First honest report out of spring training

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    Sorry folks.  I did not mean to post and run.  I created the OP at work and came home to find a sweaty basement and hot water heater problems.  Not the way I want to spend a Friday night.

    I don't understand why I am a troll for expressing concern over something that the staff is concerned about.

    To selenium, the "first honest report" line is a bit tongue in cheek, but come on.  Everyone who follows baseball knows that every player shows up in the "Best shape of his career," and such.  Rarely is a guy called out for showing up out of shape.  My guess is that if Doubront had not done so in a previous year, he might not have gotten called out this time.  But after Beer and Chicken Gate and the huge disappointments of 2011 and 2012, and with the attempt to make over the team with high quality guys who have good chemistry and work ethics, Doubront's showing up to camp in poor shape made his lack of good judgement stick out all the more.

    As for the injury part of it.  In 2011 Doubront spent time out for injury and his lack of conditioning was blamed post-fact.  In 2013 he is already an injury risk, as reported in the off-season by Finn and Cafardo, I believe (and on Bleacher Report possibly as well).  Any pitcher who increases his innings from one year to the next as much as Doubront did is considered an injury risk by baseball evaluators.

    Lastly, as for attending the Spring Training games...I can only wish.  My info on this came from the Globe writers.

     

     



    I don't understand why I am a troll for expressing concern over something that the staff is concerned about.


    no worries parhunter U were just being piked

    I'm sure many others shared your disappointment

    he wouldn't be the 1st guy with a  mill $ arm and 10 cent brain

    heard he's not expected to throw until Wednesday....

    I have mixed feelings on the subject

     david wells was one of my favs he had a mill $ arm and 2 cent brain



    tony maz said last night people told him

    rubby de was eye popping

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

     

    I hope this year's Red Sox team can create a positive and winning environment. 

    Remember the 2004 team?  They had fun, played their a**es off, and won. 

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    Back when I firtst came to this forum, some 7 years ago, you could create a Thread about something you read and discuss the meaning/implications.  Now you end up defending the source, or your intent, or even your right to have an opinion about whatever it is you wanted to discuss.

    Very few posters actually addressed my proposed idea.  And I knew I would be perceived by some as overreacting.  Yes, I know that Morales and Aceves are being stretched out as starters.  And I think the Sox need that kind of depth, with Lackey coming off major surgery and Buchholz not yet ever having been able to pitch a full slate of starts.  And perhaps Morales and Aceves would perform admirably for the #5 and #6 starters on this team.

    But if you want to improve the rotation, you have to get a guy who pushes your #4 or #5 guys down a slot or out of the rotation.  I am not convinced Lohse is as good as his 2012 numbers say he is.  But he is a bona fide starter, the best available on the FA market, and will pitch a full season in all likelihood.  To assume Morales or Aceves could pitch 180-200 innings in 2013 is being too optimistic IMO. 

    If the Sox could turn Salty and Doubront into a young LHH LFer, or a bona fide 1B prospect, or a pirtching prospect a couple of years away from ML ready, wouldn't that be enough to off-set the loss of the 2nd round pick?  Depending on the cost of signing Lohse, I would at least consider signing him and trading Doubront. 

    The fact is, I was calling for trading Doubront long before he showed up to camp in poor shape...but that was when I had hopes the Sox would sign two starters--Haren and one other--making Doubront expendable.  Once again, the idea was to trade him before he got hurt.  Now, trading him would be harder, but it would have the added value of sending a strong message to all the pitchers that keeping in shape and taking your conditioning seriously is required on this team. 

    Let's face it...the Sox pitchers have had a recent record of playing in less than optimal physical condition, and during that same time have sustained an almost unprecedented amount of injuries (whether or not that is related to the lack of conditioning is open to debate).

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

     

    I hope this year's Red Sox team can create a positive and winning environment. 

    Remember the 2004 team?  They had fun, played their a**es off, and won. 

     



    Something that Valentine and some of our fans never understood.  You want to have players that want to be at the ballpark.  You want to have players that want to hang out in the clubhouse after the game.  You don't want to have players being questioned about what the manager said yesterday.  You want to encourage comraderie, not have players seeing how quickly they can get to their cars.

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

    I hope this year's Red Sox team can create a positive and winning environment. 

    Remember the 2004 team?  They had fun, played their a**es off, and won. 



    Something that Valentine and some of our fans never understood.  You want to have players that want to be at the ballpark.  You want to have players that want to hang out in the clubhouse after the game.  You don't want to have players being questioned about what the manager said yesterday.  You want to encourage comraderie, not have players seeing how quickly they can get to their cars.



    I agree with you Joebreidey.   :)

    I think Farrell is a manager that the players can trust.  I am not concerned about Farrell's performance when he was managing the Blue Jays. 

     

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    Back when I firtst came to this forum, some 7 years ago, you could create a Thread about something you read and discuss the meaning/implications.  Now you end up defending the source, or your intent, or even your right to have an opinion about whatever it is you wanted to discuss.

    I just asked to see pictures, or a report from say, Pete Abraham.

    Very few posters actually addressed my proposed idea.  And I knew I would be perceived by some as overreacting.  Yes, I know that Morales and Aceves are being stretched out as starters.  And I think the Sox need that kind of depth, with Lackey coming of major surgery and Buchholz not yet ever having been able to pitch a full slate of starts.  And perhaps Morales and Aceves would perform admirably for the #5 and #6 starters on this team.

    I'm not sure what you want.  Morales and Aceves are probably as good as any two BP guys in BB if you need a #6.

    But if you want to improve the rotation, you have to get a guy who pushes your #4 or #5 guys down a slot or out of the rotation.  I am not convinced Lohse is as good as his 2012 numbers say he is.  But he is a bona fide starter, the best available on the FA market, and will pitch a full season in a likelihood.  To assume Morales or Aceves could pitch 180-200 innings in 2013 is being too optimistic IMO. 

    I agree, in theory, that you get your most leverage from replacing a #5 with a #1, but usually when you have a bad #5, say someone with a > 5.00 ERA.  In this case, I think you'd be replacing someone with maybe a 4.50-4.75 with someone that will have a 4.25-4.50.  I think you really need to improve by a full run to make it worthwhile.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    I hope De LaRosa can end up being in the rotation.  I think he has all the tools and desire, whereas Doubront may have all the tools, but apparently lacks the desire (and discipline that accompanies such desire).  But De LaRosa will also not pitch a full slate of starts in 2013. 

    The Sox currently have just two pitchers on the team (Lester and Dempster) who have been able to pitch full seasons in recent years.  They really need a 3rd.  Who do you suggest that to be?  Having passed on other options, I think the Sox should be considering Lohse (even if by all accounts they are denying any such interest).

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Back when I firtst came to this forum, some 7 years ago, you could create a Thread about something you read and discuss the meaning/implications.  Now you end up defending the source, or your intent, or even your right to have an opinion about whatever it is you wanted to discuss.

    I just asked to see pictures, or a report from say, Pete Abraham.

    Very few posters actually addressed my proposed idea.  And I knew I would be perceived by some as overreacting.  Yes, I know that Morales and Aceves are being stretched out as starters.  And I think the Sox need that kind of depth, with Lackey coming of major surgery and Buchholz not yet ever having been able to pitch a full slate of starts.  And perhaps Morales and Aceves would perform admirably for the #5 and #6 starters on this team.

    I'm not sure what you want.  Morales and Aceves are probably as good as any two BP guys in BB if you need a #6.

    But if you want to improve the rotation, you have to get a guy who pushes your #4 or #5 guys down a slot or out of the rotation.  I am not convinced Lohse is as good as his 2012 numbers say he is.  But he is a bona fide starter, the best available on the FA market, and will pitch a full season in a likelihood.  To assume Morales or Aceves could pitch 180-200 innings in 2013 is being too optimistic IMO. 

    I agree, in theory, that you get your most leverage from replacing a #5 with a #1, but usually when you have a bad #5, say someone with a > 5.00 ERA.  In this case, I think you'd be replacing someone with maybe a 4.50-4.75 with someone that will have a 4.25-4.50.  I think you really need to improve by a full run to make it worthwhile.




    I respect your opinion.  And I appreciate the response.  My biggest fear right now is that Doubront/Morales/Aceves end up contributing in the 5.00 era range (which is actually quite an improvement over what the Sox got out of their #5 - 7 starters last year).  And my hope would be that Lohse would provide an ERA around 4.00.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    In response to Triumph-'s comment:

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

     

    I hope De LaRosa can end up being in the rotation.  I think he has all the tools and desire, whereas Doubront may have all the tools, but apparently lacks the desire (and discipline that accompanies such desire).  But De LaRosa will also not pitch a full slate of starts in 2013. 

    The Sox currently have just two pitchers on the team (Lester and Dempster) who have been able to pitch full seasons in recent years.  They really need a 3rd.  Who do you suggest that to be?  Having passed on other options, I think the Sox should be considering Lohse (even if by all accounts they are denying any such interest).

     




    They are not gonna give up that draft pick.




    My thinking is that if they could trade Doubront as part of a package and get a prospect or two, that 2nd round pick would be less of an issue.  I would not just sing Lohse to replace Doubront.  In fact, I would not sign Lohse unless I already had a deal in place involving Doubront.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from OutofTownPATS Fan. Show OutofTownPATS Fan's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to HelloItsMeAgain1's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

     

    OK, why are we assuming he showed up out of shape?  Because he got hurt?  

     



    Space, you been hitting some of Humboldt county's finest?

     

    read mef's post above.

     



    whether or not i may have hit that humboldt sticky, I read mef's post and found no evidence to the effect of Doubront showing up out of shape.  No quotes from anybody there.  No links to any reports.  and, i cant tell from pictures because, in shape or not, red beans and rice never missed Felix.  I just don't understand why we are jumping to this conclusion.

     


    AROUND THE BASES: How precise is the schedule? The bullpen sessions were set for 10:02 a.m., 10:14 a.m. and 10:26 a.m. … Jon Lester said that he believes in leadership by example. He is showing in his actions hustling from station to station and going full speed though the drills. … Felix Doubront reported in poor shape and the staff isn’t happy about it. He had conditioning problems in 2011, too.

     

    Peter Abraham yesterdays update

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    Lohse turns 35 this year and has shown no inidcation he will take a short offer at less than his terms.   If he took a one year or two year deal, things are a little different.  And if the team can get a prospect for Doubront, it goes help replace the draft pick.  However, it does not help with the first round pick, as the team's overall budget for signing picks is drastically reduced by losing the second round money, and that could hamper their ability to sign high-profile clients with lofty demands.

     

    Dealing Doubront is another matter, although what would the Sox realisticaly expect in return?  They really coyuld use a LF, and certanly prospects are always in play.  If they chose to deal him for a LF, what would be a realisitic target worth giving up Doubront for?   There certainly are teams with surplus OF talent that need SPS, and Doubront need not be targetted to a team that hopes to contend, but is there a good match up?  I certainly would not deal him for, say, Carp or Venable, for example...

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    A 25 year old professional athlete should have no problem getting ino shape by the time opening day comes around.   I mean seriously, even if he's been eating eating ho-ho's and watching southpark sitting on a couch for 4 months, odds are he should be able to get back to he same shape he was in last year.

     

    What concerns me more is what this spells for him in the future.  When he hits 30, and if he stays that lazy during the offseason his body will start to break down, he will lose muscle mass etc etc.  it also says something about is work ethic.  I've been a pro athlete and I've trained with and still train pro boxers to this day.  I can't tell you how many of those guys take some time off gain 20 lbs and then get right bak into it.  Thing is, sometimes a little bit of that is a good thing,  but too much of it can be a big problem.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt or now, but if he can't stay healhy or he regresses this year I'll be at the front the not-fan line requesting him shipped out of town......but for now let's see how this evolves.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    I hope De LaRosa can end up being in the rotation.  I think he has all the tools and desire, whereas Doubront may have all the tools, but apparently lacks the desire (and discipline that accompanies such desire).  But De LaRosa will also not pitch a full slate of starts in 2013. 

    The Sox currently have just two pitchers on the team (Lester and Dempster) who have been able to pitch full seasons in recent years.  They really need a 3rd.  Who do you suggest that to be?  Having passed on other options, I think the Sox should be considering Lohse (even if by all accounts they are denying any such interest).




    Doubrant isn't a skinny guy. Neither is Lester. Are you worried about Lester not being in shape? Lackey will pitch 200 innings this year. He has shown he can pitch in tons of pain and he wants to prove something.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    In response to selenium-'s comment:

    Tongue-in-Cheek opening posts could be followed with a :

    Wink, Wink

    ;) Emoticon meaning just fooling, Wink Wink

    Or do what Pinstripezac does which is to highlight BS in the color brown.

     

    By doing any of the above, posters who want serious discussion can bypass the thread and those who want to be entertained by the catfight, debate, pizzing contest can remain.




    Blah blah blah, blah blah blah, drivel drivel drivel. Yawn.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    Doubrant isn't a skinny guy. Neither is Lester. Are you worried about Lester not being in shape? Lackey will pitch 200 innings this year. He has shown he can pitch in tons of pain and he wants to prove something.

     

    As I explained, I was already worried about Doubront being at high risk for injury.  This has to do with the % increase of innings pitched between 2011 and 2012.  Baseball experts have worked out a safe increase, and pitchers above that (and Doubront is well above that) are at increased risk for injury.  Wish I could cite the numbers, but off the top of my head I cannot.  So it is unlikely that he will be able to start 30-32 games in 2013.

    On top of that, he shows up to ST out of shape for the second time in three years.  The first time he did so, he spent the year injured and ineffective.  So he rededicated himself, and came into camp in 2012 in shape and ready to go.  He had a good year, as a result.  Lesson learned?  Well, no.  He comes to camp in 2013 out of shape, suffers some shoulder weakness and is now set back a week or so from the rest.

    He is not the dependable #4 or even #5 that many are counting on, from the looks of it.  I hope I am wrong, but history is on my side.  As for Lackey, he may pitch 200 innings.  I hope he will pitch 200 innings.  But is that realistic?  He pitched exactly 0 innings in 2012, and had an injury-plagued shortened season the year prior.  I think 160 or so innings is a realistic expectation.  Buchholz, well again, I hope he finally pitches 200 innings.  I think he is capable.  But then, he has never been able to do that...ever.  So, the Sox have two guys in their rotation that can be counted on (as much as anything can be counted on in sports) to pitch 200 innings.

    That is why Ben C has built up his bullpen, rightfully so.  But I think the Sox could use a 200 inning guy in their rotation.  I would rather it be a guy who has recently been able to pitch with a sub 3.50 era, if one is available, rather than a Joe Blanton type, where his ERA is almost certainly a whole run highger.  But even a Blanton type would be useful, IMO.  There is such a guy out there.  Don't know what his terms would be.  To me, a guaranteed 3 or 4-year deal would be too much.  But a two-year with 3 and 4 year options would not be.  I just think the Sox should be exploring the possiblity if they really want to compete in 2013.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: First honest report out of spring training

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    Doubrant isn't a skinny guy. Neither is Lester. Are you worried about Lester not being in shape? Lackey will pitch 200 innings this year. He has shown he can pitch in tons of pain and he wants to prove something.

     

    As I explained, I was already worried about Doubront being at high risk for injury.  This has to do with the % increase of innings pitched between 2011 and 2012.  Baseball experts have worked out a safe increase, and pitchers above that (and Doubront is well above that) are at increased risk for injury.  Wish I could cite the numbers, but off the top of my head I cannot.  So it is unlikely that he will be able to start 30-32 games in 2013.

    On top of that, he shows up to ST out of shape for the second time in three years.  The first time he did so, he spent the year injured and ineffective.  So he rededicated himself, and came into camp in 2012 in shape and ready to go.  He had a good year, as a result.  Lesson learned?  Well, no.  He comes to camp in 2013 out of shape, suffers some shoulder weakness and is now set back a week or so from the rest.

    He is not the dependable #4 or even #5 that many are counting on, from the looks of it.  I hope I am wrong, but history is on my side.  As for Lackey, he may pitch 200 innings.  I hope he will pitch 200 innings.  But is that realistic?  He pitched exactly 0 innings in 2012, and had an injury-plagued shortened season the year prior.  I think 160 or so innings is a realistic expectation.  Buchholz, well again, I hope he finally pitches 200 innings.  I think he is capable.  But then, he has never been able to do that...ever.  So, the Sox have two guys in their rotation that can be counted on (as much as anything can be counted on in sports) to pitch 200 innings.

    That is why Ben C has built up his bullpen, rightfully so.  But I think the Sox could use a 200 inning guy in their rotation.  I would rather it be a guy who has recently been able to pitch with a sub 3.50 era, if one is available, rather than a Joe Blanton type, where his ERA is almost certainly a whole run highger.  But even a Blanton type would be useful, IMO.  There is such a guy out there.  Don't know what his terms would be.  To me, a guaranteed 3 or 4-year deal would be too much.  But a two-year with 3 and 4 year options would not be.  I just think the Sox should be exploring the possiblity if they really want to compete in 2013.



    Look up the Verducci effect in google. And FWIW there's a lot of debate about whether it's a real, legitimate issue. That being said I think it is worrisome that Doubront has shown up to camp out of shape for the second time in 3 years. It speaks to the need for a veteran leader for the pitching staff. I'm not sure if it's worrisome enough to warrant going out and signing Lohse though. Losing the draft pick is not as much of a problem as losing the money associated with the pick. Although it is worth noting that the Sox did select Jackie Bradley Jr. at about the position where their second round pick should fall this year. Also between Aceves, Morales, Wright, Tazawa, Webster and RDLR we should have some decent options to fill in in the rotation without counting on Cook and Dice-K type pitchers.

     

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