For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    "I just think you are being unfair to Crawford, and undervaluing AGon's contribution to this team."

    I won't be as snarky with you as I was with a couple others who were ridiculing those who supported this trade because you seem like you really want to have a good discourse here. 

    Had Crawford not needed T John surgery perhaps a different argument could be made there, but at best he was severely overpaid to begin with. He did not seem comfortable on this team either, it seems the pressure of Boston and his big contract didn't sit well with him. Yes he did show flashes but with the best case scenario being overpaid and the more likely scenario being severe underperformance he had to go in this one chance to do it. I thought he had a great work ethic and in that sense fit in well here. Problem is for his age, his speed-oriented game just didn't bode well. It's too bad the contract was so huge, otherwise it could have been a different conversation. 

    AGon is another matter, also overpaid given his difficulties hitting for power, but if he had been the only huge contract on this team you could have made a very good argument for keeping him. He didn't seem to come up big in big situations but he was certainly playing well. On the other hand he's another guy who seemed miserable here. I was uncomfortable as well with his central role in the Valentine revolt and some of the excuses he came up with for losing. If you buy into the "rotten clubhouse" concept, which I do, then he played a role in that and it's one more reason for moving him. If you don't buy into that, then it becomes more of a debate, and again, trading him straight up would make that debate tougher, but the chance to move Beckett and Crawford was too great an opportunity. 

    Of course it all depends on what the Sox do with their newfound flexibility. There is rarely a trade where you know right away who won and who lost. Usually you have to see how it plays out. I think the Sox management realizes they signed huge deals to appease a fan base that wanted big names and that they need to sign deals that have more sanity and less downside. But: if they interpret that to mean we are now a small market team than your worst fears and mine will be realized. 

    Time will tell
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    In Response to Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....:
    [QUOTE]I just used them as an example of how $60M could be spent this winter. I'd much prefer making some trades and signing mid-level guys.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    I particularly like the latter. Signing people to small contracts gives you flexibility. If they don't work out you can trade or release them without staying up all night fretting over the $$.
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    In Response to Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings.... : You are probably right. This team is most likely 2-3 years away from contending. Such is the extent of the damage Epstein wreaked upon the franchise. The trade undid two of his mistakes and undid one that was decent (Agon was not being underpaid to be here; he may have been a little overpaid but never fit in). There is still the Lackey situation to deal with, and there is the neglect of the demise of our pitching quality that has been going on since 2008 that was never adequately addressed too. Ortiz will need to be replaced sooner or later. In summary, Epstein did such damage to this team that major rebuilding is going to be necessary. IF Cherington is up to the task (and I have my reservations since he was trained by Epstein) then it will almost certainly be at least two years before we have a "good" team again. Its going to take time, but at least its gotten started.
    Posted by pumpsie-green[/QUOTE]

    And just how the hell do you know that? Do you have some inside information that you can share with us? All indications were that he was beloved by his teammates and a great clubhouse guy. You are making excuses for ben getting rid of him.
    You simply go along with the majority of boneheads on this forum who are absolutely clueless. You think he didn't fit in. Right. Of course, he never really produced the power that we wanted either, correct. All in all, he was just a huge disappointment, good riddance!

    I swear, it's amazing how so many here are so confident that management knows exactly what they are doing, when it was management that put us in this mess to begin with. They forget that Ben was assistant GM to Theo, yet Ben knows what he is doing? All he's done is make matters worse. He's the BHO of the Red Sox.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    The Red Sox will have to be competitive next season or their sell out streak may end
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    Cherringotn on WEEI:  the trade was made to make them a better team going forward. Money will be put back into the team and expects the Red Sox to eventually have one of the highest payrolls in MLB. Sounded like he was going after Josh Hamilton 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    If Ben had gotten Gould, Z. Lee, Webster and De LaRosa, then I would say that Gonzo will be missed, but that the Sox had gotten in return exactly what this team needs going forward.  I fully expect all 4 players the Dodgers got to be positive contributors to their team in the future, and for this season will not be suprised to see Beckett have a strong 5 or 6 starts, while AGon helps them overcome the SF Giants.  Down the line I think AGon will be the best bat in their lineup, and along with his GG defense and Mexican-American Heritage become their biggest draw as well.  As for Carl Crawford, I hope he fits in right away with the Dodgers, he certainly deserves it.  He was treated very poorly here, and played hurt, just like so many fans call for.  I think the Dodgers targeted AGon as their #1 object of desire (just as Theo did once he lost out on Teixeira) and money was no issue.  Ben should have held out for at least Zach Lee and if not, stuck the Dodgers with Beckett's contract and said, "welcome to the Major Leagues, Magic."

    Alibi is right again.  Many here have conferred great knowledge and ability on Ben C and Larry L.  I have trouble seeing how this assumption (that they knew exactly what they were doing and will spend the saved money wisely) is warranted.  I hope I am wrong, I am a die hard fan after all.  But this trade opens up three big holes to fill and did not land the Sox even one of the top two pitching prospects (Gould and Lee) in the Dodgers system.  Instead they settled for a TJ reclamation who may end up being nothing more than another reliever who can hit 97 on his fastball (a la Tazawa, Morales, Bard, Aceves, Padilla, Miller and Albers when he was here even).  Got enough of those.  And in Webster, they have a guy whose AA era is decent but whose WHIP is unimpressive due to control issues.  The good news is he is really young; but that also means he is at least 2, probably more like 4 years away from contributing and his ceiling is Derek Lowe (not Pedro or Schilling or Clemens).  Reminds me of Casey Kelly.

    Sorry if I cannot get too excited over these two (and the other throw-ins) and question whether Ben got the deal he should have.  This team and its ownership have a pretty crappy record over the last 8 years when it comes to trades and signings.  And posters here want to rewrite facts about AGon.  If clubhouse cancer is the issue, then Pedroia should be gone, too.  Back in spring.  But claiming AGon didn't come up big in the clutch?  He has the best stats in this area for ANY of the Sox hitters over the last two seasons.  If he didn't want to be here and asked to be traded, then yeah, he had to go.  But don't try to rewrite or ignore his value to this lineup for the almost two years he was here. And don't sell him cheap. They should have gotten more.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    In the great scheme of things, does it really matter whether the RS spend 90M or 190M on payroll, as long as they put the best players on the field? I suppose it does if you are the one signing paychecks, but really, what impact does this have on the fans?
    I suppose you could argue that the money saved can be used to lower ticket prices or concessions, or maybe even used to go after some coveted FA's (although 2013 is not looking good on the FA front).
    But then we will be in the same boat.
    I was never a fan of the Crawford signing, and have really thought that Beckett was a selfish narcissist. However, CC started tp show signs of his Tampa days and Beckett just needed someone to take him to the woodshed. If he really had to be moved, the RS had other options than offering up AG just to get rid of him, even if it meant eating payroll, if he was really that much of a cancer.

    Management, by keeping some of Francona's staff, put the players in the position of choosing sides. Maybe they thought by keeping some around they would at least try to do well, and not completely undermine BV. This season was a recipe for disaster from the start, and the injuries made matters worse.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    Alibi, how wise you are.  Have you been taking Yoda pills?  I am in complete agreement with you on this.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    In Response to Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings.... : I just think you are being unfair to Crawford, and undervaluing AGon's contribution to this team.  I actually like the idea of shedding big money/long-term deals.  And agree with you that just turning those around to enter into more is a) foolish, and b) not going to happen.  And I am also all for making trades and signing some affordable guys who play specific roles on the team.  That is what the Sox did in 2004 and it worked.  IMHO, The Sox should trade Ells, Salty, Iglesias, Padilla, Aceves (Lackey, if possible) and almost any MiL position player not names Brentz, Bradley, Marrero or Bogaerts.  And they should sign Ross (and possibly Napoli if Salty is traded) if the money is reasonable, along with a decent utility guy for the IF. Don't know what they will do about 1B.  Hate to see them spend money here since there is not much available and I am not sure Gomez is up to the task glove-wise. But all of those trades are redundant pieces that do not (IMO) hurt the ML roster and have built-in replacements. What should they get in return?  Pitching, pitching and more pitching, especially of the young (22 and under) kind.  Then, by 2014 or 2015 they should have all the pieces for a championship caliber team.
    Posted by parhunter55[/QUOTE]

    Until last year, Napoli was one of the worst CERA catchers in MLB 9when compared to his team's other catcher).

    He can DH and play 1B and be a 3rd string catcher, but I wouldn't count on him to get the best out of our staff if he is the Ft catcher.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    I was only thinking of Napoli as a backup to Lavarnway.
     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    So, you want a .260 (.860 OPS) player at $13-15M a year to play DH, some 1B and back-up catcher?

    I'd rather have Papi at DH or trade for Morneau as a bride to Travis Shaw or next year's FA 1Bman.
     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    Morneau doesn't catch or hit well from both sides. He costs 2 million more and wil cost more in trade. Not a fit and value, at all.

    huh?

    Morneau:  13:$14M
    VMart: 13:$13M, 14:$12M
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheRealPedroCiriaco. Show TheRealPedroCiriaco's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    In Response to Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings.... : Chances are you cannot get those three for $60 million, first of all.  And second, the Sox would not be any better with those three.  Grienke would not be any better than Beckett in this environment.  Hamilton might provide more power and the same average as Gonzalez, and he might revert to his addictive ways.  Tough to say, really, but Gonzalez was a guaranteed .300 hitter who drove in runs and played GG defense at firts.  No one like that is on their way or even on the horizon.  So unless you think Napoli is some difference maker, I do not see where you have improved the pitching, which is what this team needs and has for the last 5 years, really.  If Ben could have done that while keeping Crawford and AGon, then he should have.  They were not the reason this franchise continues to lose more games than it wins.  And Hamilton, Grienke and Napoli are not the solution, either. However, what you said in the last part of your post is one of the saving graces of this trade.  And let's all keep our fingers crossed on Webster and De LaRosa.  If either develops into a top end of the rotation starter, then your waiting for the right guy to come along plan will be fruitful.  But that is 2 or 3 years down the road.  This team is not heading to the playoffs any time sooner, IMO.
    Posted by parhunter55[/QUOTE]

    Adrian Gonzalez was a career .288 hitter before he came to Boston, and had hit below .280 the two seasons before we got him. How is he a lock to hit .300? Does anyone proofread?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    In Response to Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings.... : Adrian Gonzalez was a career .288 hitter before he came to Boston, and had hit below .280 the two seasons before we got him. How is he a lock to hit .300? Does anyone proofread?
    Posted by TheRealPedroCiriaco[/QUOTE]

    Yes, Fenway gave him more hits, but less HRs. He may easily revert to his SD numbers in spacious LA.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: For those that think the money saved will be a great boom to signing FA and other signings....

    Gonzalez correctly explained his dilemma. I don't see why that's a concern for the AGON haters in here. He most surely lost some HRs because of he's a line drive hitter who hit many balls that were high off the Monster. Fred Lynn lost HRs too. There were a few lefties that masterfully hit dingers over the Monster from the leftside, but for the most part really it's always been lefties not reaching high HR numbers. That's why it was always the probability that Teddy Ballgame would have had amazing HR numbers at Yankee Stadium (dead pull hitter) and Dimaggio and his big swing would have had monster HR numbers at Fenway. Lefties can hit for average at Fenway, but the power is always about the righty with the big towering swing. Tony Armas loved Fenway. Petrocelli loved Fenway. Rice loved Fenway. Bay loved Fenway. Esasky loved Fenway. Dewey. Cody Ross is the most recent example of a guy relishing this park for power. Makes Salty's 21 HR more of an outstanding feat since he's been doing it mostly with the drives to center/right. Some to left I think, but only a few.
     

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