Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from NLU75. Show NLU75's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

    [/QUOTE] is his arm good enough for third


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    Probably a better place to audition, N.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    I disagree. The Red Sox are locked in at 2B with Pedroia. Betts has nothing left to prove at the minor league level. Fast tracking isn't the problem when earned. A lot of other teams do it with plenty of success. The problem with the Red Sox is that most of the supposed "can't-miss" talent faltered this year and displayed almost no encouraging signs for the future.

    Moving Betts to a position that he can play for the Red Sox, getting his bat regularly into the lineup, and taking advantage of a young, cost-controlled player for the next six seasons sounds exactly like the type of thing the Red Sox should be doing now. Moving prospects for older big names doesn't always work out either. You need balance. At least with young players, if they fail, they're not costing you as much as a free agent bust. You can replace one with the other (like the Red Sox just did by swapping out Bradley for Betts).

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

    [/QUOTE]

    Moving players from their original position is quite common. Yaz was a SS who moved to the OF. Pedey moved from SS to 2B. Nothing against Betts, but I don't see why he should be so special that he can't be moved to another position in the minors.

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    Betts is not going to be shipped out again; nor should he be. That's not what you do with your No. 1 prospect. Now, is CF his spot for the future? He's young enough and basically talented enough to actually master most any spot if given time but 2nd base is out; no more, please about that. and so probably is SS or 3B. LF is probably the most likely spot. WHY?

    Because his minor league fielding record is hardly a nest of shining lights. In 53 games, started, at one recent point, he made 32 errors in 229 2B starts. Then, in 13 games at 3B, he made 9 errors!!!! I think we can forget the infield period.

    While there's plenty of evidence to think his infield play will improve. I don't see any reason whatsoever to push it. Holt plays a VG 3B. Espedes, Nava, Craig, and Betts could make a nice grouping for the OF. And Nava is not a bad first baseman to spell Napoli against these RH slider-masters.

    The last option (sending him down to learn how to play CF) is, to me, probably the most stupid thing they could do. They.ve got a hitter, live with it. There have been dozens of guys in LF these past 75 years that were a lot worse than Betts will not be no matter how hard he tries. You should have seen Teddy floating around out there! (Not to mention "Moose" Salters. Moose was able to record n error for every 6 games he played in the outfield. The Sox got rif of him, and he went on to hit in the .300 range AND for power. But, in LF he was a certified circus.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    Red Sox fans should temper their expectations for 21-year-old Mookie Betts.

    I'm always fascinated by similar statistics even if the similarity could be more random than meaningful. Compare these minor leagues stats for two middle infielders drafted a year apart in fifth rounds of MLB drafts:

    Player A 1311 PA, .315/.408/.470/.877

    Player B 1183 PA, .320/.407/.463/.870

    ... and their MLB stats since their respective call-ups this season (going into today's games):

    Player A 52 PA, .250/.294/.375/.669., 86 OPS+

    Player B 69 PA, .344/.406/.443/.848. 144 OPS+

    Player A is Mookie Betts and Player B is Seattle's Chris Taylor.

    Betts and Taylor have significant differences, most notably that Taylor is two years older than Betts. In the minors, Taylor generally played in hitter-friendlier leagues (although the environments ostensibly have been flipped at the MLB level). Betts was drafted out of high school while Taylor was drafted out of the University of Virginia.

    Taylor apparently has claimed the Mariner shortstop job from 24-year-old middle infielder Brad Miller, who posted these minor league and MLB stats:

    milb 999 PA, .334/.409/.516/.925

    MLB 679 PA, .232/.296/.373/.668, 90 OPS+

    It will be interesting to watch the development of Betts, Taylor and Miller.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

    [/QUOTE]

    Moving players from their original position is quite common. Yaz was a SS who moved to the OF. Pedey moved from SS to 2B. Nothing against Betts, but I don't see why he should be so special that he can't be moved to another position in the minors.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Amen.  Most HS players who are drafted were pitchers, shortstops and centerfielders because they were by far the best players on their HS teams and leagues, and that's where the best players play.  And college players who are drafted have likely already undergone a position switch since HS.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    Moving a player off position is almost common practice.  However I agree that waiting until a guy gets to the majors and moving him is unnecessary.  


    The Sox are not in contention and Betts is very very young, if they truly believe his place is in the outfield they can let him learn to play it in Pawtucket.  If 2nd base is obviously his best position, then he might represent more value to the club in a trade.  Yes, I love the ideal of a homegrown guy being a star, but if 2nd is blocked and this guy represents the most value at 2nd then it is optimal to package him up for a Stanton-esq type player. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Moving a player off position is almost common practice.  However I agree that waiting until a guy gets to the majors and moving him is unnecessary.  

    The Sox are not in contention and Betts is very very young, if they truly believe his place is in the outfield they can let him learn to play it in Pawtucket.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to illinoisredsox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

    [/QUOTE]

    Moving players from their original position is quite common. Yaz was a SS who moved to the OF. Pedey moved from SS to 2B. Nothing against Betts, but I don't see why he should be so special that he can't be moved to another position in the minors.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Amen.  Most HS players who are drafted were pitchers, shortstops and centerfielders because they were by far the best players on their HS teams and leagues, and that's where the best players play.  And college players who are drafted have likely already undergone a position switch since HS.

    [/QUOTE]

    which is why the Sox are loaded with up the middle players and pitchers in their system. 

    Other teams take more risks on the 1B hitter out of high school, or the corner hitting college guy.  Yes, those guys pan out but more often they don't....which is why there is a lot of systems weaker than ours right now. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

    [/QUOTE]

    Moving players from their original position is quite common. Yaz was a SS who moved to the OF. Pedey moved from SS to 2B. Nothing against Betts, but I don't see why he should be so special that he can't be moved to another position in the minors.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Then let him play there...in the minors.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

    [/QUOTE]

    Moving players from their original position is quite common. Yaz was a SS who moved to the OF. Pedey moved from SS to 2B. Nothing against Betts, but I don't see why he should be so special that he can't be moved to another position in the minors.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Then let him play there...in the minors.

    [/QUOTE]


    Betts was tearing it up, offensively, in the minors.

    The kid deserved to be rewarded for doing well.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree. Plus, I will add that I disagree fast tracking these kids in general. There's a reason conventional wisdom states that players should have a certain amount of at bats in the minors.

    Alternately..if they are going to fast track the kids..then they have to allow for season long growing pains and stop moving them back and forth. The season is done at this point. Let them play in the majors every night to get the experience.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    What's interesting is Betts is being promoted for hitting and Bradley is being demoted for hitting. Betts isn't ready to field his position, Bradley is almost overqualified to field his. So hitting trumps fielding in every respect. I disagree with it. You should have both skills to be on a MLB roster. Not ready for one and not the other.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    Or you carry someone solely for his bat (DH, pinch hitter) or solely for their glove (late-inning defensive replacement). Wasting rosters spots on either is silly. You want a complete ballplayer to fill the utility, back-up positions.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Or you carry someone solely for his bat (DH, pinch hitter) or solely for their glove (late-inning defensive replacement). Wasting rosters spots on either is silly. You want a complete ballplayer to fill the utility, back-up positions.

    [/QUOTE]

    I generally agree with this, but back ups and utility guys are usually there for a reason.  They aren't complete ballplayers, if they were....they would more than likely be starters.

    Also if a guy can really really really excel at one thing, he can be a 24th or 25th guy, a Dave Roberts if you will.  Also if you are one of the best at something, like Ortiz with his bat, it's easy to justify him on the roster as solely an offensive player.  Obviously it would be nice to have defensive backups who could bunt or run, or draw a walk but if you are the best defender in the league at you position.....you'll have a place somewhere on someones roster. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to hill55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Red Sox fans should temper their expectations for 21-year-old Mookie Betts.

    I'm always fascinated by similar statistics even if the similarity could be more random than meaningful. Compare these minor leagues stats for two middle infielders drafted a year apart in fifth rounds of MLB drafts:

    Player A 1311 PA, .315/.408/.470/.877

    Player B 1183 PA, .320/.407/.463/.870

    ... and their MLB stats since their respective call-ups this season (going into today's games):

    Player A 52 PA, .250/.294/.375/.669., 86 OPS+

    Player B 69 PA, .344/.406/.443/.848. 144 OPS+

    Player A is Mookie Betts and Player B is Seattle's Chris Taylor.

    Betts and Taylor have significant differences, most notably that Taylor is two years older than Betts. In the minors, Taylor generally played in hitter-friendlier leagues (although the environments ostensibly have been flipped at the MLB level). Betts was drafted out of high school while Taylor was drafted out of the University of Virginia.

    Taylor apparently has claimed the Mariner shortstop job from 24-year-old middle infielder Brad Miller, who posted these minor league and MLB stats:

    milb 999 PA, .334/.409/.516/.925

    MLB 679 PA, .232/.296/.373/.668, 90 OPS+

    It will be interesting to watch the development of Betts, Taylor and Miller.

    [/QUOTE]


    Interesting, but was Player B's Seattle stint continuous, or broken up likeBetts' was. And you never mentioned anything but hitting. What were Taylor's fielding stats in the minors compared to Mookie's. I'm convinced both will be all stars. Where will Betts play, that's the 64 dollar question?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Or you carry someone solely for his bat (DH, pinch hitter) or solely for their glove (late-inning defensive replacement). Wasting rosters spots on either is silly. You want a complete ballplayer to fill the utility, back-up positions.

    [/QUOTE]

    I generally agree with this, but back ups and utility guys are usually there for a reason.  They aren't complete ballplayers, if they were....they would more than likely be starters.

    Also if a guy can really really really excel at one thing, he can be a 24th or 25th guy, a Dave Roberts if you will.  Also if you are one of the best at something, like Ortiz with his bat, it's easy to justify him on the roster as solely an offensive player.  Obviously it would be nice to have defensive backups who could bunt or run, or draw a walk but if you are the best defender in the league at you position.....you'll have a place somewhere on someones roster. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Ortiz could have easily have been a full-time 1b on other teams. It just turned out that it worked out as him as an Edgar Martinez type for his career. Big Papi is not a bad fielder, in the interleague games he held his own. He's not going to save you, but he's not going to hurt you. I think had he played 120 games a year at 1b, he'd have turned himself into a solid fielder.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    ct, Gomes, Carp, Ross, Nava, Middlebrooks were on the roster for both. Unless you have really solid starting 9, your bench is not going to have a 1-tool guy. Roberts on that Sox team was a luxury, and so was Minky, and back in the day so was Dave Stapleton for that matter. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     


    Ortiz could have easily have been a full-time 1b on other teams. It just turned out that it worked out as him as an Edgar Martinez type for his career. Big Papi is not a bad fielder, in the interleague games he held his own. He's not going to save you, but he's not going to hurt you. I think had he played 120 games a year at 1b, he'd have turned himself into a solid fielder.

    [/QUOTE]

    So true.  And the teams he's played on have, for the most part, had excellent fielding 1st basemen. The Twins had Doug Mienkiewicz for most of the time Ortiz was with them.  Boston has had Kevin Millar, Kevin Youkis, Adrian Gonzalez and Mike Napoli.  Millar is the only one that is average at best, the others are all very good with a few Gold Gloves thrown in.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    You don't have to be great to play 1st, but you'll notice that Napoli, for instance, is pretty outstanding. So the Sox, since Millar, want that infield defense at 1st. It's a priority for them. Some teams it's not as great. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ct, Gomes, Carp, Ross, Nava, Middlebrooks were on the roster for both. Unless you have really solid starting 9, your bench is not going to have a 1-tool guy. Roberts on that Sox team was a luxury, and so was Minky, and back in the day so was Dave Stapleton for that matter. 

    [/QUOTE]

    So you can have crappier bench players when the starting 9 is stronger??? If the starting 9 is not stronger, then it is likely an indictment of the overall talent on a 25 man roster....in which case the 24th to 25th guys are bound to be lesser talents.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Or you carry someone solely for his bat (DH, pinch hitter) or solely for their glove (late-inning defensive replacement). Wasting rosters spots on either is silly. You want a complete ballplayer to fill the utility, back-up positions.

    [/QUOTE]

    I generally agree with this, but back ups and utility guys are usually there for a reason.  They aren't complete ballplayers, if they were....they would more than likely be starters.

    Also if a guy can really really really excel at one thing, he can be a 24th or 25th guy, a Dave Roberts if you will.  Also if you are one of the best at something, like Ortiz with his bat, it's easy to justify him on the roster as solely an offensive player.  Obviously it would be nice to have defensive backups who could bunt or run, or draw a walk but if you are the best defender in the league at you position.....you'll have a place somewhere on someones roster. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Ortiz could have easily have been a full-time 1b on other teams. It just turned out that it worked out as him as an Edgar Martinez type for his career. Big Papi is not a bad fielder, in the interleague games he held his own. He's not going to save you, but he's not going to hurt you. I think had he played 120 games a year at 1b, he'd have turned himself into a solid fielder.

    [/QUOTE]


    This I agree with, Ortiz very easily could have passed for a 1B with his bat...

     
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