Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from LeftyGrove. Show LeftyGrove's posts

    Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    For long time fans, pre the 2004 Magic, what bothers you today about, Tito going, the collapse, who needs to go, who needs to stay and what Free Agents we should pursue and why during the off-season. No offense to new fans, I just am curious of what us old timers think.Thanks, Lefty
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    In Response to Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans:
    For long time fans, pre the 2004 Magic, what bothers you today about, Tito going, the collapse, who needs to go, who needs to stay and what Free Agents we should pursue and why during the off-season. No offense to new fans, I just am curious of what us old timers think.Thanks, Lefty
    Posted by LeftyGrove


    Well I am not happy that Tito decided to leave, but it does appear to be his choice. I also do not advocate bringing dinosaurs like Torre or Valentine to take over as manager, I'm more inclined to see a good young manager come here with a Joe Maddon type background.

    One thing we learned recently is that teams can overcome adversity from one year to the next, our 2011 Bruins taught us that lesson, so let's hope that belief feeds to the 2012 Red Sox players who will come back driven to reverse their 2011 embarassment.

    I am also inclined to the belief that chasing the top free agents on the market might not be a good idea, as recent history has proven. I think Bill James and his statistical metrics for assisting in acquiring players does not address the capabilities of that player to handle playing in Boston.

    To stay:
    Gonzalez, Pedroia, Scutaro, Crawford, Ellsbury, Lester, Buccholz, Bard, Albers, Saltalamacchia, Youkilis or Ortiz, and Papelbon.

    To go:
    Wakefield, Bedard, Miller, Varitek, Drew, Reddick, McDonald and Jackson - oh yeah and Sweet Caroline (HAS TO GO)!

    On the fence:
    Beckett, Youkilis or Ortiz, Lowrie, Wheeler & Jenks.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from LeftyGrove. Show LeftyGrove's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    Agree to all except, keep SWEET CAROLINE, or replace it with SHIPPIN UP TO BOSTON. Thanks, for the comments
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    Depends which wrong we wish to discuss. If we are asking why they fell so far so fast in September or why they did not reach their goal of going to a WS.

    The depth of the collapse was a lack of character in the room. Some of it had to do with the manager always treating men like men and some of these men weren't worthy.

    Why they did not reach the WS? Pitching. They lost two starters and one had the worst season of any RS starter with over 25 starts in history. The stop gap guys weren't there and Theo did not retool. 7 plus ERA in September they weren't going to win a lot of games and they sure as heck weren't going anywhere in the playoffs.

    But that lead was so big that it was a lack of character amongst some players that set a clubhouse in turmoil and cost the 4-5 wins that would have made it a playoff team.

     
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    UR preaching to the choir, Katz.
    People don't want to hear reason or logic.
    They just want change.

    Same will apply just prior to 2012 Presidential election.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSNRaleigh. Show RSNRaleigh's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    At 55, am I really an old timer?  Became a Sox fan in 1967 - loved watching games with my grandfather (and still remember the first game I watched - John Wyatt was on in relief!).

    Over the years, I've seen all kinds of Red Sox teams - selfish ones, hopeful ones, hopeless ones - The Sox of this year were really like no other, though.  From the time they left spring training (which was awful) and staggered into the season (take a look at the box scores of the first dozen games - signs of trouble were all there even that early on).

    What was wrong?  Tito's magic was wearing off on many of these players - just a bad combination, and the team just developed no apparent chemistry, flow, identity.  Way too many fundamental baseball mistakes all year long....bizarre over the top offensive explosions with long, long periods of low to no productivity - and you just got the sense that the "team ego" was really fragile - that they rarely could come from behind if knocked down early.  Watching the games this year just wasn't much fun at all, for the most part - and I watched an awful lot of them.

    Another thing - perhaps too many positional conflicts - VTek, though captain, was being displaced at last.  A Gon trying to fit in....the revolving door at shortstop, Youk's injuries impact, the cancers that were Crawford (got down on himself so quickly) and Lackey (self explanatory)....Drew (also self explanatory)...the mess of the starting rotation and the impact of that on the bullpen - Bard's awful start, Jenks/Wheeler's ineffectiveness - what a mess, when you think of it.  Ortiz calling out Tito publically for not starting Aceves.  And this is just what we saw - tip of the iceberg - who knows what the dynamic in the dugout was through all of this.

    So, it probably is appropriate for Tito to take the fall - I really liked his tenure and he deserves better - I hope he finds a soft, successful landing.  Not so sure about Theo - certainly he sees things in players that many of the fans don't (why anyohe would pursue Lackey.....and did he consider Crawford's abililty to fit in Boston?  A Gon?  Big difference bet. Boston and Tampa, or san Diego).

    What's next?  Find a young-ish manager that appears as though he can manage this type of collection of high-paid stars in this market - not an easy thing.  And be sure that it is someone that really wants the job.

    Player-wise, I put that in another thread, but the gotta-go folks are VTek, Drew, Lackey for sure - wishing Crawford could go, but that's not realistic.  Build the team around Pedroia/Ellsbury/Gonzalez - perhaps Lester and Beckett and Bard and Buccholz (if he can toughen up, get healthy) - and if there isn't an issue/clique amongst these pitchers.

    Too soon to really have a good idea what you do next - glad there is some time for them to work it out.  I don't like all the various pundit reports on how this can screw the team up for many years.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    Hard to answer that without knowing the full, inside story of what went on in that clubhouse. I think the fans are entitled to the truth , rather than having to read between the lines and speculate. As to what to do next, I would say that there needs to be a complete overhaul of the coaching and training / conditioning staffs.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    The Oakland A's once were dominant in spite of what was a hairy club house. 
    ( Maybe because of? Those guys wanted to show one another up. Ho. ) Those players knew what to do when they took the field. The manager demanded it of them. They delivered.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtDawgSox. Show DirtDawgSox's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    Tito said that he trusted his players. I think he trusted them too much. I think that he looked the other way at first when he saw things that were wrong. He trusted that the players would rebound. They did not. Tito is a nice man and a bit of an enabler. That's what went wrong. The egos and entitlements developed from this.
    Treated like rock stars and acted like them. When the team was winning things were overlooked. Once the glaring days of September happened, fingers were pointing. Tito said he wanted to leave. For the past few months he was a wreck about this team. He told Remy that in many talks they had. He was "burned out" so he decided to leave. This happens all the time. Boston is a pressure cooker environment. 
    New strong manager who can be nice but not buddies with the players. New coaches who work closely with the new manager as a unit so that if there are problems the whole unit addresses it with the team. That way the players see a united front. Have some basic rules for the club house and maybe even post them in the club house. Players who mouth off, whine, or don't cooperate should sit until they can.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    Unfortunately, some managers come to spring training expecting their players to be thoroughly schooled in fundamentals, to remember them, and to apply them day in and day out -- because that is their job.
    Unfortunately, that is not how most humans operate. They need reminders, refreshers, and drills, lots of drills, whether they like it or not, whether they think they already know better, whether they would rather play golf. In particular, they need lots of defensive drills and simulated situations until reactions on the field become second nature, and, especially, until they recognize what's up and learn to anticipate.   That puts them a jump ahead, sometimes literally. 
    A pro basketball coach in LA who's had a pretty good record is known for running a rigorous camp.  He kind of likes his reputation as a guru, but that is not the foundation of his success. The foundation is -- well, a foundation. 
    John Wooden followed this practice with veteran teams. Ditto Rod Dedeaux. 
    One will hear, "Yeah, but pros are different."  They certainly are. They make more mistakes than should be acceptable. "Yeah, but unlike those kids, they have to go out there and perform every day." Right, that gives them all the more opportunities to apply good habits.  They are directly involved in situations day after day. 
    I don't buy the idea that vets should be allowed to get in shape, mentally and physically, on their own or generally to prepare for the season as they see fit. Otherwise all you would need is someone to write down the lineup for exhibition games. And I believe that their play, their attitudes, and their behavior should be closely monitored during the season. A Simon Legree is not necessary for this function. It can be executed by a variety of styles.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    I see the Sox mirroring the early decade Yanks - signing FAs with long term contracts, trading the farm for superstars that are not needed and all of it with no regard to how the players mesh in the clubhouse.  The 2003-2008 Sox had team spirit, leadership in the clubhouse and only one prima donna who didn't become a disruption until the end.  Present day Sox team is a mixture of prima donnas, high paid underperforming stars, has beens, never will be's and fortunately a core that keeps them almost on top.  It is time to put a team on the field - not a group of players and put them under the leadership of a strong manager with some fire.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    In Response to Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans:
    Tito said that he trusted his players. I think he trusted them too much. I think that he looked the other way at first when he saw things that were wrong. He trusted that the players would rebound. They did not. Tito is a nice man and a bit of an enabler. That's what went wrong. The egos and entitlements developed from this. Treated like rock stars and acted like them. When the team was winning things were overlooked. Once the glaring days of September happened, fingers were pointing. Tito said he wanted to leave. For the past few months he was a wreck about this team. He told Remy that in many talks they had. He was "burned out" so he decided to leave. This happens all the time. Boston is a pressure cooker environment.  New strong manager who can be nice but not buddies with the players. New coaches who work closely with the new manager as a unit so that if there are problems the whole unit addresses it with the team. That way the players see a united front. Have some basic rules for the club house and maybe even post them in the club house. Players who mouth off, whine, or don't cooperate should sit until they can.
    Posted by DirtDawgSox


    That's how Dice was seen in Japan. Falling from grace may have been the result of a little fish swimming upstream in larger waters.

    Keep in mind, many  very talented rock groups self-destructed.

    I'm not comparing a rock group to a baseball team as chemistry varies in proportion to art form. It's simply more of a reminder that returning to fundamentals (what got ya there in the first place) is the best way to regain perspective.
    But that unto itself pales in comparison to skill-set.
    The two should walk hand-in-hand.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from william93063. Show william93063's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    If Dave Martinez is not hired by Chicago to replace Ozzy  Guillen I think he should be one of the top 3 candidates the sox conxider to replace Tito.  Martinez has been Joe Maddon's bench coach during this whole meteoric rise of Tampa to one of the best run organizations in all of MLB.  I agree that nostaglically Joe Torre would be cool but at 71 years old he is not a long term solution.  If sox management can abide DeMarlo Hale he may be as good a choice as Martinez. There are many candidates we are probably not even thinking about that could do a good job here. Don Wakamatsu has managing experience(did some good work with a weak Seattle team) and perhaps Tony LaRussa is a possiblity though my guess is St. Louis reups his contract.

    As for the clubhouse malcontents I think we can be pretty sure that Theo and upper management are well aware of who the trouble makers are and I believe the worst offenders will not be part of this team next season.  It seems pretty clear that ownership would have much preferred that Francona stay but given the disastrous clubhouse chemistry they also fully understand why he decided to leave.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    In Response to Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans:
    If Dave Martinez is not hired by Chicago to replace Ozzy  Guillen I think he should be one of the top 3 candidates the sox conxider to replace Tito.  Martinez has been Joe Maddon's bench coach during this whole meteoric rise of Tampa to one of the best run organizations in all of MLB.  I agree that nostaglically Joe Torre would be cool but at 71 years old he is not a long term solution.  If sox management can abide DeMarlo Hale he may be as good a choice as Martinez. There are many candidates we are probably not even thinking about that could do a good job here. Don Wakamatsu has managing experience(did some good work with a weak Seattle team) and perhaps Tony LaRussa is a possiblity though my guess is St. Louis reups his contract. As for the clubhouse malcontents I think we can be pretty sure that Theo and upper management are well aware of who the trouble makers are and I believe the worst offenders will not be part of this team next season.  It seems pretty clear that ownership would have much preferred that Francona stay but given the disastrous clubhouse chemistry they also fully understand why he decided to leave.
    Posted by william93063
    It is far from clear that upper management wanted Francona to manage the Sox next season.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    Epstein.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    What is wrong? Really there are so many pieces to that, it is daunting to even try to answer. But, from a strategic standpoint we seem to be modeling our player acqusition and minor league systems after the Yankees. In other words, fix any player void by buying the best (in Theo's opinion) and most expensive free agent. Or trade for players, giving up top level prospects, totally depleting the minor leagues. After what, 10 years of Theo, our minor league system is depleted, there are multiple examples of overpaying for underperforming free agents and although, yes, we won in 04 and 07, now we wake up today with our backs against the wall. Bottom line, implementing a Yankee model will simply not work. We are not the Yankees in terms of payroll.

    What to do next? I suggest we literally blow this team up. Unconditionally release and eat the contracts of folks like Lackey and trade away players like Youk for top prospects of other teams, not for replacements today, but for the future. Reduce our payroll, go with a modified Rays-Royals-Pirate model of obtaining great young prospects via trade and the draft. I am more than willing to endure several years of sub .500 performance to obtain long term strategic success with a healty, not a stocked farm system.

    Who to absolutely keep? Pedey, Ells (until he goes free agent or trade him if we can get a huge bucket of great prospects), Lester, AGon, Crawford (we have to give him a chance), Bucholtz, Bard, Scutaro, Aviles, Aceves, Lavarnaway, Salty, Reddick

    Who to absolutey release or trade? Lackey, Youk, Beckett, Wake, Tek, Lowrie, DMac, Drew is moot, Bedard, Miller

    Other must changes? Obviously retain a tough minded, fundamental orientated Manager (Oh how I wish we could get Maddon), a complete new staff of coaches, a complete new medical and strength staffs.

    If we stand pat, I will go into next season with absolutely zero expectations of getting to the playoffs and be muttering all season, just waiting for the meltdown. I propose we go young and totally rebuild.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Fans pre 2004 - Your Opinion on what is wrong, what to do next - no offense post 04 fans

    UNQUESTIONABLY, WAKE AND TEK MUST NOT BE RESIGNED.
    NEXT ON THE LIST TO GO SHOULD BE YOUKILIS AND SALTY.
    YOUKILIS IS OVER THE HILL AND A WHINER AT THE PLATE.
    SALTY JUST HAS BASIC HITTING FLAWS AND CAN'T HIT THE
    FAST BALL BECAUSE OF HIS LONG SWING. MAYBE WE CAN
    GET SOMETHING IN TRADE FOR THESE TWO. LAVARNWAY
    SHOULD START.. LOOK AT WHAT WEITERS IS DOING FOR THE
    ORIOLES. !! LACKEY MUST GO, ALONG WITH SCUTARO, WHO
    CAN'T FIELD AND THROW AT THE LEVEL OF A TOP SHORTSTOP.
    IGLESIAS HAS TO BE GIVEN A CHANCE. WE DESPERATELY
    NEED A RH POWER BAT. TOO MANY TIMES THIS YEAR WE
    HAD TO USE THAT STIFF MCDONALD AND LOWRIE IN SITUATIONS
    WHERE A LEGIT HITTER LIKE WILLINGHAM OR CUDDYER
    WAS NECESSARY. AND YES.....THEO MUST BE FIRED !
     
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