Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:

    In response to hill55's comment:

    Red Sox fans should temper their expectations for 21-year-old Mookie Betts.

    I'm always fascinated by similar statistics even if the similarity could be more random than meaningful. Compare these minor leagues stats for two middle infielders drafted a year apart in fifth rounds of MLB drafts:

    Player A 1311 PA, .315/.408/.470/.877

    Player B 1183 PA, .320/.407/.463/.870

    ... and their MLB stats since their respective call-ups this season (going into today's games):

    Player A 52 PA, .250/.294/.375/.669., 86 OPS+

    Player B 69 PA, .344/.406/.443/.848. 144 OPS+

    Player A is Mookie Betts and Player B is Seattle's Chris Taylor.

    Betts and Taylor have significant differences, most notably that Taylor is two years older than Betts. In the minors, Taylor generally played in hitter-friendlier leagues (although the environments ostensibly have been flipped at the MLB level). Betts was drafted out of high school while Taylor was drafted out of the University of Virginia.

    Taylor apparently has claimed the Mariner shortstop job from 24-year-old middle infielder Brad Miller, who posted these minor league and MLB stats:

    milb 999 PA, .334/.409/.516/.925

    MLB 679 PA, .232/.296/.373/.668, 90 OPS+

    It will be interesting to watch the development of Betts, Taylor and Miller.

    Interesting, but was Player B's Seattle stint continuous, or broken up likeBetts' was. And you never mentioned anything but hitting. What were Taylor's fielding stats in the minors compared to Mookie's. I'm convinced both will be all stars. Where will Betts play, that's the 64 dollar question?

    Chris Taylor has been on Seattle's 25-man roster continuously since his call-up on July 25, although Taylor has started only 18 of the Mariners' 24 games since then (splitting time with Brad Miller).

    When taken in the fifth round of the June 2012 draft, Taylor was considered a glove-first shortstop described as a "poor man's Deven Marrero" in reference to the shortstop taken by the Red Sox in first round of that draft:

    http://www.ussmariner.com/2012/06/05/2012-5th-round-pick-ss-chris-taylor/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ussmariner.com/2012/06/05/2012-5th-round-pick-ss-chris-taylor/

    FanGraphs describes Taylor with "Defensively, he’s an above-average shortstop with good range, soft hands and a strong arm" and John Sickels writes that Taylor "has above-average range, soft hands, and makes few mental mistakes. His arm strength is just adequate and as a result I think he fits better at second base; he's stretched on difficult throws from shortstop. That said, he's not a bad shortstop by any means: he's solidly good there, certainly quite playable, but my read is that he can be truly excellent at second."

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2014-top-10-prospects-seattle-mariners/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2014-top-10-prospects-seattle-mariners/

    http://www.minorleagueball.com/2014/7/25/5937185/seattle-mariners-promote-shortstop-prospect-chris-taylor" rel="nofollow">http://www.minorleagueball.com/2014/7/25/5937185/seattle-mariners-promote-shortstop-prospect-chris-taylor

    Taylor has a concerning five errors in his first 22 MLB games, but also turns in an occasional spectacular play:

    http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/51231442/v35384493/seadet-taylor-makes-a-diving-stop-fires-to-end-3rd/?c_id=mlb" rel="nofollow">http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/51231442/v35384493/seadet-taylor-makes-a-diving-stop-fires-to-end-3rd/?c_id=mlb

    In statistically insignificant samples, Taylor has a UZR/150 of 1.1 in 160 innings at shortstop this season while Betts has a UZR/150 of a negative 25.4 in 119 innings in the outfield:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13757&position=SS" rel="nofollow">http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13757&position=SS

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13611&position=OF" rel="nofollow">http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13611&position=OF

    Again, we'll have fun watching the development of the young players.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ct, Gomes, Carp, Ross, Nava, Middlebrooks were on the roster for both. Unless you have really solid starting 9, your bench is not going to have a 1-tool guy. Roberts on that Sox team was a luxury, and so was Minky, and back in the day so was Dave Stapleton for that matter. 

    [/QUOTE]

    So you can have crappier bench players when the starting 9 is stronger??? If the starting 9 is not stronger, then it is likely an indictment of the overall talent on a 25 man roster....in which case the 24th to 25th guys are bound to be lesser talents.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, I think you could carry conceivably a Bradley type if your starting OF for instance was 3 really solid hitters and played 140 plus games a year. Absolutely. But not if you are platooning the way the Sox have done and not if only 1 guy and sometimes no one is producing. That makes the 10th,11th,12th,13th guys so important to be 2-way players. Hit and field.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

    [/QUOTE]

    I have been on the same page all along DC.  We simply don't have the prospects needed to take over the correct positions like Ells, Pede, Youk did for us.  That's why we need to trade for ones that can play their natural positions well first and foremost because defense is crucial as we learned after trading Iggy.  I understand why our FO traded him but he could have been a fixture for years if he continued to hit.  He covered SS and 3B as well as anyone we have ever seen.  I like Betts but you may be right about the arm even though JBJ has no power and has yet to handle major league pitching like Iggy for a couple of years so that makes him less valuable.  Bogy is another kid who may not have a real position so we really do need to start making moves to solidify 3B and SS at the very least ASAP.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    These guys are supposed to be the future but I'd rather see them in the future, not now.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Moving a player off position is almost common practice.  However I agree that waiting until a guy gets to the majors and moving him is unnecessary.  

     

    The Sox are not in contention and Betts is very very young, if they truly believe his place is in the outfield they can let him learn to play it in Pawtucket.  If 2nd base is obviously his best position, then he might represent more value to the club in a trade.  Yes, I love the ideal of a homegrown guy being a star, but if 2nd is blocked and this guy represents the most value at 2nd then it is optimal to package him up for a Stanton-esq type player. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Holy cow, Hugh. I absolutely agree with you. The SOX FO knew that Pedey was their 2nd baseman for years. Betts should have been groomed at a different position long before this. Put this blunder on the SOX FO where it can stand in line behind all the other blunders this year.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    I think Xander is a guy who is not getting any better at the MLB level. He seems to be losing confidence (the common thread with everyone of these kids, Bradley being the worst offender) at the plate. Last year, he was a wide-eyed kid who was thrown into a playoff chase and handled himself way ahead of his age. But this year, he's really showing what happens to kids who are rushed. The book on Xander for pitchers is getting bigger and bigger. Too many bad at bats for a kid this age.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from billge. Show billge's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In spite of being the athlete he is , Betts needs lots more work in the outfield as he seems to lose or take a bad track to the ball sometimes. especially after we have been spoiled watching Jackie

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think Xander is a guy who is not getting any better at the MLB level. He seems to be losing confidence (the common thread with everyone of these kids, Bradley being the worst offender) at the plate. Last year, he was a wide-eyed kid who was thrown into a playoff chase and handled himself way ahead of his age. But this year, he's really showing what happens to kids who are rushed. The book on Xander for pitchers is getting bigger and bigger. Too many bad at bats for a kid this age.

    [/QUOTE]

    Bogy and JBJ both have a long way to go offensively for sure but more importantly they along with Middy can't play in the same lineup until they improve their skill set.  Some of us talked about this being our downfall since ST and it scripted out exactly the way we called it.  We need to solidify more positions with major league ready talent before competing again.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    crazed, it goes back to the Sox WS winning dynamic...veteran players. That's how you win WS titles. Not with a kiddie corps. The teams that have been successful with kiddie corps rosters might have some lightning in a bottle seasons, but never do they get past the 1st round of a playoff, and often they don't make the playoffs. You win with veteran talent. Always have, always will. You can have a couple of young-ins and that's it, and those guys better be talented right away--Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, Ellsbury.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    The Sox did not and could not replace Ellsbury, Salty, and Drew....all 3 positions were failures and add 3b to the black hole with Middlebrooks/Xander not holding up.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Unfortunately you can't morph Betts bat with Bradley's glove/arm. If Betts was a 2b and originally groomed as a 2b, maybe let him play it in the minors all of next season. This fast tracking kids and moving them because the position is taken in MLB is nuts in this case. No need to forcefeed Betts in CF. Unnecessary. I'd like to see him get some reps at 2b, but it's not possible (well, it is, but that's another story). Sox have ruined some prospects in my opinion, and while Betts will make it I think. He should make it where he is comfortable or brought to the MLB level at the time it's appropriate. Not now. Or he should be traded to a team that will use him at 2b.

    [/QUOTE]

    Not sure why fans think it is important that they see a player play a certain position. 

     

    Any team that wants Betts in a trade had undoubtedly scouted him dozens of times in the minors.  If anything, if he wrk out in CF (and for some reason, does not stay) it makes him more versatile and teams that don't need a 2B any time soon (Hi, Seattle! Hi, Detroit! Looking good, Cleveland!) might be more interested. 

     

    Teams that need a 2B have already seen him play 2B, and watching a guy field a ground ball in the minors is about the same as watching him field one in the majors.  (Actually, if you have seen the difference in attention paid by the respective groundskeeping crews, fielding a grounder in the minors is harder than in the majors.)

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    Sizemore was a veteran, but even though he may be impressing Philly, his production numbers are 1 HR, 7 RBI for Philly, and that just makes him Nava-esque at best. Relying on a guy who was off for 2 years to replace an Ellsbury was a giant risk in itself.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The Sox did not and could not replace Ellsbury, Salty, and Drew....all 3 positions were failures and add 3b to the black hole with Middlebrooks/Xander not holding up.

    [/QUOTE]

    I was never a Salty fan and feel AJ was as good or better offensively but couldn't fit in the clubhouse.  I think Ross is the one who really let the team down this season.  Vasquez has some good defense and I can't wait to see how Swihart develops, at least these kids will probably hold down their positions.  Bogy, Middy, JBJ, Betts and Holt?  I'm not sure where any of these guys will end up unless they hit well on a consistent level.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    From what I've seen so far, this trip up, Mookie will be just fine in CF. Good arm, speed to burn, been getting good jumps. What's not to like?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The Sox did not and could not replace Ellsbury, Salty, and Drew....all 3 positions were failures and add 3b to the black hole with Middlebrooks/Xander not holding up.

    [/QUOTE]

    I was never a Salty fan and feel AJ was as good or better offensively but couldn't fit in the clubhouse.  I think Ross is the one who really let the team down this season.  Vasquez has some good defense and I can't wait to see how Swihart develops, at least these kids will probably hold down their positions.  Bogy, Middy, JBJ, Betts and Holt?  I'm not sure where any of these guys will end up unless they hit well on a consistent level.

    [/QUOTE]


    Not sure I agree on Ross.  He was always slated to be the back-up, playing 1-2 games a week.  His numbers this year are not a lot different than they were last year; can't see what more you would expecting from him.  Yes, he had a couple big hits in the World Series, but he wasn't tearing the cover off the ball. 

     

    His value to the team right now is doing what he is doing, playing once or twice a week and mentoring Vazquez on catching in the big leagues.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to illinoisredsox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to craze4sox's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The Sox did not and could not replace Ellsbury, Salty, and Drew....all 3 positions were failures and add 3b to the black hole with Middlebrooks/Xander not holding up.

    [/QUOTE]

    I was never a Salty fan and feel AJ was as good or better offensively but couldn't fit in the clubhouse.  I think Ross is the one who really let the team down this season.  Vasquez has some good defense and I can't wait to see how Swihart develops, at least these kids will probably hold down their positions.  Bogy, Middy, JBJ, Betts and Holt?  I'm not sure where any of these guys will end up unless they hit well on a consistent level.

    [/QUOTE]


    Not sure I agree on Ross.  He was always slated to be the back-up, playing 1-2 games a week.  His numbers this year are not a lot different than they were last year; can't see what more you would expecting from him.  Yes, he had a couple big hits in the World Series, but he wasn't tearing the cover off the ball. 

     

    His value to the team right now is doing what he is doing, playing once or twice a week and mentoring Vazquez on catching in the big leagues.

    [/QUOTE]

    Having Tek as Salty's mentor made more sense because of his past success even though Salty had little hope of ever succeeding him.  Ross has a .255 OBP, even for a back up catcher that's pretty useless at the major league level, especially on a team with a rookie catcher and little offense already. 

     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    Would the Red Sox be better off with Dan Butler in Ross' spot?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    No because Ross can mentor Vasquez.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    No because Ross can mentor Vasquez.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree we need a veteran who can mentor Vasquez and Swihart and Ross is a stand up guy.  I'm just wondering if his lack of offense keeps him in that role.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from chickenandboose. Show chickenandboose's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    I am miss Mookie when he gets traded and starts going 20/20 each season with a high average... He is legit unlike the rest of our prospects.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    Mentor, mentor, mentor.  Everyone talks about the mentoring Vazquez needs.  Well, what I've seen, he doesn't need any mentoring.  Look at the way he handles himself, moving in and outside the strike zone, blocking balls in the dirt, framing, and his arm is nothing short of phenomenal.

    Yeah, I know he had a few passed balls the other day, but so didn't the opposing catcher and it was a day game with the shadows making a difference.

    My friends, what big veteran pitcher do we have now who would feel uncomfortable with Vasquez behind the plate?  Right, nobody.

    The way Vazquez is catching, it wouldn't hurt if he mentored Ross.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Swihart is the backup next year with Vazquez mentoring him.  OK, perhaps that's an overstatement, but my point is that he doesn't need to be mentored by Ross.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to ampoule's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Mentor, mentor, mentor.  Everyone talks about the mentoring Vazquez needs.  Well, what I've seen, he doesn't need any mentoring.  Look at the way he handles himself, moving in and outside the strike zone, blocking balls in the dirt, framing, and his arm is nothing short of phenomenal.

    Yeah, I know he had a few passed balls the other day, but so didn't the opposing catcher and it was a day game with the shadows making a difference.

    My friends, what big veteran pitcher do we have now who would feel uncomfortable with Vasquez behind the plate?  Right, nobody.

    The way Vazquez is catching, it wouldn't hurt if he mentored Ross.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Swihart is the backup next year with Vazquez mentoring him.  OK, perhaps that's an overstatement, but my point is that he doesn't need to be mentored by Ross.

    [/QUOTE]


    You are probably right. Let's spend the money elsewhere and go with the kids. We have Butler and Lava if one struggles.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to moonslav59's comment:


    In response to ampoule's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Mentor, mentor, mentor.  Everyone talks about the mentoring Vazquez needs.  Well, what I've seen, he doesn't need any mentoring.  Look at the way he handles himself, moving in and outside the strike zone, blocking balls in the dirt, framing, and his arm is nothing short of phenomenal.


    Yeah, I know he had a few passed balls the other day, but so didn't the opposing catcher and it was a day game with the shadows making a difference.


    My friends, what big veteran pitcher do we have now who would feel uncomfortable with Vasquez behind the plate?  Right, nobody.


    The way Vazquez is catching, it wouldn't hurt if he mentored Ross.


    It wouldn't surprise me if Swihart is the backup next year with Vazquez mentoring him.  OK, perhaps that's an overstatement, but my point is that he doesn't need to be mentored by Ross.





    You are probably right. Let's spend the money elsewhere and go with the kids. We have Butler and Lava if one struggles.


    [/QUOTE]



    Absolutely, and I'm sure you can share the numbers, the money saved by staying young and in-house would be substantial.


    Does the team have the option on Ross next year? 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from chickenandboose. Show chickenandboose's posts

    Re: Fast Tracking Betts For The Wrong Position

    In response to dannycater's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    No because Ross can mentor Vasquez.

    [/QUOTE]

    He trains with the Molina brothers during the off season.  He doesn't need Ross...

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share