Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Whatever qualities Varitek may or may not have , it is clear that he does not hit well , and cannot throw out any base stealers. There have to be better options.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...


    Whatever qualities Varitek may or may not have , it is clear that he does not hit well... There have to be better options.

    Wrong on at least three levels:

    1) There are better options, but at what cost? VTek will likely cost about $1M. He knows our staff and has proven he gets the most out of it.

    2) "Does not hit well" does not consider context. VTek's 2011 OPS was .723.
      * 3 MLB teams had a team catcher OPS of under .570!
      * 7 MLB teams had a team catcher OPS of under .643!
      * 16 team's catcher OPS was under .702!
      * 18 teams, including the Yanks, had a team catcher OPS below Tek's!


    Blasting away at VTek's offense without looking at his numbers in the context of the state of MLB catchers these days has been repeated so often on this site. If you can look objectively at the subject, you will understand that VTek compares very well with about half of MLB starting catchers.

     STARTING CATCHERS!

    As hard as it is to find good hitting catchers in MLB, expecting your back-up catcher to be as good as half the starting catchers in MLB seems a bit unrealistic, right? Well, it seems many here do.
    In 2011, VTek placed...
    Slg% 14th  (.423)
    OBP   24th  (.300)
    OPS   17th  (.723)
    When you compare VTek's numbers to overall MLB catcher team numbers, his numbers would place:
    Slg%   8th
    OBP   21st
    OPS   13
    th
    His numbers are basically those of an average MLB catcher. And, he’s our back-up.

    Our BACK-UP!

    3) The Sox had the 10th best catcher OPS in MLB at .731, just .013 from 6th place. We have one of the best young catchers (Lavarnway) knocking at the door. We have 2+ holes at starting pitching, 2+ holes in the pen, a big hole at DH, a hole at SS, and a need to improve in RF, yet some posters seem to think catcher offense and catcher arm strength are our "top priority".

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from WesternOregon. Show WesternOregon's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone:
    [QUOTE]Whatever qualities Varitek may or may not have , it is clear that he does not hit well... There have to be better options. Wrong on at least three levels: 1) There are better options, but at what cost? VTek will likely cost about $1M. He knows our staff and has proven he gets the most out of it. 2) "Does not hit well" does not consider context. VTek's 2011 OPS was .723.   * 3 MLB teams had a team catcher OPS of under .570!   * 7 MLB teams had a team catcher OPS of under .643!   * 16 team's catcher OPS was under .702!   * 18 teams, including the Yanks, had a team catcher OPS below Tek's! Blasting away at VTek's offense without looking at his numbers in the context of the state of MLB catchers these days has been repeated so often on this site. If you can look objectively at the subject, you will understand that VTek compares very well with about half of MLB starting catchers.   STARTING CATCHERS ! As hard as it is to find good hitting catchers in MLB, expecting your back-up catcher to be as good as half the starting catchers in MLB seems a bit unrealistic, right? Well, it seems many here do. In 2011, VTek placed... Slg% 14 th   (.423) OBP   24 th   (.300) OPS    17 th   (.723) When you compare VTek's numbers to overall MLB catcher team numbers, his numbers would place: Slg%    8th OBP     21st OPS    13 th His numbers are basically those of an average MLB catcher. And, he’s our back-up. Our BACK-UP! 3) The Sox had the 10th best catcher OPS in MLB at .731, just .013 from 6th place. We have one of the best young catchers (Lavarnway) knocking at the door. We have 2+ holes at starting pitching, 2+ holes in the pen, a big hole at DH, a hole at SS, and a need to improve in RF, yet some posters seem to think catcher offense and catcher arm strength are our "top priority".
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Beat that dead horse some more...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    I thought I saw the horse twitch.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone : Beat that dead horse some more...
    Posted by WesternOregon[/QUOTE]

    It amazes me how fans want to use stats when they want to use them, and when they don't want to use them they pretend their eyes are better than the proven numbers.  My suggestion:  Pick one - numbers or eyes - and go with it for all players.   

    Much of this whole "Scrap 'tek" sentiment is the result of ONE poster saying the same thing over and over and then repeating himself within his own threads to make it look like lots of people agree with him.  Then the sheep follow in lockstep.

    Thanks, Moon.  I know you're doing what you can, but as my mom used to say, "There are none so deaf as those who don't want to hear".   
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Most don't ever even respond to the "hitting in the context of the catching position" point. They look at VTek's horrible BA and instantly assume he is terrible. Then they look at CS% and nothing more can get throught their already made up minds.

    I'll take the 16th best offensive catcher as my back-up at about $1M. And, to these guys, hitting is his weakest area!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone:
    [QUOTE]I thought I saw the horse twitch.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    LOL...Good one, Moon.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Needless to say, Hernandez is solid and would only cost 3 to 4M. Salty is backup material. No reason to spend 1M or more on VAritek again. The guy is washed up and unable to even finish any of the last 2 seasons as a backup catcher, much less a starter.

    A backup catcher that is capable is able to finish a season. Varitek is toast, and I can't imagine the new GM not signing Hernandez and making Salty the backup competing with Lavarnway as the 2013 or 2014 long term future starting catcher.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Note: A lot of posters voted and do no want Varitek back. Hardly the opinion of one poster. Only Moonslow and Harnazz and a few other posters can't put down the delusional Varitek crack pipe.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone : LOL...Good one, Moon.
    Posted by ampoule[/QUOTE]

    Just watch all the side-stepping and goalpost-moving when VTek signs somewhere. The horse-flogging will begin anew.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    When you compare VTek's numbers to overall MLB team catcher numbers, his numbers would place him:

    Slg%   8th

    OBP   21st

    OPS   13
    th

    His numbers are basically those of an average or even above average MLB catcher.

    He would be our back-up at about $1M. 

    There are two things the Sox might do this winter:

    1) Decide to go with Salty/Lava for 2012.

    2) Get a cheap back-up catcher "just in case".

    We are not going to spend big on a catcher. We have about 6 to 8 more pressing needs that will be costly to address.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Softlaw the crafty litigator has now moved the focus of his attack on Varitek to his injuries the last two years. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone:
    [QUOTE]Softlaw the crafty litigator has now moved the focus of his attack on Varitek to his injuries the last two years. 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Little does it matter to the clown that VTek caught more innings than all but two MLB back-up catchers. He got hurt with 3 games to play and that makes him mush.

    Innings caught:

    Ramon Hernandez
    2011: 658
    2010: 732
    2009: 451

    Jason Varitek:
    2011: 575
    2010: 275
    2009: 924

    I'd love to have Ramon Hernandez on our team next year instead of VTek or Salty, but no matter how much a silly clown wants him here, we are not going to spend more than $1M to $1.5M on a back-up catcher. We have way bigger needs. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Ramon is good, but he is old too isn't he?  Go young.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Ramon is good, but he is old too isn't he?  Go young.

    He will turn 36 in May; curiously, the same age VTek was when softy started his dump Tek campaign. Go figure!

    Ramon has not caught over 91 games since 2008.

    His OPS by age:
    31  .714
    32  .714
    33  .699
    34  .792
    35  .788

    VTek's at those ages:
    31  .863
    32  .872
    33  .856
    34  .725 (injured)
    35  .787  (one point off from Ramon's 2011 season at age 35!)

    At 36, VTek hit .220/.313/.359/.672. Can we expect the same from Ramon? 
    Who knows, but I doubt Ramon will have a .740 OPS from ages 38-39.

    We are not going to trade to get a good young catcher. They are too expensive. We already have Salty at the age where catchers usually take root, and Lava, one of the best catching (DH) prospects in MLB today; we are not going to spend big at the catcher position. That is the main reason I have been advocating bringing back VTek. He will be a cheap one year back-up who already knows the system.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Hernandez would be the starter, dimwit. Salty and Lavarnway are minimum level costs.  

    I wanted Varitek kicked to the curb in 2010, at age 38. Stop the homey propaganda.

    Salty and Lavarnway are not starter material, with Salty and his hands of stone. Hernandez at age 35 produced has solid career catcher skillset and is a perfect one year contract option 2.

    A dimwit wants to worry about 2-3M on catcher position and bring back frat 40 year old catcher who is incapable of finishing a season evern as a 53 games a year backup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    What does Varitek rank in August and September, in his 53 game a year sample size!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Cherington not mentioning Varitek or Wakefield when talking to the media about wanting FA Papelbon and Ortiz back is a very good sign!

    Red Sox need a capable and fit catcher, and Hernandez has a .364 and .341 OBP in last two years (.330 career) and .792 and .788 OPS in last 2 years (.749 career). Unlike Varitek, he is capable of fielding the position and finishing the season.

    Anyone wanting Varitek back after MIA during critical last week of 2011 collapse and 2010 annual last month or two total zero auto-out even as a rested backup is not living in the real world!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Thought I'd take the clown off iggy for a bit, but I can see it's the same old story ad naseum...

    No response to the fact that VTek caught more innings than all but 2 MLB back-up catchers.

    No response to the fact that VTek's OPS was better than 21 MLB team catcher OPS in 2011.

    No response to the fact that pitchers do better with Vtek, except to call it "voodoo"... a decade long voodoo magic.

    Back to small sample size bashing. Now it's about VTek missing 3 games due to injury (of which he might have started 1). As to August-Sept 2011? He should check the facts before you spew more venom.

    August  to Sept 10th
    AB  50
    H    11
    2B    1
    3B    1
    HR    4
    RBI  11
     
    Project this over 600 ABs: 
    .220  52  143 (26 2B+3Bs)

    This from a back-up catcher.
    A back-up catcher with more innings caught than 27 other MLb back-up catchers.

    VTek ended the season horribly, no doubt, but to judge him over 1 for 16 ending is typical softy cherry-picking. 16 freakin' ABs!  Sixteen! (By the way, he did get 3 RBIs in thos last 16 ABs giving him 14 in Aug/Sept (his last 66 ABs).  That's about a 120+ RBI pace over a full season... that must be the reason we lost.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Same absurd drone response to on the shelf at end of 2010 and 2011. Same sample snipets. No response to a 40 year old catcher and why he is unable to finish a season as a backup, other than posting some backup IP averages and pretending that is an accurate measure when most of it is first half back-up duty for an unproven MLB starting catcher like Salty who truly has hans of stone.

    1 million for Varitek to take up a 25 man roster spot, because he was not a factor in collapse at end of season. Being on the shelf at year end just happened, and it was only for the last few days of the 2011 season. Bring him back. Give one of MLB best back-up catchers 1M because other teams will surely guarantee a MLB active roster spot and 1M.

    Does anyone pay any attention to this Epstein, Varitek and Wakefield lackey. Time to move on. InEpstein gave these bums FA contracts. If Cherington does it, and I doubt it (minor league contract max), Cherington is truly a clueless idiot.   
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone:
    [QUOTE]Softlaw the crafty litigator has now moved the focus of his attack on Varitek to his injuries the last two years. 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    I wish I had him as my divorce attorney a few years back.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Same absurd side-stepping of teh relevent facts. You accuse VTek of having little stamina, yet ignore the fact that he caught more innings than all but 2 back-up catchers. The facts just don't support your nonsense. VTek basically missed one game at the end of the season, and you make this the new centerpiece of your position. I think we can all see who the "clueless" one is.

    The team is tight on money when you consider we have so many slots to fill, that wanting to spend over 10% of the available money on Ramon Hernandez is as foolish as can be.  

    We need 2 quality starting pitchers. Your idea of signing 4-5 projects could work, but I can hear you now, bashing Ben for signing the next Penny and Smoltz... after the fact of course. We need a closer and at least another set-up guy. We need a DH, a SS, and even a RF'er more than a catcher. That's at least 7 slots ahead of our back-up catcher need. My guess is most GM would choose to not sign anyone and just go with Salty and Lava. I seriously doubt any GM would look to spend more than $1.5M on a veteran catcher for the Sox 2012 team.

    ...backup IP averages and pretending that is an accurate measure when most of it is first half back-up duty for an unproven MLB starting catcher like Salty...

    Try looking at the numbers before you spew more lies and venom...
    VTek Games started by month:
    April  11
    May   12
    June  11
    July   10
    Aug   11
    Sept   9

    VTek hit better than 2/3rds of MLB catchers did.
    VTek played more than 27 other MLB team's back-up played.

    You criticize Vtek's hitting and stamina.

    You ignore the facts. You ignore results. You ignore the vast disparity between how well pitchers do with VTek vs the other catchers we've had over the last decade. Voodoo magic. 

    You will minimize the future signing of VTek by another GM. You'll call him an idiot, and deny you ever said he would not be signed by another GM. You will never admit that our 2012 ERA will rise due to VTek's departure. You will call Beckett a "fat union slob" again for doing much worse without Vtek. You will wonder why Bard's numbers get worse, and probably blame it on Ben, or the new manager, anyone but the new catcher.



     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxmeister. Show soxmeister's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Guys, get a room ....


    Seriously, Vtek would make an excellent coach, but we need defensive backups who can throw somebody out and help the pitchers.   If you watched the games, you noticed Salty improving over the course of the season.  VTek can't throw me out as I sit here and type this.   

    We could live with him back as backup ... but his poor defense makes him a liability IMO.   
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    Guys, get a room ....


    Seriously, Vtek would make an excellent coach, but we need defensive backups who can throw somebody out and help the pitchers.   If you watched the games, you noticed Salty improving over the course of the season.  VTek can't throw me out as I sit here and type this.   

    Salty got worse as the season went on, except for April.
    VTek's arm amounted to about 12 SBs more than it should have been. I guess that outweighs the 42-22 record we had when he caught and the losing record with Salty. 

    We could live with him back as backup ... but his poor defense makes him a liability IMO. 

    Defense is much more than CS%.  
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay ...

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone:
    [QUOTE]Hernandez would be the starter, dimwit. Salty and Lavarnway are minimum level costs.   I wanted Varitek kicked to the curb in 2010, at age 38. Stop the homey propaganda. Salty and Lavarnway are not starter material, with Salty and his hands of stone. Hernandez at age 35 produced has solid career catcher skillset and is a perfect one year contract option 2. A dimwit wants to worry about 2-3M on catcher position and bring back frat 40 year old catcher who is incapable of finishing a season evern as a 53 games a year backup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What does Varitek rank in August and September, in his 53 game a year sample size!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cherington not mentioning Varitek or Wakefield when talking to the media about wanting FA Papelbon and Ortiz back is a very good sign! Red Sox need a capable and fit catcher, and Hernandez has a .364 and .341 OBP in last two years (.330 career) and .792 and .788 OPS in last 2 years (.749 career). Unlike Varitek, he is capable of fielding the position and finishing the season. Anyone wanting Varitek back after MIA during critical last week of 2011 collapse and 2010 annual last month or two total zero auto-out even as a rested backup is not living in the real world!
    Posted by hankwilliams[/QUOTE]
     
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