Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? A: Overwhelming Majority of Red Sox Fans Want Varitek to Stay Gone

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from WesternOregon. Show WesternOregon's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    Oh, like we're surprised by this "poll" result or something? Duh! Everyone has an opinion...

    Unless this forum becomes more generally interesting I may be drawn into something marginally more riveting: Public Broadcasting Television.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    Yes, VTek is old: real old in catcher years.Yes, his throwing arm is not what it used to be.Yes, I want him back as our back-up catcher. Why? It's obvious. 

    1) Winning. We win with VTek. It's not a fluke. It is a trend that is long-lasting, stable and about as near a certainty as can be. Take away all the Beckett starts and the disparity is still staggering between VTek and Salty. The Sox were 42-22 with VTek this year (22-12 with starters not named Beckett). They had a losing record with Salty. 

    2) Catcher offense. Many posters blast away at VTek's offense without looking at his numbers in the context of the state of MLB catchers these days. As you will see, it's not pretty. If you can look objectively at the subject, you will understand that VTek compares very well with about half of MLB starting catchers. STARTING CATCHERS! As hard as it is to find good hitting catchers in MLB, expecting your back-up catcher to be as good as half the starting catchers in MLB seems a bit unrealistic, right? Well, it seems many here do.
    In 2011, VTek placed...
    Slg% 14th  (.423)
    OBP   24th  (.300)
    OPS   17th  (.723)
    When you compare VTek's numbers to overall MLB catcher team numbers, his numbers would place:
    Slg%   8th
    OBP   21st
    OPS   13th
    His numbers are basically those of an average MLB catcher. And, he’s our back-up. Our BACK-UP!Those who like to say that since 2008, VTek has been a terrible hitter are right, but if you compare him to other MLB catchers…
    Out of the top 60 catchers in this 4 year timeframe by PAs, VTek places 39th.
    Certainly not great, but still the 9th best 2nd catcher offensively in baseball in theory.
      

    3) Stamina. While I certainly am not saying I trust VTek to start 110-135 games if Salty gets hurt, we have Lavarnway to tandem with Vtek. Here's a tidbit of information about 2011: out of all the catchers in MLB, how many had more innings caught than VTek? ... ONLY 31!   VTek caught about 40% of all innings for the Sox. 

    4) Impact on pitchers. The numbers have been documented over and over. Look for yourself. Numbers like this go back for years and years. It is not a fluke. It is not voodoo. It is what Vtek does over and over and over no matter how old he gets. 

                 (IP)  OPS  CERA

    Jon Lester:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (40)  .577  2.48

    Salty   (146) .717  3.77


    ‘10

    VTek    (38)  .492  1.88

    VMart (136) .656  3.64

    Cash    (27)  .649  3.38

     

    Josh Beckett:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (182) .587  2.62

    Salty     (11)  .916  7.36

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (36)  .851  7.18

    Vmart  (74) .823  5.11

    Cash    (10) .947  6.97

    Salty     (7) .936  3.86

     

    John Lackey:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (33)  .769  6.82

    Salty   (127) .874  6.31

    ‘10

    V’Tek   (41)  .724  3.29

    VMart (123) .805  4.81

    Salty     (22)  .646 2.86

    Cash     (18)  .627  3.93

    Molina  (12) .883  7.50

     

    Clay Buchholtz:

    ‘11

    V’Tek   (18)  .841  3.38

    Salty     (64)  .662  3.52

    ‘10

    V’Tek   (4)   .429  2.25

    VMart (165) .603 2.13


    Tim Wakefield:

    ’11

    V’Tek   (13) .634  4.15

    Salty   (142) .808  5.21

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (0)    n/a

    VMart (108)  .783  5.27

    Cash    (30)   .741  5.93

     

    Daisuke Matsusaka:

    ‘11

    V’Tek (35)  .545   3.82

    Salty   (2)  1.768  31.50

    ‘10

    V’Tek (50) .622  3.81

    VMart (69) .784 5.90

    Cash    (23) .670 3.57

    Salty    (7)  .703  5.40

    Brown (6)  .584  1.50

     

    Andrew Miller:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (30)  1.034  7.28

    Salty    935)   .681  4.08

     

    Erik Bedard:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (16)  .636  3.38

    Salty    (19)  .686  3.86

     

    Kyle Weiland:

    ‘11
    V’Tek (4)  1.323 13.50
    Salty   (18)  .865  7.64
    Lava      (3)  .200  0.00 

    Alfredo Aceves:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (42)  .580  2.34

    Salty    (67)  .642  2.82

    Lava    (5)    .675  1.93

     

    Daniel Bard:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (40)  .472  1.44

    Salty    (31)  .579  4.54

    Lava      (2)  .889  9.00

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (19)  .304  0.48

    VMart  (44) .651  2.64

    Cash     (7)   .247  0.00

    Career:

    V’Tek  (80)  .523  1.79

    Salty    (43)  .597  4.54

    VMart  (51)  .669  3.16

     

    Jonathan Papelbon

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (26)  .536  2.45

    Salty    (36)  .516  2.75

    Lava     (2)   .923 10.12

    ‘10

    V”Tek  (15)  .790  4.11

    VMart  (40)  .629  4.02

    Cash     (9)   .572  1.00

     

    Matt Albers:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (36)  .686  4.00

    Salty    (29)  .782  5.53

    Lava     (1)   .900  9.00

     

    Dan Wheeler:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (15)  .771  5.40

    Salty    (34)  .662  4.19

     

    Franklin Morales:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (14)  .671  3.14

    Salty    (17)  .871  4.24

          
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    Moon schools the anti-Tek brigade yet again.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]Yes, VTek is old: real old in catcher years. Yes, his throwing arm is not what it used to be. Yes, I want him back as our back-up catcher.   Why? It's obvious.   1) Winning. We win with VTek. It's not a fluke. It is a trend that is long-lasting, stable and about as near a certainty as can be. Take away all the Beckett starts and the disparity is still staggering between VTek and Salty. The Sox were 42-22 with VTek this year (22-12 with starters not named Beckett). They had a losing record with Salty.   2) Catcher offense. Many posters blast away at VTek's offense without looking at his numbers in the context of the state of MLB catchers these days. As you will see, it's not pretty. If you can look objectively at the subject, you will understand that VTek compares very well with about half of MLB starting catchers.   STARTING CATCHERS ! As hard as it is to find good hitting catchers in MLB, expecting your back-up catcher to be as good as half the starting catchers in MLB seems a bit unrealistic, right? Well, it seems many here do. In 2011, VTek placed... Slg% 14 th   (.423) OBP   24 th   (.300) OPS    17 th   (.723) When you compare VTek's numbers to overall MLB catcher team numbers, his numbers would place: Slg%    8th OBP     21st OPS    13 th His numbers are basically those of an average MLB catcher. And, he’s our back-up. Our BACK-UP! Those who like to say that since 2008, VTek has been a terrible hitter are right, but if you compare him to other MLB catchers… Out of the top 60 catchers in this 4 year timeframe by PAs, VTek places 39 th . Certainly not great, but still the 9 th best 2 nd catcher offensively in baseball in theory.     3) Stamina. While I certainly am not saying I trust VTek to start 110-135 games if Salty gets hurt, we have Lavarnway to tandem with Vtek. Here's a tidbit of information about 2011: out of all the catchers in MLB, how many had more innings caught than VTek? ... ONLY 31!   VTek caught about 40% of all innings for the Sox.   4) Impact on pitchers. The numbers have been documented over and over. Look for yourself. Numbers like this go back for years and years. It is not a fluke. It is not voodoo. It is what Vtek does over and over and over no matter how old he gets.                (IP)   OPS   CERA Jon Lester: ‘11 V’Tek   (40)   .577   2.48 Salty    (146) .717   3.77 Lava      (6)    .783   3.00 ‘10 VTek     (38)   .492   1.88 VMart (136) .656   3.64 Cash     (27)   .649   3.38 Brown    (7)   .693   2.57   Josh Beckett: ‘11 V’Tek   (182) .587   2.62 Salty      (11)   .916   7.36 ‘10 V’Tek   (36)   .851   7.18 Vmart   (74) .823   5.11 Cash     (10) .947   6.97 Salty      (7) .936   3.86   John Lackey: ‘11 V’Tek   (33)   .769   6.82 Salty    (127) .874   6.31 ‘10 V’Tek    (41)   .724   3.29 VMart (123) .805   4.81 Salty      (22)   .646 2.86 Cash      (18)   .627   3.93 Molina   (12) .883   7.50   Clay Buchholtz: ‘11 V’Tek    (18)   .841   3.38 Salty      (64)   .662   3.52 ‘10 V’Tek    (4)    .429   2.25 VMart (165) .603 2.13 Brown    (4) 1.041 11.25   Tim Wakefield: ’11 V’Tek    (13) .634   4.15 Salty    (142) .808   5.21 ‘10 V’Tek   (0)     n/a VMart (108)   .783   5.27 Cash     (30)    .741   5.93   Daisuke Matsusaka: ‘11 V’Tek (35)   .545     3.82 Salty    (2)   1.768   31.50 ‘10 V’Tek (50) .622   3.81 VMart (69) .784 5.90 Cash     (23) .670 3.57 Salty     (7)   .703   5.40 Brown (6)   .584   1.50   Andrew Miller: ‘11 V’Tek   (30)   1.034   7.28 Salty     935)    .681   4.08   Erik Bedard: ‘11 V’Tek   (16)   .636   3.38 Salty     (19)   .686   3.86   Kyle Weiland: ‘11 V’Tek (4)   1.323 13.50 Salty    (18)   .865   7.64 Lava       (3)   .200   0.00   Alfredo Aceves: ‘11 V’Tek   (42)   .580   2.34 Salty     (67)   .642   2.82 Lava     (5)     .675   1.93   Daniel Bard: ‘11 V’Tek   (40)   .472   1.44 Salty     (31)   .579   4.54 Lava       (2)   .889   9.00 ‘10 V’Tek   (19)   .304   0.48 VMart   (44) .651   2.64 Cash      (7)    .247   0.00 Career: V’Tek   (80)   .523   1.79 Salty     (43)   .597   4.54 VMart   (51)   .669   3.16   Jonathan Papelbon ‘11 V’Tek   (26)   .536   2.45 Salty     (36)   .516   2.75 Lava      (2)    .923 10.12 ‘10 V”Tek   (15)   .790   4.11 VMart   (40)   .629   4.02 Cash      (9)    .572   1.00   Matt Albers: ‘11 V’Tek   (36)   .686   4.00 Salty     (29)   .782   5.53 Lava      (1)    .900   9.00   Dan Wheeler: ‘11 V’Tek   (15)   .771   5.40 Salty     (34)   .662   4.19   Franklin Morales: ‘11 V’Tek   (14)   .671   3.14 Salty     (17)   .871   4.24            
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon I agree bringing back Tek with Lav could be a better move for the team.  I just don't see Lav being out of the equation unless he struggles in ST.  Salty being traded after one season would also be a stretch along with Lav taking over for Papi but anything is possible.

    I think Tek should be hired as some sort of bench or bullpen coach with Salty and Lav on the Roster.  I mentioned this before but Y. Molina and Lav might be the best fit in 2013, if our experiment doesn't work.  Molina calls a good game and both he and Lav will probably hit and have strong arms.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    moon I agree bringing back Tek with Lav could be a better move for the team.  I just don't see Lav being out of the equation unless he struggles in ST.  Salty being traded after one season would also be a stretch along with Lav taking over for Papi but anything is possible.

    I believe Salty still has one option left. If Lava looks great in ST, we could move Salty to AAA until someone gets hurt, struggles or perhaps gets traded. I'm sure his ego would suffer, but it wouldn't be the first time.

    I think Tek should be hired as some sort of bench or bullpen coach with Salty and Lav on the Roster.  I mentioned this before but Y. Molina and Lav might be the best fit in 2013, if our experiment doesn't work.  Molina calls a good game and both he and Lav will probably hit and have strong arms

    I mentioned signing Vtek to a lifetime services contract last winter, that is, if he wants to coach.

    Also, I think because catcher's defense is hard to gauge, some overvalue the CS% (arm).
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]moon I agree bringing back Tek with Lav could be a better move for the team.  I just don't see Lav being out of the equation unless he struggles in ST.  Salty being traded after one season would also be a stretch along with Lav taking over for Papi but anything is possible. I believe Salty still has one option left. If Lava looks great in ST, we could move Salty to AAA until someone gets hurt, struggles or perhaps gets traded. I'm sure his ego would suffer, but it wouldn't be the first time. I think Tek should be hired as some sort of bench or bullpen coach with Salty and Lav on the Roster.  I mentioned this before but Y. Molina and Lav might be the best fit in 2013, if our experiment doesn't work.  Molina calls a good game and both he and Lav will probably hit and have strong arms I mentioned signing Vtek to a lifetime services contract last winter, that is, if he wants to coach. Also, I think because catcher's defense is hard to gauge, some overvalue the CS% (arm).
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Not going to happen. Let him test the free agent market and see how many times thinks he's worth more than a bag of rocks.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from WesternOregon. Show WesternOregon's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]Moon schools the anti-Tek brigade yet again.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    harness...my good gawd...SNORE!!!!!

    No wonder I stay away from here.

    Have a great winter and take care of yourself...Go Sox...but I can't stand another minute of this "small ball" small talk. It's not that it isn't baseball but it's like some of you (including moonslav) enjoy hearing yourselves talk way more than you ADD to the conversation...hibernation calls me...
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? : Not going to happen. Let him test the free agent market and see how many times thinks he's worth more than a bag of rocks.
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    It shouldn't happen either.  Come on, Varitek is through.  He can't hit after June, he was a 180 hitter for us the last two months, he can't his grandmother out, and he has trouble blocking pitches.  Until the Red Sox finally divest themselves of their ridiculous loyalty to their old timers we will never get out from under.  Ryan Lavarnway is ready to become a solid ballplayer for us and with a big upside.  Varitek can't to any of that, and keep in mind that the Red Sox have kept him in baseball an extra three years.

    Think back to after the 2008 season when he hit FA.  He did not get one offer from any team.  If the Red Sox hadn't stupidly stepped in and signed him he would have been out of baseball.  We saved his rear end after 2010.  Give the guy a night, a gold watch and wish him a fond adieu.  If he still wants to play tell him to try elsewhere.  I think that after than fruitless search he would retire because no other team would sign him.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? : harness...my good gawd...SNORE!!!!! No wonder I stay away from here. Have a great winter and take care of yourself...Go Sox...but I can't stand another minute of this "small ball" small talk. It's not that it isn't baseball but it's like some of you (including moonslav) enjoy hearing yourselves talk way more than you ADD to the conversation...hibernation calls me...
    Posted by WesternOregon[/QUOTE]

    I'm not far behind. I'll be on my own hiatus soon. Have a nice winter. Good health to you.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? : It shouldn't happen either.  Come on, Varitek is through.  He can't hit after June, he was a 180 hitter for us the last two months, he can't his grandmother out, and he has trouble blocking pitches.  Until the Red Sox finally divest themselves of their ridiculous loyalty to their old timers we will never get out from under.  Ryan Lavarnway is ready to become a solid ballplayer for us and with a big upside.  Varitek can't to any of that, and keep in mind that the Red Sox have kept him in baseball an extra three years. Think back to after the 2008 season when he hit FA.  He did not get one offer from any team.  If the Red Sox hadn't stupidly stepped in and signed him he would have been out of baseball.  We saved his rear end after 2010.  Give the guy a night, a gold watch and wish him a fond adieu.  If he still wants to play tell him to try elsewhere.  I think that after than fruitless search he would retire because no other team would sign him.
    Posted by seabeachfred[/QUOTE]

    I suggest you read Moon's last post very carefully.
    Then look at team W/L records over the last decade with and w/o Tek catching.
    What he gets out of the pitching staff over-rides all else.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    Think back to after the 2008 season when he hit FA.  He did not get one offer from any team.

    We don't know if anyone called VTek's agent. If they did, they might have thought the price too high, not that they did not wwant him. They are two different things. You really think because nobody offered more than $5M/yr and had to give up a comp draft pick, it means nobody wanted him?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    Winning. We win with VTek

    2009 and 2010 and 2011 is not winning. Varitek has averaged just 53 games in the last 2 years and has been unfit to finish either season. Even if you want to compile a W/L record with each position player and pretend that is cause and effect (it is not), Varitek is not capable of finishing yet another Red Sox loser season. 

    If the 80% are vocal enough, Red Sox will not longer have to suffer through another loser season where Varitek goes into zero mode and drinks beer and plays video games in his personal frat house. 

    Keep it up, and Varitek will not be offered a FA contract. Varitek has no market value for a FA MLB contract. None. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsbozo1. Show sportsbozo1's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    Moon so do you like the idea of hiring Tek as the pitching coach/back up catcher? I think thats what LaRussa did in hiring Duncan and I'ld say that Dave Duncan is one of the top pitching coaches in baseball today,all you have to do is look at his results. I'm pretty sure that Tek's as cerebral Duncan where pitching is concerned.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    I'd like to see him come back. If they decide not to bring him back, I do hope he is offered a coaching position. His knowledge of the game, the players, and pitching is invaluable and will be hard to be replace.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    'Tek was a top backup catcher in 2011....faded by the end, perhaps it IS the end, perhaps it was a slump, perhaps at 40 he needs to play 25% rather than 40% of the games.  But I'm not the first person here to ask the naysayers exactly which MLB teams in 2011 had a better backup catcher....

    Lav?  A ridiculous gamble as our 2012 starting catcher given his limited experience and doubts about his defensive ability.  2012 backup?  Not if you see him as a potential starting catcher....let him develop catching 100+ games in Pawtucket.  What is it people see in him over Salty?  Is it being all of 2 years younger?  Is it Lav's .001 improvement over Salty's .737 OPS in MLB in 2011? 

    Salty?  How many 26-year old or younger catchers did better than Salty in 2012?  Don't compare the guy to Bench, Fisk or even the 30-year old Varitek.  Most teams would be happy with a cheap, young (for a catcher) developing guy like Salty....but oh no, he's not good enough for the macho (but anonymous, imagine that!) cavalier keyboard knights on the internet.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    Why are you calling me at home ?  My pitchers did not drink in the dugout  ..

    Since we were  2-57 after being behind in the 7th inning, next season   during "Sweet Caroline"  the whole team will do  shots  of "Jack"  in the dugout... we  may not rally   but unlike this year  it will not be so hard to take..

    Tek as team captain also advises all fans to take a shot with the team in the 8th  along  with Jerry and Don.... "Jack" the offical Sox painkiller.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    moon I don't remember anything about Tek in 2008 but if a team did really want him we would have heard about it. If no team was on record as pursuing him than no team did pursue him.  Of course maybe had the Sox not wanted Tek back there would have been more than enough teams to make a lower offer ...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]moon I don't remember anything about Tek in 2008 but if a team did really want him we would have heard about it. If no team was on record as pursuing him than no team did pursue him.  Of course maybe had the Sox not wanted Tek back there would have been more than enough teams to make a lower offer ...
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    I recall the Tigers showed interest.
    And Torre also mentioned him.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek? : It shouldn't happen either.  Come on, Varitek is through.  He can't hit after June, he was a 180 hitter for us the last two months, he can't his grandmother out, and he has trouble blocking pitches.  Until the Red Sox finally divest themselves of their ridiculous loyalty to their old timers we will never get out from under.  Ryan Lavarnway is ready to become a solid ballplayer for us and with a big upside.  Varitek can't to any of that, and keep in mind that the Red Sox have kept him in baseball an extra three years. Think back to after the 2008 season when he hit FA.  He did not get one offer from any team.  If the Red Sox hadn't stupidly stepped in and signed him he would have been out of baseball.  We saved his rear end after 2010.  Give the guy a night, a gold watch and wish him a fond adieu.  If he still wants to play tell him to try elsewhere.  I think that after than fruitless search he would retire because no other team would sign him.
    Posted by seabeachfred[/QUOTE]

    Fred - have you read Moon's analysis of the Sox' catchers' performance in 2011?  Are you aware of Varitek's 2011 overall batting versus the average of all catchers and versus the average of all backup catchers?  Are you aware of Varitek's salary vs. the average for all players and all veteran players?

    Re Lavarnway, you wrote "is ready to become a solid ballplayer".  What evidence leads you to that conclusion?  Please be specific, rather than references to his grandmother ad nauseum.  You can do better than that.


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]harnass you are a bully and a stooge!
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]Wow. You really have nothing if you're not copying and pasting do you?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    moon I don't remember anything about Tek in 2008 but if a team did really want him we would have heard about it. If no team was on record as pursuing him than no team did pursue him.  Of course maybe had the Sox not wanted Tek back there would have been more than enough teams to make a lower offer ...

    1) I do not think every offer or phone call made by agents inquiring about offers are reported.

    2) I think the comp pick involved with signing VTek was a deterrent, but did not show that no team wanted Vtek, but rather that the value of the comp pick (said by some to be worth in the area of $5M) added to the contract cost
    made it highly unlikely that many poorer teams would even make a call based on their budget limits (and rich ones too).

    3) I truly believe that if signing VTek in 2008 did not mean giving up a comp pick and the bidding was in the $1.5-2.5M/yr range, there would have been 5 or more teams getting into the negotiations.

    Would you agree that if he signs somewhere else this off season for $1.5M, that it shows other teams value him, and they probably valued him even more 3 years ago? (3 years younger)
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    Fred - have you read Moon's analysis of the Sox' catchers' performance in 2011?  Are you aware of Varitek's 2011 overall batting versus the average of all catchers and versus the average of all backup catchers?  Are you aware of Varitek's salary vs. the average for all players and all veteran players?

    Thanks SMLV. I really don't think most fans are "aware" of just how bad catcher's hitting is in MLB. There's a reason for it as well, and many don't want to hear about that either. A catcher makes a huge difference in most games that goes way beyond his bat, and even his bat and arm.

    So many fans look at BA, HRs, OPS and or CS% and say, "he stinks, or he's OK, or he's good" and that's the extent of their thinking. The "art of catching" involves many different facets of which several can not be quantified or measured well. Coming from a stats orientated guy, it was hard for me to be persuaded that the catcher's influence on a pitching staff's performance could be so great. I am a relative newbie to the concept, and thank harness for exposing me to irrefutable evidence that shows a strong coorelation between a pitcher's performance and which of the team's catcher is catching him.

    Here is what I posted earlier for the doubters to review...

    Why I want VTek as our 25-40% catcher in 2012:


    1) Winning. We win with VTek. It's not a fluke. It is a trend that is long-lasting, stable and about as near a certainty as can be. Take away all the Beckett starts and the disparity is still staggering between VTek and Salty. The Sox were 42-22 with VTek this year (22-12 with starters not named Beckett). They had a losing record with Salty.
     

    2) Catcher offense. Many posters blast away at VTek's offense without looking at his numbers in the context of the state of MLB catchers these days. As you will see, it's not pretty. If you can look objectively at the subject, you will understand that VTek compares very well with about half of MLB starting catchers. STARTING CATCHERS! As hard as it is to find good hitting catchers in MLB, expecting your back-up catcher to be as good as half the starting catchers in MLB seems a bit unrealistic, right? Well, it seems many here do.
    In 2011, VTek placed...
    Slg% 14th  (.423)
    OBP   24th  (.300)
    OPS   17th  (.723)
    When you compare VTek's numbers to overall MLB catcher team numbers, his numbers would place:
    Slg%   8th
    OBP   21st
    OPS   13th
    His numbers are basically those of an average MLB catcher. And, he’s our back-up. Our BACK-UP!Those who like to say that since 2008, VTek has been a terrible hitter are right, but if you compare him to other MLB catchers…
    Out of the top 60 catchers in this 4 year timeframe by PAs, VTek places 39th.
    Certainly not great, but still the 9th best 2nd catcher offensively in baseball in theory.
      

    3) Stamina. While I certainly am not saying I trust VTek to start 110-135 games if Salty gets hurt, we have Lavarnway to tandem with Vtek. Here's a tidbit of information about 2011: out of all the catchers in MLB, how many had more innings caught than VTek? ... ONLY 31!   VTek caught about 40% of all innings for the Sox. 

    4) Impact on pitchers. The numbers have been documented over and over. Look for yourself. Numbers like this go back for years and years. It is not a fluke. It is not voodoo. It is what Vtek does over and over and over no matter how old he gets. 

                 (IP)  OPS  CERA

    Jon Lester:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (40)  .577  2.48

    Salty   (146) .717  3.77


    ‘10

    VTek    (38)  .492  1.88

    VMart (136) .656  3.64

    Cash    (27)  .649  3.38

     

    Josh Beckett:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (182) .587  2.62

    Salty     (11)  .916  7.36

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (36)  .851  7.18

    Vmart  (74) .823  5.11

    Cash    (10) .947  6.97

    Salty     (7) .936  3.86

     

    John Lackey:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (33)  .769  6.82

    Salty   (127) .874  6.31

    ‘10

    V’Tek   (41)  .724  3.29

    VMart (123) .805  4.81

    Salty     (22)  .646 2.86

    Cash     (18)  .627  3.93

    Molina  (12) .883  7.50

     

    Clay Buchholtz:

    ‘11

    V’Tek   (18)  .841  3.38

    Salty     (64)  .662  3.52

    ‘10

    V’Tek   (4)   .429  2.25

    VMart (165) .603 2.13


    Tim Wakefield:

    ’11

    V’Tek   (13) .634  4.15

    Salty   (142) .808  5.21

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (0)    n/a

    VMart (108)  .783  5.27

    Cash    (30)   .741  5.93

     

    Daisuke Matsusaka:

    ‘11

    V’Tek (35)  .545   3.82

    Salty   (2)  1.768  31.50

    ‘10

    V’Tek (50) .622  3.81

    VMart (69) .784 5.90

    Cash    (23) .670 3.57

    Salty    (7)  .703  5.40

    Brown (6)  .584  1.50

     

    Andrew Miller:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (30)  1.034  7.28

    Salty    935)   .681  4.08

     

    Erik Bedard:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (16)  .636  3.38

    Salty    (19)  .686  3.86

     

    Kyle Weiland:

    ‘11
    V’Tek (4)  1.323 13.50
    Salty   (18)  .865  7.64
    Lava      (3)  .200  0.00 

    Alfredo Aceves:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (42)  .580  2.34

    Salty    (67)  .642  2.82

    Lava    (5)    .675  1.93

     

    Daniel Bard:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (40)  .472  1.44

    Salty    (31)  .579  4.54

    Lava      (2)  .889  9.00

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (19)  .304  0.48

    VMart  (44) .651  2.64

    Cash     (7)   .247  0.00

    Career:

    V’Tek  (80)  .523  1.79

    Salty    (43)  .597  4.54

    VMart  (51)  .669  3.16

     

    Jonathan Papelbon

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (26)  .536  2.45

    Salty    (36)  .516  2.75

    Lava     (2)   .923 10.12

    ‘10

    V”Tek  (15)  .790  4.11

    VMart  (40)  .629  4.02

    Cash     (9)   .572  1.00

     

    Matt Albers:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (36)  .686  4.00

    Salty    (29)  .782  5.53

    Lava     (1)   .900  9.00

     

    Dan Wheeler:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (15)  .771  5.40

    Salty    (34)  .662  4.19

     

    Franklin Morales:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (14)  .671  3.14

    Salty    (17)  .871  4.24

          
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    Determine to what degree the team will fight to retain in-house free agents Jonathan Papelbon, David Ortiz, J.D. Drew, Erik Bedard, Tim Wakefield and Jason Varitek.

    This was the attempt at humor from the NYT. Wakefield and Varitek have zero FA major league contract market value. The best these old parasites will do is to get a minor league contract spring training tryout contract for MLB roster spot.

    Red Sox fans should fight management not to be stupid enough to offer MLB contracts to players who can't get one.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE] I really don't think most fans are "aware" of just how bad catcher's hitting is in MLB.           
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]I think we all still miss Carlton Fisk, Johnny Bench and Thurman Munson.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?

    In Response to Re: Fan former Red Sox Player FA Referendum #1: Jason Varitek?:
    [QUOTE]Determine to what degree the team will fight to retain in-house free agents Jonathan Papelbon, David Ortiz, J.D. Drew, Erik Bedard, Tim Wakefield and Jason Varitek . This was the attempt at humor from the NYT. Wakefield and Varitek have zero FA major league contract market value. The best these old parasites will do is to get a minor league contract spring training tryout contract for MLB roster spot. Red Sox fans should fight management not to be stupid enought to offer MLB contracts to players who can't get one.
    Posted by hankwilliams[/QUOTE]

    I wonder why he is a Type B FA?

    I could go either way on this.  Part of me says to keep him 3 months while Lavarnway gets more experience in AAA.  Keeps his clock from starting.  And Tek has been a great 1st half hitter over the past 3 years.

    Part says offer him arb and let him walk.  Take the draft pick.  Bring up Lavarnway and work him in slow, and do some RH DH work.  Tek didn't throw out anyone late in the year.  I think there were 5 games in late Aug and Sept where the other team went 4-0 in SBs, or better.  

    OTOH, he was 42-22 last year, and Salty was 47-49.  I wouldn't overrate that, but I wouldn't ignore it.
     

Share