Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 7:01 PM EDT
- hill55
- Posts: 7699
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Still say that Cashman would make that trade in one minute. Theo would not. That is all you need to know. Career stats for players that are still improving do not mean so much.
Posted by dgalehouse
Half-season stats mean even less.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 7:04 PM EDT
- dgalehouse
- Posts: 9796
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Half-season stats mean even less.
Posted by hill55
Okay. Put it this way. Would you , as the Sox G.M. , make that trade? I know that I would not.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 7:20 PM EDT
- Camelwalk
- Posts: 1371
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : I think they are comparing leadoff hitters to leadoff hitters. What is apples and oranges about that? This is the only way to compare them. Comparing Granderson to Ells makes no sense because they are very different offensive players. I guess I don't get what the big deal is. Ellsbury is having a very good year and so is Granderson. Curtis is a very good ballplayer. What now?
Posted by jimdavis
Who is the Yankee leadoff hitter?
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 7:32 PM EDT
- hill55
- Posts: 7699
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Okay. Put it this way. Would you , as the Sox G.M. , make that trade? I know that I would not.
Posted by dgalehouse
As the Red Sox general manager, I would not make that trade.
As the Yankee general manager, I would not make the trade.
Not enough to be gained either way.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:20 PM EDT
- soxmeister
- Posts: 1281
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Els just hit his 11th HR ....
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:25 PM EDT
- jimdavis
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Who is the Yankee leadoff hitter?
Posted by Camelwalk
Sometimes Jeter, sometimes Gardy. Gardy projects as a leadooff going forward based on what I can see. He hits 9th some just like Ellsbury did when he struggled. What's your point?
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:25 PM EDT
Ellsbury > Gardner. It's not even close so comparing the two is meaningless.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:27 PM EDT
- Camelwalk
- Posts: 1371
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
Ellsbury /> Gardner. It's not even close so comparing the two is meaningless.
Posted by SoxPatsCelts1988
Yeah considering the don't even play the same position and Gardner isn't a leadoff hitter.....two different players.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:30 PM EDT
In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Yeah considering the don't even play the same position and Gardner isn't a leadoff hitter.....two different players.
Posted by Camelwalk
That and Ellsbury is just far better.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:36 PM EDT
- Camelwalk
- Posts: 1371
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : That and Ellsbury is just far better.
Posted by SoxPatsCelts1988
Granderson would be a more applicable comparison.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:41 PM EDT
- jimdavis
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Granderson would be a more applicable comparison.
Posted by Camelwalk
OK. Compare them if you wish. Ellsbury is better than him, too. CG has 25 dingers which are great. He has more rbi because he hits in the middle of the order. Ellsbury is leading in ba and sb. Give me Ells any day.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:43 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
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Preposterous! Gardner over Jake hands down
Hall over Lowrie.
Cam/Kalish over Crawford.
Idiots!!!
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:45 PM EDT
- Camelwalk
- Posts: 1371
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : OK. Compare them if you wish. Ellsbury is better than him, too. CG has 25 dingers which are great. He has more rbi because he hits in the middle of the order. Ellsbury is leading in ba and sb. Give me Ells any day.
Posted by jimdavis
I think the two are a wash.....Ellsbury is younger though which is a +
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 9:49 PM EDT
- jimdavis
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : I think the two are a wash.....Ellsbury is younger though which is a +
Posted by Camelwalk
This is at least a reasonable position. I have no problem with that thought.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 10:08 PM EDT
- dgalehouse
- Posts: 9796
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These Yankee fans are nothing, if not stubborn.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 10:53 PM EDT
- Yaz82
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
Preposterous! Gardner over Jake hands down Hall over Lowrie. Cam/Kalish over Crawford. Idiots!!!
Posted by harness
I often wonder why there is no life guard in the gene pool !
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 11:36 PM EDT
In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Ellsbury vs Gardner : Ells has become a very good hitter but he still needs to use the opposite field more in my opinion. Without Jacoby and Papi's contribution this season we may have been struggling to stay close.
Posted by craze4sox
No comparison. Gardner is kind of a spaz. He get badly gunned down attempting to steal, and is often even picked off. He looks out of control when he doesn't agree with a strike call. He talks to himself too which is rather weird. Lol.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/7/2011 11:44 PM EDT
- hill55
- Posts: 7699
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In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : I think the two are a wash.....Ellsbury is younger though which is a +
Posted by Camelwalk
Jacoby Ellsbury is 18
days younger than Brett Gardner (who remains under his team's control for one year longer than Ellsbury remains under his team's control).
This post has been removed.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/8/2011 2:55 AM EDT
In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
Ellsbury is 15th in OF OPS for 2011. He has 11 homers for the first time in his career. He's getting thrown out on steal attempts at around a 25% rate. So far, the only thing in 2011 he has done that is noteworthy is he's having a career year in OBP, through July 7. Thy hysteria on this fan favorite started in 2007 in early fall. It died down because he wasn't impressive in 2008, improved but not more than a supporting role player in 2009, and tanked the 2010 season and indicted Red Sox management. Now that he's having a career year in OBP and homers (11 to date), his weak season v. LHP and increased caught stealing data is being ignored. The gushing giddy fans are back at it talking about "we are seeing a superstar emerge before our very eyes". No, we are seeing a player who isn't good enough defensively to be a long career everyday CF starter, nor does he have the plate talent to transition to the last half of his career as a corner OF everyday player. When the smoke clears and the hysteria fades for this groupie fan favorite, the career averages and defensive body of work will reveal a player who was perceived as Ricky Henderson or Mantle, but who was grossy inferior to Marquis Grissom. If Theo has any sense at all, he'd be working the phones to try and get Kemp and find Ellsbury a home closer to Scott Boras and API.
Posted by billbyboy
What part of "ALL STAR" do you not understand, voted in by the players? Do you know more than Ellbury's peers? I'm pretty sure thats a No softy.
You say he is weak against LH pitching and yet historically that has been a strength for him. Again your position is COMPLETELY GROUNDLESS. Look up his career splits but get a hankie first.
You say he can't play defense and if fact he has a PLUS 15.8 this year in CF, as compared to Gardner who is a LF, optimized with a lot of speed in an expansive LF. You say Ellsbury can't even continue in baseball as a CF and yet he has a career 8.00 UZR/150 and he is trending UP!
This is truly child's play. This pitiful argument from the guy who welcomed me here by calling me a moron on day one. Truly pitiful Softy. One could say even hopelessly pathetic at this point.
This post has been removed.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/8/2011 7:38 AM EDT
- jimdavis
- Posts: 6522
- First: 4/4/2013
- Last: 5/25/2013
In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
Ellsbury is 15th in OF OPS for 2011. He has 11 homers for the first time in his career. He's getting thrown out on steal attempts at around a 25% rate. So far, the only thing in 2011 he has done that is noteworthy is he's having a career year in OBP, through July 7. Thy hysteria on this fan favorite started in 2007 in early fall. It died down because he wasn't impressive in 2008, improved but not more than a supporting role player in 2009, and tanked the 2010 season and indicted Red Sox management. Now that he's having a career year in OBP and homers (11 to date), his weak season v. LHP and increased caught stealing data is being ignored. The gushing giddy fans are back at it talking about "we are seeing a superstar emerge before our very eyes". No, we are seeing a player who isn't good enough defensively to be a long career everyday CF starter, nor does he have the plate talent to transition to the last half of his career as a corner OF everyday player. When the smoke clears and the hysteria fades for this groupie fan favorite, the career averages and defensive body of work will reveal a player who was perceived as Ricky Henderson or Mantle, but who was grossy inferior to Marquis Grissom. If Theo has any sense at all, he'd be working the phones to try and get Kemp and find Ellsbury a home closer to Scott Boras and API.
Posted by billbyboy
This is a bunch of nonsense. Ellsbury has been thrown out more than we would like but the steals are the steals. As goes Ells, so goes the Sox. If you think Gardy is as good a baserunner, you are in dreamland. Ask any objective Yankee fan. Ells was derailed because of injured ribs, not tanking a season. If you want to bash, that's fine, just be kinda fair about it.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/8/2011 9:34 AM EDT
- DCSoxFan13
- Posts: 83
- First: 12/26/2009
- Last: 9/7/2011
Softy, just so we are clear for future threads, you just said "Trending is meaningless, career averages are career averages." So, I guess that means Ellsbury's .294 career average against lefties is the relevant stat and not his .250s average in the first half of this year that you continue to harp on? I'm just making a point about cherry picking.
I rarely post, but I do try and read the forums every day over my morning coffee (this is the point where several posters will joke about the fact that I only have six posts and tell me to crawl back in my hole). I used to look forward to Softy's baseball posts because I thought they were entertaining, well thought out, and while I didn't always agree, I could usually appreciate his position and sometimes I learned something and Softy sent me scrambling to do some research. Now Softy has truly become the king of cherry picking, moving the goalposts (sorry, I'm stealing another's line here), and his posts border on obsessive.
As for Ellsbury, I'm not calling him a superstar by any means (I actually like the Marquis Grissom comparison...so there is hope for Softy yet). I think he is a good, albeit flawed player who is having an All Star caliber season.
And now I will crawl back into my hole.
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/8/2011 9:41 AM EDT
While we are at it, why not start comparing a LF to a 2nd baseman, a 3rd baseman to a SS, etc. They guys don't play the same position, what's the point?
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner
posted at 7/8/2011 9:41 AM EDT
In Response to
Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : OK. Compare them if you wish. Ellsbury is better than him, too. CG has 25 dingers which are great. He has more rbi because he hits in the middle of the order. Ellsbury is leading in ba and sb. Give me Ells any day.
Posted by jimdavis
Who has the higher WAR?
