ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Moon,

    I think we're both making compelling arguments. however you appear to be stuck in the same mind set of hill55. while we can agree to disagree on the definition of consistency...I am not trying to arrive at nor argue which is the better player. 

    My point is that using monthly splits to determine consistency is totally arbitrary.

    Ellsbury is a gold glove centerfielder and his stats place him among the best leadoff hitters the game. 

    Gold Glove Awards are near meaningless to me (see my Jeter rants). However, Ellsbury is a much better fielder than Upton.

    Upton is a below average right fielder who is a middle of the pack #3 hitter. Who if he doesn't improve would be best suited to hit 5th...not too many five hole guys making 20M. What no one can project in the next two or three years is that either player will improve or regress.

    You know as well as I do that FA contracts are signed as much for potential as actual past performance. I'd certainly think that if Victorino gets $13M x 3, Upton would get close to $20M x 3 if he was a FA at age 25/26.

    Also, we are not sure Ellsbury will be our leadoff hitter in 2013, or where Upton would bat here in Boston. I know you do not want to compare apples to oranges, but I'd rather have Upton at leadoff than Ellsbury. I'd rather have Upton batting 3rd, 4th or 5th over jacoby as well...

    2009-2012:

    Upton  .286/.362/.485/.847

    Ellsbury .298/.351/.453/.804

    Which is the more valuable to their respective teams cleary that would be the younger player under the teams control. However if you're looking for a lead off hitter to play center Ellsbury would then be more valuable....if you're looking for a corner outfielder that projects to be an above average 5 hole hitter....Upton's your man....

    [/QUOTE]


    Now that we have Victorino, Upton would be vastly more valuable to the Sox not only for 2013, but for the the following 2 years as well.

    Victorino in CF and Upton in RF is better than Ellsbury (CF) and Victorino (RF), and the 2014 & 2015 seasons tip the balance heavily to one side.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Moon,

    I think we're both making compelling arguments. however you appear to be stuck in the same mind set of hill55. while we can agree to disagree on the definition of consistency...I am not trying to arrive at nor argue which is the better player. 

    My point is that using monthly splits to determine consistency is totally arbitrary.

    Ellsbury is a gold glove centerfielder and his stats place him among the best leadoff hitters the game. 

    Gold Glove Awards are near meaningless to me (see my Jeter rants). However, Ellsbury is a much better fielder than Upton.

    Upton is a below average right fielder who is a middle of the pack #3 hitter. Who if he doesn't improve would be best suited to hit 5th...not too many five hole guys making 20M. What no one can project in the next two or three years is that either player will improve or regress.

    You know as well as I do that FA contracts are signed as much for potential as actual past performance. I'd certainly think that if Victorino gets $13M x 3, Upton would get close to $20M x 3 if he was a FA at age 25/26.

    Also, we are not sure Ellsbury will be our leadoff hitter in 2013, or where Upton would bat here in Boston. I know you do not want to compare apples to oranges, but I'd rather have Upton at leadoff than Ellsbury. I'd rather have Upton batting 3rd, 4th or 5th over jacoby as well...

    2009-2012:

    Upton  .286/.362/.485/.847

    Ellsbury .298/.351/.453/.804

    Which is the more valuable to their respective teams cleary that would be the younger player under the teams control. However if you're looking for a lead off hitter to play center Ellsbury would then be more valuable....if you're looking for a corner outfielder that projects to be an above average 5 hole hitter....Upton's your man....

    [/QUOTE]


    Now that we have Victorino, Upton would be vastly more valuable to the Sox not only for 2013, but for the the following 2 years as well.

    Victorino in CF and Upton in RF is better than Ellsbury (CF) and Victorino (RF), and the 2014 & 2015 seasons tip the balance heavily to one side.

    [/QUOTE]

    On this we can agree to agree...I too would prefer an outfield with Upton, however in my ideal world he'd play left. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    ESPN's Buster Olney reports that the Diamondbacks are "very much open" to discussing a trade of Justin Upton:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/286936610367471617

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/286936839007395841

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/286937666153484289

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Moon,

    I think we're both making compelling arguments. however you appear to be stuck in the same mind set of hill55. while we can agree to disagree on the definition of consistency...I am not trying to arrive at nor argue which is the better player. 

    My point is that using monthly splits to determine consistency is totally arbitrary.

    Ellsbury is a gold glove centerfielder and his stats place him among the best leadoff hitters the game. 

    Gold Glove Awards are near meaningless to me (see my Jeter rants). However, Ellsbury is a much better fielder than Upton.

    Upton is a below average right fielder who is a middle of the pack #3 hitter. Who if he doesn't improve would be best suited to hit 5th...not too many five hole guys making 20M. What no one can project in the next two or three years is that either player will improve or regress.

    You know as well as I do that FA contracts are signed as much for potential as actual past performance. I'd certainly think that if Victorino gets $13M x 3, Upton would get close to $20M x 3 if he was a FA at age 25/26.

    Also, we are not sure Ellsbury will be our leadoff hitter in 2013, or where Upton would bat here in Boston. I know you do not want to compare apples to oranges, but I'd rather have Upton at leadoff than Ellsbury. I'd rather have Upton batting 3rd, 4th or 5th over jacoby as well...

    2009-2012:

    Upton  .286/.362/.485/.847

    Ellsbury .298/.351/.453/.804

    Which is the more valuable to their respective teams cleary that would be the younger player under the teams control. However if you're looking for a lead off hitter to play center Ellsbury would then be more valuable....if you're looking for a corner outfielder that projects to be an above average 5 hole hitter....Upton's your man....

    [/QUOTE]


    Now that we have Victorino, Upton would be vastly more valuable to the Sox not only for 2013, but for the the following 2 years as well.

    Victorino in CF and Upton in RF is better than Ellsbury (CF) and Victorino (RF), and the 2014 & 2015 seasons tip the balance heavily to one side.

    [/QUOTE]

    On this we can agree to agree...I too would prefer an outfield with Upton, however in my ideal world he'd play left. 

    [/QUOTE]

    An OF of Upton in LF, Ellsbury in CF, and Victorino in RF is not too bad at all. It kind of makes Johny Gomez an expensive FT bench player.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Columnist Jim Bowden of ESPN has proposed a Red Sox trade of Xander Bogaerts, Matt Barnes and Brandon Jacobs to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton, according to MLB Trade Rumors:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/red-sox-notes-napoli-upton-laroche.html

    I'm not sure that's what softlaw1 anticipated.

    [/QUOTE]


    I wouldn't package Barnes for anything less than a F. Hernandez type starter, we need good young pitching.  Uptons defense is average and I really don't see swapping leagues helping his offensive stats much at any age.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Columnist Jim Bowden of ESPN has proposed a Red Sox trade of Xander Bogaerts, Matt Barnes and Brandon Jacobs to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton, according to MLB Trade Rumors:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/red-sox-notes-napoli-upton-laroche.html

    I'm not sure that's what softlaw1 anticipated.

    [/QUOTE]


    I wouldn't package Barnes for anything less than a F. Hernandez type starter, we need good young pitching and Upton can be had for less.  His defense is average and I really don't see swapping leagues helping his offensive stats much at any age.

    [/QUOTE]

    He played a lot of games in LAD, SD, and SF. 

    He is entering his prime over the next 3 years of control.

    There aren't many other players of this quality out there for the taking.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Columnist Jim Bowden of ESPN has proposed a Red Sox trade of Xander Bogaerts, Matt Barnes and Brandon Jacobs to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton, according to MLB Trade Rumors:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/red-sox-notes-napoli-upton-laroche.html

    I'm not sure that's what softlaw1 anticipated.

    [/QUOTE]


    I wouldn't package Barnes for anything less than a F. Hernandez type starter, we need good young pitching and Upton can be had for less.  His defense is average and I really don't see swapping leagues helping his offensive stats much at any age.

    [/QUOTE]

    He played a lot of games in LAD, SD, and SF. 

    He is entering his prime over the next 3 years of control.

    There aren't many other players of this quality out there for the taking.

    [/QUOTE]

    I just hate to see us give up our best young arm for a bat and glove that may be less productive than a healthy Ells.  I would ride out Jacoby this season and offer another young pitcher in an Upton package.

     

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    He played a lot of games in LAD, SD, and SF. 

    [/QUOTE]


     

    So did SS Stephen Drew.

     

    Road OPS with Diamondbacks.......

    Stephen Drew---.731

    Justin Upton---.731

     

    We got Drew for free and he is a SS.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Columnist Jim Bowden of ESPN has proposed a Red Sox trade of Xander Bogaerts, Matt Barnes and Brandon Jacobs to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton, according to MLB Trade Rumors:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/red-sox-notes-napoli-upton-laroche.html

    I'm not sure that's what softlaw1 anticipated.

    [/QUOTE]


    I wouldn't package Barnes for anything less than a F. Hernandez type starter, we need good young pitching.  Uptons defense is average and I really don't see swapping leagues helping his offensive stats much at any age.

    [/QUOTE]

    craze,

    I'd trade both Barnes and Bogharts or for that matter any combination of two or three of our top prospects in a package that landed us Upton. He'd be perfect fit in left and given the terms of his current deal the Sox would have a couple years to evaluate him and see if he does indeed become the impact player many think he can be...While both Barnes & Bogharts are highly touted, neither is a lock to become impact big leaguers...Upton today is a player that has already shown the ability to be productive big leaguer. given the state of our current roster Upton would be worth a roll of the dice....

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    The Rangers, Braves and Mariners reportedly have been the most aggressive in their pursuit of Justin Upton:

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/arizona-diamondbacks-OF-justin-upton-still-subject-of-trade-talks-mariners-rangers-braves-010313

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    He played a lot of games in LAD, SD, and SF. 

    [/QUOTE]


     

    So did SS Stephen Drew.

     

    Road OPS with Diamondbacks.......

    Stephen Drew---.731

    Justin Upton---.731

     

    We got Drew for free and he is a SS.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I don't see the Sox matching up here at all.  Middlebrooks, Boegarts & Barnes are all pretty much untouchable right now and I can't see any scenario where they would trade any of them in a package for a guy like Upton.  There are plenty of other teams that match up better, based on what it seems the D-Backs are looking for. 

     
  12. This post has been removed.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You also pointed out what a great "matchup" Crawford and the Red Sox were.

    Gomes, Ellspuff and Shane @ nearly 30 million is embarrassing.

    [/QUOTE]

    Nope, never liked the Crawford deal, but keep trying. It was a panic move when they lost out on Werth at the last minute.  Give up your Upton dream.  It's not happening.

     
  14. This post has been removed.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    He played a lot of games in LAD, SD, and SF. 

    [/QUOTE]


     

    So did SS Stephen Drew.

     

    Road OPS with Diamondbacks.......

    Stephen Drew---.731

    Justin Upton---.731

     

    We got Drew for free and he is a SS.

    [/QUOTE]

    1) He isn't "free" at $9.5M, but I guess you meant no prospects.

    2) I guess you can call him a SS, but I prefer one who can field well.

    3) Are you really trying to imply Drew is as a good an offensive player as Upton?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You also pointed out what a great "matchup" Crawford and the Red Sox were.

    Gomes, Ellspuff and Shane @ nearly 30 million is embarrassing.

    [/QUOTE]

    Nope, never liked the Crawford deal, but keep trying. It was a panic move when they lost out on Werth at the last minute.  Give up your Upton dream.  It's not happening.

    [/QUOTE]

    softy still assumes everyone here was for the CC signing.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rickerd2. Show rickerd2's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You also pointed out what a great "matchup" Crawford and the Red Sox were.

    Gomes, Ellspuff and Shane @ nearly 30 million is embarrassing.

    [/QUOTE]

    Nope, never liked the Crawford deal, but keep trying. It was a panic move when they lost out on Werth at the last minute.  Give up your Upton dream.  It's not happening.

    [/QUOTE]

    softy still assumes everyone here was for the CC signing.

    [/QUOTE]

    I was all for it, before I was against it.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to rickerd2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You also pointed out what a great "matchup" Crawford and the Red Sox were.

    Gomes, Ellspuff and Shane @ nearly 30 million is embarrassing.

    [/QUOTE]

    Nope, never liked the Crawford deal, but keep trying. It was a panic move when they lost out on Werth at the last minute.  Give up your Upton dream.  It's not happening.

    [/QUOTE]

    softy still assumes everyone here was for the CC signing.

    [/QUOTE]

    I was all for it, before I was against it.

    [/QUOTE]

    I never once said we should sign CC. I said I liked Werth better than CC, but said I'd give $12M a year x 4 years, so I wasn't close to saying I wanted him either.

    The day we signed CC, I did an in depth breakdown of his numbers and called him a "glorified platoon player" who should be "benched vs LHPs" and bat no higher than 6th vs RHPs. (I recommended 9th, while softy recommended leadoff FT.) I said his contract would "cripple us for 7 years".

    After saying all of this, and repeating it for years, softy still claims I was for the CC signing.

    Softy was also against the Dodger trade and said we should have waited to trade CC until after 2013 when his value would be higher. He said there was "no way any team would take CC and his deal."

    Now, he acts all high and mighty, when everyone here knows him for clown he is.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Columnist Jim Bowden of ESPN has proposed a Red Sox trade of Xander Bogaerts, Matt Barnes and Brandon Jacobs to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton, according to MLB Trade Rumors:

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/red-sox-notes-napoli-upton-laroche.html

    I'm not sure that's what softlaw1 anticipated.

    [/QUOTE]


    I wouldn't package Barnes for anything less than a F. Hernandez type starter, we need good young pitching.  Uptons defense is average and I really don't see swapping leagues helping his offensive stats much at any age.

    [/QUOTE]


    Would you have traded for Kemp?

     

    Through his age 24 season, Matt Kemp hit .299 / .346 / .480 (.826) with 61HRs and an OPS+ of 116 in 1,801 plate appearances.

     

    Through his age 24 season, Justin Upton has hit .275 / .357 / .475 (.832) with 108 HRs and an OPS+ of 117 in 2,663 plate appearances.

     

    I would say they are comparable at the same ages...

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    3) Are you really trying to imply Drew is as a good an offensive player as Upton?

    [/QUOTE]


     

    No.

     

    But they are closer then most think as those numbers indicate. And effectively comparing him to a SS for a 6 year period that people are not drooling over might wake people up to my next point. That Upton is over rated. Especially with the bat. That Upton is a bit of a home park creation. Last year for example he slugged .344 on the road. That ranked him 341st last year among players with 100 PA's. And his road ISO last year would have ranked him 378th overall, tied with such sluggers as Andrus, Barmes, and Shumaker. Imagine those guys hitting cleanup. And pointing out some of his division's park's is kind of a weak defense, which you have mentioned before. And as I showed before his team mates have survived on the road, so why does he struggle? Also have concerns about his K rates. Pitch taking lately. Crazy high BABIP rates. Consistency. Attitude. And Arizona's constant desire to trade him. Put him in Seattle and give him some normal luck and lets see what he does. Bet its between disapointing and down right ugly. I don't like the idea of adding Upton generally. He isn't controlled for that long or that cheaply. Don't think he fits what the team is trying to do. Don't think we should trade top prospects for him. Don't think we should be trading Bogaerts. Period......... Takes breath.

     

    Otherwise I think he is OK and has potential. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    I don't like the idea of adding Upton generally. He isn't controlled for that long or that cheaply. Don't think he fits what the team is trying to do. Don't think we should trade top prospects for him. Don't think we should be trading Bogaerts. Period......... Takes breath.

    Otherwise I think he is OK and has potential. 

    Bmav,

    I don't completely disagree with any of your above comments. Although 3 years does give the aquiring team time to see what he becomes as he enters his prime. For moneys that are still reasonable given his production. Home-road splits aside. I remember the same arguement being had about Matt Holiday's Coor's Field numbers" by those that opposed his signing. A player in hindsight, who'd look good in a Sox uniform today.

    Upton's current production places him among the best 5 hole hitters in the game and when compared to his contemporaries he's middle of the pack when compared to the most productive #3 & #4 hole hitters...His upside is what piques my interest. As for Boegharts...if you can with certainty predict that he will realize his potential and continue to progress as he rises through the differing levels of competition and arrives at Fenway an impact player that can replace the 25 homer-90 Rbi 800ish OPS of Upton then I would concur they shouldn't trade him. That's what makes trading prospects a gamble and it's also the risk the aquiring team has to weigh...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    Some posters were upset we didn't re-sign Cody Ross. His splits (home and away as well as vs LHPs/RHPs) have been even more extreme than Upton's.

     
  23. This post has been removed.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Some posters were upset we didn't re-sign Cody Ross. His splits (home and away as well as vs LHPs/RHPs) have been even more extreme than Upton's.

    [/QUOTE]


    They were not me. I wasn't willing to go higher then 2-7 for Ross. And when we signed Gomes, the best thing about it was I felt that we would not over spend on Ross. And got somebody just  as good.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: ESPN proposes Sox trade for JUpton

    If we have to empty our elite prospects, I would rather go for Stanton rather than J Upton.  

     
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