Ellsbury vs Gardner

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PapiFan. Show PapiFan's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    One thing that's been left out of this analysis is baserunning...Gardner and Ellsbury have amazing speed and baserunning physical skills, but at this point Gardner has proven to be a boneheaded basestealer, which is a shame. Like with the issues Ellsbury has had with jumps and routes, though, it's an issue that can be fixed. Note to those of you who have compared the two defensively: Ellsbury has played some LF, and has performed quite well there, so it's safe to say that both are similar in terms of fielding (fast, rangy, mediocre arms), with Gardner getting the edge in terms of polish with his jumps and routes. I have little doubt that Gardner would be fine in CF (though not as crazy good as he's been in LF), and that Ellsbury would be excellent in LF (though not as good as Gardner). The gaps is smaller than some have made it out to be, but it IS possible to compare these two in the field. To the guy who brought up Carlos Gonzalez...don't lump him with the rest of those excellent LFers you mentioned. Call me when he doesn't rely on Coors Field for his production. Magnificent talent, but he would still be a few years away if his home park weren't boosting his numbers. Oh, and for the love of God, don't trade Bryce Brentz as simply a piece in a deal! I've had pegged as the eventual long-term replacement for JD Drew in RF since the day we drafted Brentz, and he's showing that he could be a right-handed middle-of-the-order power hitter with enough defense to be worthwhile.
    Posted by redsoxu571


    Colorado uses a humidor.   While still a good hitters ballparks (moreso because of the vast outfield) pitchers now put sub 3 ERAs which never ever was remotely close before.  Look at Ulbado Jiminez and Jhoulys Chacin.  Cargo hit 336 and won a batting crown on top of 34 HR 117 RBI and 26 SB.  Granted the splits are a big thing, but if it was as easy as you make it out to be why has nobody put up comparable numbers in Colorado to what he did last year??  All of the Red Sox hitters also have much better numbers at home.  While Coors and Fenway are both good hitters parks, you discount a player's comfort zone in his home ballpark.  Just because Youkilis's is a 276 hitter on the road and a 309 hitter at home for his career, does not mean he is a 276 hitter if he went to another team.  Players adjust and get comfortable.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

     Before this yr, it was debatable who was better, especially after Ells' apparent physical and mental issues last yr. Now, it's no longer a debate; Ells is better.

    Well said NHS, I think this winter I would have bet on them being about equal in 2011.

    Fangraphs has Gardner as the 12th best OF in MLB...Cashman sure is glad Carl is not in NY.

    I am pleasantly surprised no old school poster hasn't claimed Manny is undervalued according to WAR. Maybe some paradigms are shifting, or maybe they are too busy working off today's hangover.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Matt Holiday Ryan Braun Carlos Gonzalez Josh Hamilton Just to name a few.  Gardner is 17th in OPS among LF's with at least 100 PA's (15th with a minimum 150 PA's).  Gardner's defense certainly pushes him past some of those 15, but by no means is he even arguably the best LF in MLB.
    Posted by JB-3


    I'm talking about Defense only. With the possible exception of Carlos Gonzalez, those other guys are a joke defensively in comparison.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Colorado uses a humidor.   While still a good hitters ballparks (moreso because of the vast outfield) pitchers now put sub 3 ERAs which never ever was remotely close before.  Look at Ulbado Jiminez and Jhoulys Chacin.  Cargo hit 336 and won a batting crown on top of 34 HR 117 RBI and 26 SB.  Granted the splits are a big thing, but if it was as easy as you make it out to be why has nobody put up comparable numbers in Colorado to what he did last year??  All of the Red Sox hitters also have much better numbers at home.  While Coors and Fenway are both good hitters parks, you discount a player's comfort zone in his home ballpark.  Just because Youkilis's is a 276 hitter on the road and a 309 hitter at home for his career, does not mean he is a 276 hitter if he went to another team.  Players adjust and get comfortable.
    Posted by PapiFan


    Thanks for saving me the work of posting this.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    NHS, I'll give you that Gardner is a superior defender, but it's not by a landslide. Ellsbury takes a lot of heat for bad routes to fly balls and his arm and I think it is mostly unwarranted. He's a solid defender (7.5/10) and I would rate Gardner as a 9/10. Certainly Gardner's defense is not so superior to Ellsbury's that you could consider him the better player. Ellsbury has answered his critics this season and in fact has been on record as saying that the one thing he wanted to prove this year is that he was able to play everyday through injuries and produce. He has done that and I think that's case closed. Ellsbury and Gardner are more similar players than Ellsbury and Granderson, but I'm up for that debate, too.
    Posted by TitleTown11


    I was only talking about defense; and agreed, it's not by a landslide. Ellsbury is far better than some detractors think (Like Softy). As`far as your scale is concerned, I would give Yaz a 10 (In LF).
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : !) Disagree here; Gardner has a better arm and is a arguably the best LFer in MLB, including Crawford. 
    Posted by nhsteven


    Certainly doesn't look like you were only talking about defense.....
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Certainly doesn't look like you were only talking about defense.....
    Posted by JB-3


    Well, then either you misunderstood, or I miscommunicated. Blame it on me if you want, I'm not in the mood to be baited for arguing, based on what's gone on here  the past few wks. Perhaps check tom-uks post above. I believe that acquits me rather well.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    One thing that's been left out of this analysis is baserunning...Gardner and Ellsbury have amazing speed and baserunning physical skills, but at this point Gardner has proven to be a boneheaded basestealer, which is a shame. Like with the issues Ellsbury has had with jumps and routes, though, it's an issue that can be fixed. Note to those of you who have compared the two defensively: Ellsbury has played some LF, and has performed quite well there, so it's safe to say that both are similar in terms of fielding (fast, rangy, mediocre arms), with Gardner getting the edge in terms of polish with his jumps and routes. I have little doubt that Gardner would be fine in CF (though not as crazy good as he's been in LF), and that Ellsbury would be excellent in LF (though not as good as Gardner). The gaps is smaller than some have made it out to be, but it IS possible to compare these two in the field. To the guy who brought up Carlos Gonzalez...don't lump him with the rest of those excellent LFers you mentioned. Call me when he doesn't rely on Coors Field for his production. Magnificent talent, but he would still be a few years away if his home park weren't boosting his numbers. Oh, and for the love of God, don't trade Bryce Brentz as simply a piece in a deal! I've had pegged as the eventual long-term replacement for JD Drew in RF since the day we drafted Brentz, and he's showing that he could be a right-handed middle-of-the-order power hitter with enough defense to be worthwhile.
    Posted by redsoxu571


    As always, excellent.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Colorado uses a humidor.   While still a good hitters ballparks (moreso because of the vast outfield) pitchers now put sub 3 ERAs which never ever was remotely close before.  Look at Ulbado Jiminez and Jhoulys Chacin.  Cargo hit 336 and won a batting crown on top of 34 HR 117 RBI and 26 SB.  Granted the splits are a big thing, but if it was as easy as you make it out to be why has nobody put up comparable numbers in Colorado to what he did last year??  All of the Red Sox hitters also have much better numbers at home.  While Coors and Fenway are both good hitters parks, you discount a player's comfort zone in his home ballpark.  Just because Youkilis's is a 276 hitter on the road and a 309 hitter at home for his career, does not mean he is a 276 hitter if he went to another team.  Players adjust and get comfortable.
    Posted by PapiFan


    Perhaps, but humidor or not, I believe Coors reverted back to a hitter's haven in 2010.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from canetime. Show canetime's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    We could be watching the best season by a Sox OF in a decade maybe two! Just as we aren't watching an elite MLB SS in Jed Lowrie, we aren't watching the best season by a Sox OF in a decade maybe two. v. LHP   BA .252  OBP .329  HR 1 Tom, you are a very exciteable fellow. Gardner doesn't receive the hype, but he's a better overall baseball player. Higher career OBP and far superior defender more than offset the career SLG difference. Neither player will ever be a career OF slugging impact player. Both players are always going to be less than long career star OF'ers, and will play a significant percentage of seasons as platoon players. Gardner has the defensive talent to stick longer than Ellsbury as a career CF'er, which, if healthy, enable him to have a longer career as a starter. Neither player has the talent to play corner OF starter for any significant career years length.  If Theo is smart, he's not, he would be on the phone, right now, trying to get the Dodgers to trade Kemp for Ellsbury and 2 of Lowrie, Hassan, Middlebrooks, Brentz, and Weiland or Doubrant. Dodgers are toast, this year, and will not be able to extend or sign Kemp as a FA after 2012 season. Ellsbury would be theirs through 2013, and would enable them to save about 10 to 15 million through next year, plus improve pitching and young position player talent depth. Though they will never be able to pull it off, Kemp would cost around 18 to 20M for 2013, while Ellsbury will cost only 5 to 7. Ellsbury will be a much cheaper FA signing, as well, and allow the troubled Dodgers to transition trough what will be at least 2 or or more wilderness years, even with a cash rich new ownership. 
    Posted by billbyboy


    theo not smart but softy is-THE FOOL has spoken!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
     Before this yr, it was debatable who was better, especially after Ells' apparent physical and mental issues last yr. Now, it's no longer a debate; Ells is better. Well said NHS, I think this winter I would have bet on them being about equal in 2011. Fangraphs has Gardner as the 12th best OF in MLB...Cashman sure is glad Carl is not in NY. I am pleasantly surprised no old school poster hasn't claimed Manny is undervalued according to WAR. Maybe some paradigms are shifting, or maybe they are too busy working off today's hangover.
    Posted by tom-uk


    Manny is generally frowned upon here these days.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    This is not even arguable. Ellsbury by a mile. Put it this way: Would Cashman trade Gardner for Ellsbury? Ans. In a New York minute.   Would Theo make that deal?  No way in the world.  End of story.
     
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    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    based on what i've seen recently, gardner has no base running instincts. he may, in fact, be one of the worst base runners i've ever seen. i just don't think he's very bright.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from the_yazzer. Show the_yazzer's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    This is not even arguable. Ellsbury by a mile. Put it this way: Would Cashman trade Gardner for Ellsbury? Ans. In a New York minute.   Would Theo make that deal?  No way in the world.  End of story.
    Posted by dgalehouse



    don't ever underestimate the stupidity of theo blunder.
     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from PapiFan. Show PapiFan's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    Billbyboy,  Ellsbury is on pace for 19 HR and 53 SB.  If Ellsbury manages to increase his HR pace by a small amount and hits 20 and gets 50 stolen bases, he will be only the 12th player ever to accomplish that feat.  If he keeps pace, I don't know how anybody in their right mind would say a 20 HR 50 SB is not a star quality season.  For those interested here are the other 11 who had 20 HR 50SB seasons.  Some really talented players.

    Ricky Henderson (4 times)
    Eric Davis  (twice)
    Barry Bonds
    Hanley Ramirez
    Joe Morgan (three times)
    Ryne Sandberg
    Cesar Cedeno (three times)
    Brady Anderson
    Lou Brock
    Craig Biggio
    Eric Byrnes
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    Wrong! Gardner has another year of control, has a higher career OBP, and is a much better defender. While Ellsbury has a higher career slugging, neither player is going to be an impact career player on slugging. The Yankees would not make that trade unless they are stupid. And the guy claiming Ellsbury is a rising superstar, put down your crack pipe. He's weak v. LHP during what is, so far, a career high season that has people going off the deep end. Get a grip, and Theo needs to trade him before it's too late, for a solid young real superstar RH OF'er like Kemp.
    Posted by billbyboy


    Yes, Gardner does have an extra year of team control, but the OBP comparison is quickly losing power.  Gardner's career OBP is now just .007 higher than Ells'.  

    As you pointed out, Ells has not been handling LHP all that well even this season.  However, Ells ranks 6th out of 15 in OPS vs LHP for CF's with at least 50 PA's this season.  That isn't bad, although it may speak more to the general offensive weakness around MLB at the CF position.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from DCSoxFan13. Show DCSoxFan13's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    Since some folks continue to trot out Ellsbury's struggles vs. lefties, let's compare Ellsbury and Gardner vs. lefties:

    2011
    Ellsbury:  AVG - 252; OBP - 328; SLG - 379; OPS - 706
    Gardner:  AVG - 233; OBP - 353; SLG - 279; OPS - 632

    Career
    Ellsbury:  AVG - 296; OBP - 353; SLG - 390; OPS - 742
    Gardner:  AVG - 245; OBP - 352; SLG - 330; OPS - 681

    Obviously success against lefties is just a small part of the discussion, but with the exception of OBP this year (which is mitigated by Gardner's woeful 279 SLG %), Ellsbury appears to handle lefties better.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    This is not even arguable. Ellsbury by a mile. Put it this way: Would Cashman trade Gardner for Ellsbury? Ans. In a New York minute.   Would Theo make that deal?  No way in the world.  End of story.
    Posted by dgalehouse

    Brett Gardner's extra year of control brings the trade within the realm of plausibility. Jacoby Ellsbury has outperformed Gardner so far this season, although Gardner has been no slouch. For their careers, Gardner has been valued at 12.8 WAR* in 384 games while Ellsbury has been valued at 12.3 WAR in 434 games:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9927&position=OF

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4727&position=OF

    * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from The---Babe---. Show The---Babe---'s posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    Again....apples and oranges....why not compare LF's to LF's and CF's to CF's?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner : Brett Gardner's extra year of control brings the trade within the realm of plausibility. Jacoby Ellsbury has outperformed Gardner so far this season, although Gardner has been no slouch. For their careers, Gardner has been valued at 12.8 WAR* in 384 games while Ellsbury has been valued at 12.3 WAR in 434 games: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=9927&position=OF http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4727&position=OF * Wins Above Replacement as reported at FanGraphs
    Posted by hill55

    Still say that Cashman would make that trade in one minute. Theo would not. That is all you need to know.  Career stats for players that are still improving do not mean so much.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    Again....apples and oranges....why not compare LF's to LF's and CF's to CF's?
    Posted by The---Babe---

    I think it is because Ellsbury and Gardner are the same type of player and have been compared , in the past. Granderson has emerged as a legitimate power hitter. Actually, Gardner could play center and Granderson could play left, just as well. Just the manager's decision.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from heobrien. Show heobrien's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    "Funny how (Sk)ankee fans comment on a Red sox message board."

    I thought it was the Globes Message board? 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

     Ellsbury is having a terrific year and is going to the All Star Game. While I'd like to see him rip some line drives to left occasionally and lay down a decent bunt once in awhile, I'm pleasantly surprised at the power-surge this year. As to the folks who claim he takes bad routes to balls in the outfield, all I know is that he seems to get to and catch most of them. I've seen him make catches going into the triangle and bouncing off the wall in left center. I suspect that this "bad routes" business was made up by some Ellsbury hater and is taken as gospel by others wanting to find fault with him. It's kind of like when he was branded as "soft" last years when the Sox medical staff misdiagnosed his broken ribs. To my mind he plays hard and is steadily improving. His best years appear to be ahead of him and all this talk of trading him is really utter foolishness!
     As for Gardner, he plays for the Yankees, so as long as they are losing I'm happy. What he does to contribute to that probably belongs on a Yankee site. He doesn't interest me!   
     
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    Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner

    In Response to Re: Ellsbury vs Gardner:
    Again....apples and oranges....why not compare LF's to LF's and CF's to CF's?
    Posted by The---Babe---


    I think they are comparing leadoff hitters to leadoff hitters.  What is apples and oranges about that?  This is the only way to compare them. Comparing Granderson to Ells makes no sense because they are very different offensive players.  I guess I don't get what the big deal is.  Ellsbury is having a very good year and so is Granderson.  Curtis is a very good ballplayer.  What now?
     
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