Fire Francona

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    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    Has there ever been a shot on TV with Francona discussing the game with anybody in the dugout ??  
    Posted by ALaGatorAL


    From what I've seen the amount of interaction he has with people in the dugout is the same as the other managers have. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    If they would ever take their head out of their butts and learn something about the game, they'd realize how ignorant their posts are. 
    Posted by royf19


    AMEN.
     
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    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Fire Francona:
    At what point does Francona actually have to take some responsibilty for his losses? He doesn't manage games- he is perpetually managing the season. Sometimes you have to manage games. He does it in the postseason, but he's the worst game manager in baseball during the regular season. No bunts, no pinch hits, terrible pitching management. Since Schilling left we've looked like a bunch of undisciplined 4th graders out there. I'm beginning to think Schilling was Tito's brain. Starting McDonald in the 3rd game of the year on a team with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Letting Salty hit (he was like 0-10 at the time) in the 7th inning with two men on and 1 out in a 3-1 game, with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Waiting till Lackey had given up 9 runs to put Wake in. Waiting till Dice K had given up 7 runs and let two more get on base before putting Wake in. I could go on and on. All you have to do is watch one game to see moves he misses.
    Posted by Scott8340

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    In Response to Re: Fire Francona : Haha.  Yeah, I am positive some player in the dugout called the Roberts steal.  That is extremely likely.  As far as what i saw or didn't see:  I saw a talented club not lose their nerve down 3-0 and then play great.  Sure, it is entirely possible that Francona had absolutely nothing to do with guiding the club through that.  I'll grant you that, because i really don't know the inner workings (none of us do).  But, my point remains - you can't have it both ways: if Francona is to be held responsible when the club fails, he has to be held responsible when the club succeeds.  To me, it is a bit more nuanced:  The whole organization, front office, coaches, scouts, players share in the responsibility for outcomes.  But, if people want to just destroy Francona when the club fails, they really ought to praise him when the club succeeds.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus

    In most wins, the manager makes out the lineup card and watches his team beat the other team. When it's appropriate, he needs to be ready to make moves that will help the team win. When a team loses, most of the time it's because the other team beat them. There are far more times when a manager can make a move that causes his team to score a much needed run or recognizes that a pitcher is in trouble and needs to be removed before the game gets out of hand. Francona gets an C+ when the team is winning easily, but when he needs to make a move that will have a positive effect on the outcome of an in doubt  game or games, he deserves an F. He is a failure as a strategical manager. I can only deduce that he has no idea how to create a much needed run or when a pitcher is losing it or when a pitcher is having a very good game.
    His credit for the team winning is his salary, it's what he's paid to do. As I've said many times, if he were compensated for his game saving moves and fined for his poor moves or his non moves when needed, he'd be bankrupt in a month !
    All managers make poor decisions, but none make as many as Francona. His buffoonery has become an offensive weapon for the opponents, they have come to count on "The Francona Factor".
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from swandive. Show swandive's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    In Response to Re: Fire Francona : The Chicken Littles represent complainers and know-it-alls. If you go to any Internet forum or read the comments to online articles, you will see that most of the comments are from those types. The majority of RSN keeps their mouth shut or doesn't enjoy reading forums and comments - too much negativity. A good fan can suffer in silence. What does one gain by coming here to complain or to vent?
    Posted by silversteinsox


    well, you're definitely not a know-it-all. you're more of a know-nothing.
    the majority of RED SOX NATION can't read.
    kind of like the tea partyists.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    In Response to Re: Fire Francona : I'll never understand the amount of blame Francona receives on this board.
    Posted by mikeyinthebronx


    No rational person does.  This just RSN with their Chicken Little mentality.  Quite frankly, the schtick has gotten really old. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Fire Francona:
    At what point does Francona actually have to take some responsibilty for his losses? He doesn't manage games- he is perpetually managing the season. Sometimes you have to manage games. He does it in the postseason, but he's the worst game manager in baseball during the regular season. No bunts, no pinch hits, terrible pitching management. Since Schilling left we've looked like a bunch of undisciplined 4th graders out there. I'm beginning to think Schilling was Tito's brain. Starting McDonald in the 3rd game of the year on a team with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Letting Salty hit (he was like 0-10 at the time) in the 7th inning with two men on and 1 out in a 3-1 game, with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Waiting till Lackey had given up 9 runs to put Wake in. Waiting till Dice K had given up 7 runs and let two more get on base before putting Wake in. I could go on and on. All you have to do is watch one game to see moves he misses.
    Posted by Scott8340


    Amen to all of that, but wait..., wait for it, here come all the Francoma apologists!!
    It's amazing to me how many people think he is a good manager. I personally happen to think he is terrible, but I admit that is just my point of view, based on the way I would manage (much more proactively than Francoma does). But to think he is a GOOD manager, c'mon. Seriously, name one thing he is particularly good at, other than oft cited but hard to measure "clubhouse chemistry", and I would even question that, given that some guys don't even look like they care any more. Honestly, I don't know what Management sees in him, although the way Management moves are going these days, they may not be in a position to throw stones!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucbom. Show lucbom's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    You're all right, he's the reason Dice-K gave up seven runs in two-plus innings. And he's the reason nobody except for Pedroia is hitting. When a team is playing this poorly, in all facets of the game, there's plenty of blame to go around. Tito is part of the team, so he most definitely shares the blame. But to suggest he's THE problem is absurd.
    Posted by LloydDobler


    Your right on "Lloyd"....it is all on Dice K, BUT, if many watching the game can see that Dice K is getting hammered, then why does Francona/Young still leave him in the game until he gives up 7 runs, and leaves 2 on before Francona/Young pull him.  Its almost like Francona has made a decision that it was fruitless to try and win the game, after 2 innings.  Very frustrating.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    I just dont get it. When they win, Francona is no where to be mentioned. If they lose it's solely his fault. These tito convos are dumb. Red sox fans seem to be the only people that dont like him or think hes bad. Saying he had nothing to do with 04? If you gonna blame 08- present on tito you at least have to give him 04. Most of these arguments have no common sense or baseball knowledge in them anyway.
    Posted by redsoxlaxer12


    "WHEN THEY WIN, FRANCONA IS NO WHERE TO BE MENTIONED"
    He's mentioned constantly as payee on his salary check.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    That's a fine idea to fire Francona.Who needs a manager that only leads the team to win the World Series 33% of the time during his tenure with the team.The Sox should have won at least 7 championships during his 6 years as manager.     They should trade Lester too.He's pitched 3 games already and doesn't have a win.
    Posted by mrmojo1120


    Leads????? I'll give you the fact that he was there and he had the title of manager.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    In Response to Re: Fire Francona : I'll never understand the amount of blame Francona receives on this board.
    Posted by mikeyinthebronx


    Same here..the amount of threads on this subject is ridiculous..
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikeyinthebronx. Show mikeyinthebronx's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    You're all right, he's the reason Dice-K gave up seven runs in two-plus innings. And he's the reason nobody except for Pedroia is hitting.
    Posted by LloydDobler


    I'll never understand the amount of blame Francona receives on this board.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from REDSOX-11. Show REDSOX-11's posts

    Re: Fire Francona


    And he deserves 99% of it too.

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    In Response to Re: Fire Francona : I'll never understand the amount of blame Francona receives on this board.
    Posted by mikeyinthebronx

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    In Response to Re: Fire Francona :   Really?  There was no guidance down 3-0 to the Yankees in the ALCS, or in the world series sweep that followed?  You don't think he guided the club deftly through that?  You can't have it both ways.  You think he should be held accountable when the teams loses, and that makes sense to me.  Everyone involved is accountable.  But, if that is the case, everyone is accountable when they win too.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus

    Where was the guidance when they went down 0-3? What did you see him do during the WS sweep that contributed to or changed a potential loss into a win?? He sat and spit. He had as much to do with that sweep as the bat boy did.
    Do you firmly believe he ordered the Robert's steal?? It's more likely that Manny suggested it rather than Francona. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from booksy. Show booksy's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Fire Francona:
    At what point does Francona actually have to take some responsibilty for his losses? He doesn't manage games- he is perpetually managing the season. Sometimes you have to manage games. He does it in the postseason, but he's the worst game manager in baseball during the regular season. No bunts, no pinch hits, terrible pitching management. Since Schilling left we've looked like a bunch of undisciplined 4th graders out there. I'm beginning to think Schilling was Tito's brain. Starting McDonald in the 3rd game of the year on a team with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Letting Salty hit (he was like 0-10 at the time) in the 7th inning with two men on and 1 out in a 3-1 game, with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Waiting till Lackey had given up 9 runs to put Wake in. Waiting till Dice K had given up 7 runs and let two more get on base before putting Wake in. I could go on and on. All you have to do is watch one game to see moves he misses.
    Posted by Scott8340

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    In Response to Re: Fire Francona : lucbom, those 7 runs came awfully quick.  You can't just hook your guy, because you gotta take care of your bullpen arms.  Sometimes you just have to leave it up to your starter, who clearly doesn't have anything, to knuckle down, man up, and fight to eat some innings.  Daisuke didn't do that last night ... at all.  It is damned if you do, damned if you don't in that situation because you don't want to burn through your pen in one night.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus



    And the one thing to add is you need to give the reliever time to warm up and get ready.

    The problem with all these critics is that they don't pay attention to what's going on around the league. They act like Francona is the only manager who tries to milk a starter as long as possible. They never name a manager who wouldn't do the same thing, because all you have to do is look up that team and see the same thing.

    For example, one idiot last year ripped Francona for taking out a starter after about 100 pitches in his first start. Then he went on about how Nolan Ryan was changing the culture in Texas and having their pitchers go longer. So I looked it up and what to you know — their pitchers had the same pitch counts as Boston's.

    If they would ever take their head out of their butts and learn something about the game, they'd realize how ignorant their posts are. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxlaxer12. Show redsoxlaxer12's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    I just dont get it. When they win, Francona is no where to be mentioned. If they lose it's solely his fault. These tito convos are dumb. Red sox fans seem to be the only people that dont like him or think hes bad. Saying he had nothing to do with 04? If you gonna blame 08- present on tito you at least have to give him 04. Most of these arguments have no common sense or baseball knowledge in them anyway.
    Posted by redsoxlaxer12


    wait never mind. Even if they win francona gets blamed for doing something wrong and is called luckey. Or better yet is blkamed for an "if they had lost". Well they didn't so STF.U
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    In Response to Re: Fire Francona : Your right on "Lloyd"....it is all on Dice K, BUT, if many watching the game can see that Dice K is getting hammered, then why does Francona/Young still leave him in the game until he gives up 7 runs, and leaves 2 on before Francona/Young pull him.  Its almost like Francona has made a decision that it was fruitless to try and win the game, after 2 innings.  Very frustrating.
    Posted by lucbom


    lucbom, those 7 runs came awfully quick.  You can't just hook your guy, because you gotta take care of your bullpen arms.  Sometimes you just have to leave it up to your starter, who clearly doesn't have anything, to knuckle down, man up, and fight to eat some innings.  Daisuke didn't do that last night ... at all.  It is damned if you do, damned if you don't in that situation because you don't want to burn through your pen in one night.  
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    To add to my above post. Look at Baltimore a couple of games ago. Showalter, who some posters have raved about, brought back Jake Arieta in the fourth after he allowed six runs in the third. He got just one out and allowed two more runs before finally being replaced. The line -- 3.1 IP, 8 ER. Manny Acta kept Vargas in a game last week to have a 3.1 IP, 7 ER, 9 H line. Then there is Nelson Figueroa for Houston. He allowed one run in the second and five runs in the third. He's kept in the game gets through the fifth, is brought back in the sixth and allows four more runs, getting just one out before taken out. Just a couple of examples.
    Posted by royf19


    Here's another ...

    Last week, Cole Hamels got shelled by the Mets. Charlie Manuel, who I have tons of respect for, stuck with him a while so he wouldn't kill the bullpen in an early-April game. Hamels never found it and gave up six runs in 2 2/3 innings.

    Fans always say "get him out of there" at the first sign of trouble as if there's an endless supply of relievers. You don't manage a game on April 11 the same way you do on Oct. 11.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    Francoma defenders act as if this is the first time he let his starting pitcher implode. 
    Posted by Encinitas


    Hardly.  We all know it happens a bunch of times during the season.  The point is that there are reasons for 'letting the starter implode' and that if you're paying attention you'll see the other managers doing the exact same thing on a regular basis for the same reasons.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from REDSOX-11. Show REDSOX-11's posts

    Re: Fire Francona


    Trust me there are a few people who would go on to tell you if the sox record was 2-160 that it was the players fault they lost 160 games. This bush league manager gets a pass because he was in the right place at the right time and won a WS in 04. When a team is winning a 3 year old could manage it much like 04, but when the team needs guidance he is lost and clueless how to handle most situations. That's my take on it and the longer theo and co keep him the longer this type of gameplay will continue.

    In Response to Fire Francona:
    At what point does Francona actually have to take some responsibilty for his losses? He doesn't manage games- he is perpetually managing the season. Sometimes you have to manage games. He does it in the postseason, but he's the worst game manager in baseball during the regular season. No bunts, no pinch hits, terrible pitching management. Since Schilling left we've looked like a bunch of undisciplined 4th graders out there. I'm beginning to think Schilling was Tito's brain. Starting McDonald in the 3rd game of the year on a team with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Letting Salty hit (he was like 0-10 at the time) in the 7th inning with two men on and 1 out in a 3-1 game, with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Waiting till Lackey had given up 9 runs to put Wake in. Waiting till Dice K had given up 7 runs and let two more get on base before putting Wake in. I could go on and on. All you have to do is watch one game to see moves he misses.
    Posted by Scott8340

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from don444. Show don444's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Fire Francona:
    At what point does Francona actually have to take some responsibilty for his losses? He doesn't manage games- he is perpetually managing the season. Sometimes you have to manage games. He does it in the postseason, but he's the worst game manager in baseball during the regular season. No bunts, no pinch hits, terrible pitching management. Since Schilling left we've looked like a bunch of undisciplined 4th graders out there. I'm beginning to think Schilling was Tito's brain. Starting McDonald in the 3rd game of the year on a team with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Letting Salty hit (he was like 0-10 at the time) in the 7th inning with two men on and 1 out in a 3-1 game, with Drew and Cameron on the bench. Waiting till Lackey had given up 9 runs to put Wake in. Waiting till Dice K had given up 7 runs and let two more get on base before putting Wake in. I could go on and on. All you have to do is watch one game to see moves he misses.
    Posted by Scott8340

    You sound to me has one of those undisciplined 4th graders....Grow up someday !!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    Then look at Maddon. He gets tossed in one of the more classic manager rants in recent memory, and his team responds by putting up 16 runs on us the next night and taking at least the first two games of the series with us. Tito is awful. Like I said earlier, he was better with Schilling. Schilling was Tito's Karl Rove.
    Posted by Scott8340


    Maddon is a very good manager.  I like him a lot.  But before you put him on the pedestal, maybe you can explain why the favored Rays fell short in the 2008 World Series and the 2010 ALDS. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from silversteinsox. Show silversteinsox's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
    In Response to Re: Fire Francona : No rational person does.  This just RSN with their Chicken Little mentality.  Quite frankly, the schtick has gotten really old. 
    Posted by redsoxfan791


    The Chicken Littles represent complainers and know-it-alls. If you go to any Internet forum or read the comments to online articles, you will see that most of the comments are from those types. The majority of RSN keeps their mouth shut or doesn't enjoy reading forums and comments - too much negativity. A good fan can suffer in silence. What does one gain by coming here to complain or to vent?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from swandive. Show swandive's posts

    Re: Fire Francona

    In Response to Re: Fire Francona:
                            Hey Lubcom, I think you've got something there. It goes to having a "feel" for the game, an attribute he never had  in Phila. or in Boston. He can't feel the danger coming, he prays a lot. This is vintage Francona. 
    Posted by eggplants


    GEORGE W. prayed a lot also; nothing good came of that.
    praying doesn't make you smarter; only staying overnight at a HOLIDAY INN will do that.
     
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