LF. Yaz was very accomodating as a captain and did get shuffled a lot...due to his versatility. I disagree that JE is "versatile." Most guys who play OF can play at least RF,LF. He can, but he looks more comfortable in CF, and you yourself felt Cameron probably should have played LF. That tells me that you were among a majority of people who were skeptical why JE was moved. in the first place to LF from CF. expitch and I think it has as much to do with the Sox lack of confidence (then, not now) in him.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I never looked at moving Ellsbury to CF as not having confidence in him. Maybe that was the case, but I simply saw the move that Cameron was a GG CF and never played LF at Fenway. So even though I would have kept Ellsbury in CF -- I do think of him as a protypical CF -- I never thought it was a big deal to move Ellsbury to LF for a year since he had experience there at Fenway. I think it was blown way out of the proportion was that the reason Ellsbury was moved was because of no faith in him. I've seen many good/great players -- like I wrote -- who were moved out of their best/natural position simply because based on the players available. It shouldn't have been a big deal.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    The Sox staff fired the guy who did the Schilling ankle surgery that helped save the Sox...Why? Ever since 2005, the Sox have had nothing but a plethora of players who were either misdiagnosed, given poor advice, or rushed back into play without knowing they were more injured than originally thought. I can understand some, but it's gotten pretty bad with Sox pitchers and now positional players. 
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

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    [QUOTE]Either way, the CC deal did not make sense either, even after the Cameron debacle. If anything, knowing JE was now healthy, there was more of a need for a RH hitting LF in a lefty predominant lineup.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I kind of agree about CC. I don't have a problem with him being on the team. He's a good player who should be even better down the road than he has been. The problem was that there wasn't anyone else available last offseason. Werth has been a huge bust so far in Washington. So if the Sox didn't sign Crawford, the question I have is who would be in LF this year.

    I never was one of those who was drooling after Crawford a couple of years ago when there were all sorts of threads saying how the Sox should grab Crawford. He's a good player, but I always thought he was a big overrated. I certainly don't like the contract. I don't think he's worth it.

    But seperating the contract from the player, I think Crawford will be a valuable player in the long run, and I hope it doesn't prevent the Sox to signing Ellsbury long term down the road.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year : I never looked at moving Ellsbury to CF as not having confidence in him. Maybe that was the case, but I simply saw the move that Cameron was a GG CF and never played LF at Fenway. So even though I would have kept Ellsbury in CF -- I do think of him as a protypical CF -- I never thought it was a big deal to move Ellsbury to LF for a year since he had experience there at Fenway. I think it was blown way out of the proportion was that the reason Ellsbury was moved was because of no faith in him. I've seen many good/great players -- like I wrote -- who were moved out of their best/natural position simply because based on the players available. It shouldn't have been a big deal.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    ok, if it wasn't a big deal, then how come it is now. . .I can tell you why. Because CC got a 142-million dollar contract. How much money will the Sox spend on keeping Ellsbury? Answer, they won't match what he wants. So this little move that you feel shouldn't have been an issue at all, really was an important step in moving Ellsbury out of Boston. It ignited a chain reaction of events--the injury in LF, the rehab, the criticism from Sox insiders/execs over the length of and location of the rehab, the chip on his shoulder that has now helped him become a marquee player, and the subsequent likelihood that the Sox (Theo) will have an easy time saying bye to him. They will use the same excuse they have used before--well, he's asking for too much money. He will leave and then Theo will be a hero anyway because all of the fans here will say "he knows what he's doing, look at the 2 WS rings."

     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    I'm with ex on the conspiracy theory, it makes sense.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

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    I know a lot of people think I use salary too much to criticize players, but part of my thinking on it is how that money coulda/shoulda been used. If you set precedents by giving out large bushels of cash to guys like Crawford (142), Lackey (82), one a LF, the other a SP, you have to look at the effect it has on everyone else in the organization and beyond. I am rooting hard that the Sox win in 2011, and I historically have been a "win now, ask questions later" type of fan, but it's pretty sad to think that the Sox will probably not have back their all-star CF, all-star closer, and all-star DH. Money spent elsewhere for over-rated players over money spent on productive talents. I thought Dice-K was a good move, and I still think it was worth it despite the recent results. I will call into question only slightly Drew, but that is because I do think he should have been more of a RBI guy for the team. He did pretty much everything else for the most part well enough for his salary. 
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    The only good thing about the 142M Crawford mistake was that the same mistake won't be made on Ellsbury. Crawford, despite his career low season, is a little better talent and player than Ellsbury.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year : ok, if it wasn't a big deal, then how come it is now. . .I can tell you why. Because CC got a 142-million dollar contract. How much money will the Sox spend on keeping Ellsbury? Answer, they won't match what he wants. So this little move that you feel shouldn't have been an issue at all, really was an important step in moving Ellsbury out of Boston. It ignited a chain reaction of events--the injury in LF, the rehab, the criticism from Sox insiders/execs over the length of and location of the rehab, the chip on his shoulder that has now helped him become a marquee player, and the subsequent likelihood that the Sox (Theo) will have an easy time saying bye to him. They will use the same excuse they have used before--well, he's asking for too much money. He will leave and then Theo will be a hero anyway because all of the fans here will say "he knows what he's doing, look at the 2 WS rings."
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    So you already have Ellsbury out of town? Maybe he won't be re-signed. But I'm not going to b itch about somethign that may or may not happen until it actually does.

    I also don't fall into the camp that the reason Ellsbury is so good is because he's playing with a chip on his shoulder. He was showing improvement every year, so I expected him to come back strong. He's hitting more home runs than I expected, but if he jumped to about 15 last year, which is what I expected, then jumping to low to mid-20s isn't a big stretch. I figured he would have at least Johnny Damon power. I could end up with high 20s, which is more than I expected.

    Beyond that, I'm not going to make guess or assumptions on why they signed Crawford or whether or not they would have signed him had Ellsbury not gotten hurt last year. Let's say Cameron played LF and Ellsbury played CF and Ellsbury had a strong year but Cameron had his injurie problems. They still would have been looking for another OF and it likely would have come down to Werth and Crawford for LF. There are too many leaps to be made. What would have happened if Ellsbury stayed in CF and got hurt running into anther OF or the wall.

    I'll just stick with how I see things. Moving Ellsbury to LF shouldn't have been considered a big deal. I don't know how it relates to the Crawford signing. I like Crawford OK as a player, but he's overpaid for too long. I hate the contract, but I'll still root for the player. I don't know if his contract will prevent the Sox from signing Ellsbury long term. Maybe it will, but I hope not. A lot of things can change between now and then. And if the Sox win a W.S. or two between now and then, then all the moves will be worth it.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year : So you already have Ellsbury out of town? Maybe he won't be re-signed. But I'm not going to b itch about somethign that may or may not happen until it actually does. I also don't fall into the camp that the reason Ellsbury is so good is because he's playing with a chip on his shoulder. He was showing improvement every year, so I expected him to come back strong. He's hitting more home runs than I expected, but if he jumped to about 15 last year, which is what I expected, then jumping to low to mid-20s isn't a big stretch. I figured he would have at least Johnny Damon power. I could end up with high 20s, which is more than I expected. Beyond that, I'm not going to make guess or assumptions on why they signed Crawford or whether or not they would have signed him had Ellsbury not gotten hurt last year. Let's say Cameron played LF and Ellsbury played CF and Ellsbury had a strong year but Cameron had his injurie problems. They still would have been looking for another OF and it likely would have come down to Werth and Crawford for LF. There are too many leaps to be made. What would have happened if Ellsbury stayed in CF and got hurt running into anther OF or the wall. I'll just stick with how I see things. Moving Ellsbury to LF shouldn't have been considered a big deal. I don't know how it relates to the Crawford signing. I like Crawford OK as a player, but he's overpaid for too long. I hate the contract, but I'll still root for the player. I don't know if his contract will prevent the Sox from signing Ellsbury long term. Maybe it will, but I hope not. A lot of things can change between now and then. And if the Sox win a W.S. or two between now and then, then all the moves will be worth it.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    roy, I used to root with a mind-set of getting to know the players, and enjoying their talents for a stretch of seasons. It's getting harder and harder with the business side taking over and the sabermetric, computer geeks running baseball executive offices. I feel like I'm forced to be a Win Now fan because the players I root for and produce for the hometown team are here, and then gone the moment someone says "long-term contract." I hate long-term contracts when it comes to the Red Sox. It almost always goes to a guy we as fans have to like no matter what because the team brought him in long term. I wish it was applied more to the Sox who have been here and have performed well-Papelbon, Ellsbury--than it is applied to a CC or Lackey. Just my take.

     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    I think 2011 might be the year...:-)...well, it may well have to be.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Good thread.  I am now convinced--I certainly wasn't before--that hanging onto Ellsbury is going to be difficult and that losing him started when Cameron was brought in and completed when Crawford was acquired.    The message to Ellsbury is very clear:  you're not really a centerfielder (not like Cameron), and you're really not that good (because Crawford is worth $142M and you aren't).  Funny thing is, this is close to what softlaw has been saying all along:  Ellsbury can't play centerfield, and he really isn't that good. 

    Now I for one have believed firmly that softlaw is wrong about Ellsbury, which means I also think Epstein miscalculated.  Fivekatz has put the best face on this.  He says:  when Theo acquired Cameron, he needed a third outfielder, and Cameron was a righty with power and good fielding--and reasonably cheap because of his age.  And probably a better centerfielder.  Then Cameron bombed completely and Ellsbury missed an entire season.  So the outfield gap remained, and Crawford was maybe the best available to fill it, even at a horrendous price which makes JD Drew look like a bargain.  Now Theo is stuck with two bad bargains:  Crawford and Cameron (who is playing for the Marlins but is paid by the Sox). 
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

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    [QUOTE]Something tells me the Sox better win this year because it's quite possible they will lose Papelbon, Ellsbury and Ortiz. And that's a lot of talent to lose on the free agent market.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Totally agree.  My brother and I are having a bitter disagreement- he says how can the Sox let an MVP like Ellsbury go? I say how can the Sox pay Ellsbury while they are paying the same player (without the mysterious 2011 power) in Crawford and who is represented by Boras?  There's 0 chance he re-signs in Boston.

    PS I hated signing Cameron too, but only because it was a symptom of the Sox going cheap on Bay. I still think they should have signed him, and Bay's subsequent concussion and other problems have nothing to do with how it might have gone in Boston in 2010.

    However, Ellsbury's injury has zero to do with being switched out of CF.  Just arbitrary bad luck, period.

    I also think signing Crawford was the right thing to do. Too many people look BACK and say "SEE??" like with Gagne, etc. However, Ells was looking like maybe, he took a step back, whether he was injured or not.  No human on the planet could expect him to suddenly go Brady Anderson and approach 30 HR.  The only thing you could see coming was Boras not letting him sign in Boston, necessitating a grab of Crawford.  It was the right thing to do.

    Besides, how can we complain about going cheap at times (Bay, VMart) and overpaying other times (Lackey, Crawford).  I'm a little surprised Lackey has been as bad as he has been, but anyone who says Crawford is overrated is dreaming.  I like when the Red Sox pay up.  I'd rather they act like the Yankee$ rather than the Royals.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year : roy, I used to root with a mind-set of getting to know the players, and enjoying their talents for a stretch of seasons. It's getting harder and harder with the business side taking over and the sabermetric, computer geeks running baseball executive offices. I feel like I'm forced to be a Win Now fan because the players I root for and produce for the hometown team are here, and then gone the moment someone says "long-term contract." I hate long-term contracts when it comes to the Red Sox. It almost always goes to a guy we as fans have to like no matter what because the team brought him in long term. I wish it was applied more to the Sox who have been here and have performed well-Papelbon, Ellsbury--than it is applied to a CC or Lackey. Just my take.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I don't think the main problem is that computer geeks run baseball offices. Theo does balance old school and new school more than his critics give him credit for. Players not staying with one team, however, has nothing to do with the "geeks" in the front office. It's because of free agency. If it's happening more it's because of the money involved, not because of who is in the front office or how players are being evaluated.

    However, the rest of your post I agree with. I'm not a big fan of long-term contracts because more often than not, especially with pitchers, the team gets burned. I do, however, probably have a different view on what constitutes long term. To me, it's anything over five years. I don't see five years as necessarily a long term.

    We'll see what happens with some of the homegrown players. It makes no sense to me to sign Crawford for seven years but not Ellsbury. Most of the players the Sox didn't sign long term that were lost to FA were right decisions.

    But the problem of players not lasting long with their original team because of money is a boat that sailed long ago. Me, I like homegrown talent. I'd rather see the Sox keep guys like Ellsbury, Paps, Pedey, Youk, Lester, Buch, etc.

    There does sometimes seem to be a combination of "grass is greener" and "familiarity breeds contempt" going on. A team knows its players better so seem to overemphasize the faults, which leads to the grass is greener mentality.

    Of all the records that won't be broken records out there, you have to list Yaz's record of most games with one team because I doubt there ever will be a player who plays as many games with one teams as Yaz has done with the Red Sox. I hate the player movement too, but no matter who is in the front office, that genie won't be put back in the bottle.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year : So you already have Ellsbury out of town? Maybe he won't be re-signed. But I'm not going to b itch about somethign that may or may not happen until it actually does. I also don't fall into the camp that the reason Ellsbury is so good is because he's playing with a chip on his shoulder. He was showing improvement every year, so I expected him to come back strong. He's hitting more home runs than I expected, but if he jumped to about 15 last year, which is what I expected, then jumping to low to mid-20s isn't a big stretch. I figured he would have at least Johnny Damon power. I could end up with high 20s, which is more than I expected. Beyond that, I'm not going to make guess or assumptions on why they signed Crawford or whether or not they would have signed him had Ellsbury not gotten hurt last year. Let's say Cameron played LF and Ellsbury played CF and Ellsbury had a strong year but Cameron had his injurie problems. They still would have been looking for another OF and it likely would have come down to Werth and Crawford for LF. There are too many leaps to be made. What would have happened if Ellsbury stayed in CF and got hurt running into anther OF or the wall. I'll just stick with how I see things. Moving Ellsbury to LF shouldn't have been considered a big deal. I don't know how it relates to the Crawford signing. I like Crawford OK as a player, but he's overpaid for too long. I hate the contract, but I'll still root for the player. I don't know if his contract will prevent the Sox from signing Ellsbury long term. Maybe it will, but I hope not. A lot of things can change between now and then. And if the Sox win a W.S. or two between now and then, then all the moves will be worth it.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]
    We'll have to disagree about whether repositioning Ellsbury was a big deal. Not any player, not any centerfielder, but Ellsbury yes. As I've said, when you move him at that time for at least one, probably two years, its is at the very least a hint that the Sox were thinking -- at least thinking -- of other people for the position.  No matter what Ellsbury was told by the FO and by Terry, he must have had his suspicions. Unlike you, I do think that the evidence at least gives rise to the suspicions pretty clearly. And, yes, it made a difference that Cameron was 38 and might not have had even one good year left, let alone two, his last couple of years elsewhere notwithstanding.  All things being equal, at his age he was more liable to injury than was Ellsbury, who was zonked by an accident. I also think that signing Crawford makes it less likely, if not certain, that Ellsbury will leave Boston, by one means or other. As far as I know, Ellsbury did nothing but cooperate and play hard after the decision to move him was made. Yup, I think Theo botched this one. BTW, the Sox could win two championships in spite of these moves. In this context, I see no good reason even to bring up the notion of "team player." In fact, I see good reason not to mention it. 
    On another but related topic, IMO, the argument in favor of snagging "the best available" for a position, cost be damned, is not persuasive. But it sure is honey for agents and players. That's a topic for another thread.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Oops, I meant to say "more likely" not "less likely."
    Let me add that an aging OFer trying to cover all that ground in the expanse of center and right-center in Fenway was more likely to come up lame than would have been a young speedster. I believe that the FO ( and Terry ) in part justified the switch by saying that Cameron had the better arm. IMO, the "better arm" is more useful in LF in Fenway because the shallow field allows the fielder a shot at holding balls off the wall to a single ( as Manny did more than once ) and at throwing runners out at the plate, or at least keeping them from trying to score. A right arm in left makes better sense than a left one, because on balls down the line or into the corner, a right arm can come up throwing whereas a left arm must await a full turn or almost a full turn of the body before firing. That difference in time can make a difference on close plays.
    Nope, the arm argument won't work -- unless Theo and Terry don't know their own playing field. 
    It sure looks to me as though Ellsbury was being kicked out of center. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    Bottom line remains, however:  moving Ellsbury to LF after acquiring Cameron and then bringing in Crawford for $142 million was a clear signal by Theo that Ellsbury was the odd man out.  Each decision has some good logic behind it, but the cumulative message is unmistakeable. 

    And it was exacerbated by the initially undiagnosed broken ribs combined with Youk becoming unofficial team spokesman and chastising Jake, basically for trying to get well.  I said  a year ago I thought going to Arizona was a smart move and that Pedroia's efforts to play again before being fully healed was a mistake.   This year, it should be noted, Pedroia is much more cautious about his health/knee, and Buchholz and others are more than happy to get second or even third opinions on what ails them.   
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year:
    [QUOTE]Oops, I meant to say "more likely" not "less likely." Let me add that an aging OFer trying to cover all that ground in the expanse of center and right-center in Fenway was more likely to come up lame than would have been a young speedster. I believe that the FO ( and Terry ) in part justified the switch by saying that Cameron had the better arm. IMO, the "better arm" is more useful in LF in Fenway because the shallow field allows the fielder a shot at holding balls off the wall to a single ( as Manny did more than once ) and at throwing runners out at the plate, or at least keeping them from trying to score. A right arm in left makes better sense than a left one, because on balls down the line or into the corner, a right arm can come up throwing whereas a left arm must await a full turn or almost a full turn of the body before firing. That difference in time can make a difference on close plays. Nope, the arm argument won't work -- unless Theo and Terry don't know their own playing field.  It sure looks to me as though Ellsbury was being kicked out of center. 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Last year, I brought up the very fact that it's better to have a stronger arm in LF because of the frequent number of plays at the plate on singles to left at Fenway and the ability to make the sharp throw from the Monster to either 3b or 2B. I also felt that CF doesn't need as big an arm because of the natural cutoff guys at SS/2B in either gap. That was part of my point about CC too. Why would you want a left-handed thrower with a sub-average arm in LF at Fenway? The only other lefty throwing LF I've known is Troy O'Leary and he was not exactly a "fine" defensive outfielder. Manny, Yaz, Rice, and even Greenwell could make the plays as righty throwers and seemed more fit to play the Wall. Cameron did have the better arm, and I felt once he was signed he still should have been put in LF at Fenway. If you really want to get radical, the Sox (20-20 hindsight now, which I really don't like how so many fans go on the attack thinking everything is 20-20 hindsight when a lot of fans call it the mistakes BEFORE they become mistakes) "could" have maybe had the best of both worlds by playing Ellsbury in CF...at home..and Cameron in CF..on the road. Because in some ballparks now you are dealing with dimensions that call for a better throwing CF. All this said, I absolutely was sickened by the Cameron signing, and I will find my post when someone listed season predictions for Cameron, and I wrote "Not Enough At Bats due to injury"...It wasn't a hard prediction due to the age factor. For those that say well Cameron had never been hurt seriously before--I say to them---that means at his age he's over due. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    roy, in any setting, if you took all of the change of position guys who changed positions over the years, I can't find a worse decision than Cameron goes to CF, Ellsbury goes to LF. Maybe it was the bad karma of the move that resulted in Beltre running over Ellsbury like a freight train and Cameron pulling his abdominals. I don't know. But I do know this--I just didn't see a positive in moving a guy who was a natural CF and young, and fast. To see him back in CF this year was refreshing. And obviously Ellsbury enjoys the challenge of CF as he gets to balls a lot of guys don't get to. I hope he helps the Sox win the WS title. After that....probably bye-bye to about 3 key players. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Ellsbury speaks about his injury last year

    I hate to say it but if I had to pick between the 3 guys, and I can only have one--I'd take Papelbon. He is a sure thing closer. He's not going to "lose" it anytime soon, and he had his rough patch last year (after the year-before debacle v. Anaheim in playoff). His numbers in postseason are legendary and he's throwing more impressive this season I think since going back some 3 years. I just don't see Ellsbury coming back for under $150 million and I don't see Ortiz coming back for the team discount. 
     

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