Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    Why do you prefer to stir up a good discussion that is speculative and anti- Red Sox? It seems to be a pattern and obsession with you.  I have read your posts for the last two weeks and you don't seem to be  a Red Sox fan at all. If you are a Red Sox fan and they are in the midst of a horrendous slump then why would you wish to bash them? Isn't that like kicking a man that you just punched out?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    Why do you prefer to stir up a good discussion that is speculative and anti- Red Sox? It seems to be a pattern and obsession with you.  I have read your posts for the last two weeks and you don't seem to be  a Red Sox fan at all. If you are a Red Sox fan and they are in the midst of a horrendous slump then why would you wish to bash them? Isn't that like kicking a man that you just punched out?
    Posted by BeaconHill19


    Try reading more of my posts because you are way off base.  I give credit, root for our team and don't mind discussing the negative which seems to hurt your feelings.  It's what an open forum is for, if you can't read or take the good and the bad like I said this may not be your cup of tea sorry.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    BS.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    So when they went 80-41 they weren't pampered brats and now they are falling apart so it's the way they are spoiled in the clubhouse. I learn more and more every day... thanks Sox fans. I love how "fans" turn on everyone and make their analysis fit to the flavor of the day.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    I think these are the only statements that may have some merit.  I don't believe the other stuff like comparing us to Tampa, or the 200 inning statements etc.

    Epstein, in his ninth season as the Boston GM, has prided himself on investing time and money in player development. For the most part, he has a strong track record in that area. The list of homegrown Red Sox contributors is indeed long: Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Kevin Youkilis, Jed Lowrie, Jon Lester, Jonathan Papelbon and Daniel Bard. That’s one reason Epstein is of such interest to the Chicago Cubs, currently engaged in their high-profile GM search.

    But look at that list again. Notice anything missing?

    Are the Red Sox making mistakes in scouting and player development? Are they overrating their own players and/or over hyping them to the media? Or is the mere act of developing a starting pitcher in today’s American League East a fool’s errand?

    A nine year comparison among all the GM's, where they placed in the draft, who they chose and their success rate in developing starting pitchers would be the best way to really get a better feel.  I do feel Theo has had good success with drafting/developing positional and relief pitchers but starters?  Either way the article does leave room for a debate.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    You can pu Craze into your TROLL / IGNORE List. It is obvious.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    You can pu Craze into your TROLL / IGNORE List. It is obvious.
    Posted by BeaconHill19


    Beacon, who's trying to stir up trouble?  I think you may have a hard time finding recruits to put me on ignore just because you can't seem to handle reading any negativity about our team.  You won't find any forum where fans only praise their team but good luck.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    I like listening to Gammons, unsure why people here think its a bad thing that he loves the Sox. His Sunday Globe Baseball Notes were a much better read than whatever the heck they do now.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : He was traded "Masterson" for a positional player "Victor" a move that should have been addressed at least two or three years prior.  If we had gone after a catcher like Salty when we should have things could be different. Too little too late!
    Posted by craze4sox
    First off as others pointed out the RS did take a run at Salty after the 2008 season and the asking price was very high.

    Second the RS at that deadline were trying to address more than the catcher spot. Mike Lowell's hip was in terrible shape and Vmart's appeal aside from being the second best hitting catcher in the game was he could play first. In fact his time was pretty even split between 1st and C.

    And further Epstein was looking to get the team over the hump and into the post season and was far from stuck on Vmart as the only option. The RS took runs at AGon, King Felix and Halladay as well. Each would have required packages way bigger than Justin Masterson. So they ended up with the VMart deal.

    Most of all the wasn't designed to address just catcher. They still may have done Martinez if they had a young catcher and moved Youk to third because Lowell's made it impossible for him to play every day.  



     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : Try reading more of my posts because you are way off base.  I give credit, root for our team and don't mind discussing the negative which seems to hurt your feelings.  It's what an open forum is for, if you can't read or take the good and the bad like I said this may not be your cup of tea sorry.
    Posted by craze4sox



    craze do not engage with him, he treats everyone the same.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo

    fivekatz I would ad that there was zero expectation Lackey would be this pathetic, and that Dice-K got injured (this happens to most pitchers at some point).... other than debating wether Wake should have been brought back this staff should be much better. Calling Theo out on the staff is not fair, it should be performing at a respectable level.

    I will say again that regardless of health Tito is mismanaging the hell out of the starters, treating them like angels.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : craze do not engage with him, he treats everyone the same.
    Posted by BurritoT


    Gotcha Burrito thanks
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from WilcyMoore. Show WilcyMoore's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    "I do feel Theo has had good success with drafting/developing positional players and relief pitchers but starters?"  That's certainly worth examining and objectively discussing.  I will start with the false notion that Epstein is responsible for Jon Lester.  He had nothing to do with the draft in 2002 when the Sox GM was named Mike Port.  Epstein's resume begins in 2003 and here is the list of over 20 pitchers whom he has GM drafted in the 1st 4 rounds or signed as an amateur free agen between 2003 and 2008:

    2003 - Abe Alvarez (2), William Vaughan (3) and Jonathan Papelbon (4)
    2004 - Andrew Dobies (3) and Tommy Hottovy (4))
    2005 - Clay Buchholz (1) Craig Hansen (1), Michael Bowden (1), William Blue (4)
    2006 - Daniel Bard (1), Caleb Clay (1), Kristofer Johnson (1), Justin Masterson (2) and Bryson Cox (3)
    2007 - Nicholas Hagadone (Comp A), Chris Province (3) and Will Middleton (3)
    2008 - Casey Kelly (1), Bryan Price (Comp A), Stephen Fife (3) and Kyle Weiland (3)
    2008 - Junichi Tazawa signed as amateur free agent

    This is his "real" resume with respect to drafting pitchers and it is worth noting that current bullpen stalwarts Papelbon and Bard were both drafted as starting pitchers and ultimately converted to relievers.  2005 first round pick and the highest paid draft pick in team history was in fact a reliever named Craig Hansen who is no longer in baseball.  When you review the list only a handful of names emerge as talented major leaguers and those are Buchholz (his best starter), Masterson who is in Cleveland, Bard and Papelbon (converted relievers).  Many of the names are not even vaguely familiar although guys like Alvarez, Hottovy, Bowden, Weiland and Tazawa have had a cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee. 

    It's pretty pathetic and pales in comparison to a number of teams during the same timeframe including the Rays" starters and Yankees combination of starters, relievers and amateur free agents obviously.  In the case of the latter, few know that all-star, David Robertson, for example, was a 16th round draft pick.  Epstein does get full and deserved credit for drafting and developing Ellsbury and Pedroia, but beyond those 2, David Murphy is probably the next in line among guys who are currently productive major league position players. 

    The notion that his real strength is drafting and developing young talent is clearly grossly exaggerated.  He has not done all that much over the past 6 years and certainly not nearly as much as many of his peers.  Those are the facts and one could make a case that he impeded Kevin Youkilis' path to becoming an everyday major leaguer by at least three years.  He probably could have been quite a contributor during that timeframe and was instead a human yoyo between Pawtucket and Boston. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from playball01. Show playball01's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    Why am I responding to this thread?

    WHY, to show certain friends that the WARDEN is stil alive!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    "I do feel Theo has had good success with drafting/developing positional players and relief pitchers but starters?"  That's certainly worth examining and objectively discussing.  I will start with the false notion that Epstein is responsible for Jon Lester.  He had nothing to do with the draft in 2002 when the Sox GM was named Mike Port.  Epstein's resume begins in 2003 and here is the list of over 20 pitchers whom he has GM drafted in the 1st 4 rounds or signed as an amateur free agen between 2003 and 2008: 2003 - Abe Alvarez (2), William Vaughan (3) and Jonathan Papelbon (4) 2004 - Andrew Dobies (3) and Tommy Hottovy (4)) 2005 - Clay Buchholz (1) Craig Hansen (1), Michael Bowden (1), William Blue (4) 2006 - Daniel Bard (1), Caleb Clay (1), Kristofer Johnson (1), Justin Masterson (2) and Bryson Cox (3) 2007 - Nicholas Hagadone (Comp A), Chris Province (3) and Will Middleton (3) 2008 - Casey Kelly (1), Bryan Price (Comp A), Stephen Fife (3) and Kyle Weiland (3) 2008 - Junichi Tazawa signed as amateur free agent This is his "real" resume with respect to drafting pitchers and it is worth noting that current bullpen stalwarts Papelbon and Bard were both drafted as starting pitchers and ultimately converted to relievers.  2005 first round pick and the highest paid draft pick in team history was in fact a reliever named Craig Hansen who is no longer in baseball.  When you review the list only a handful of names emerge as talented major leaguers and those are Buchholz (his best starter), Masterson who is in Cleveland, Bard and Papelbon (converted relievers).  Many of the names are not even vaguely familiar although guys like Alvarez, Hottovy, Bowden, Weiland and Tazawa have had a cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee.  It's pretty pathetic and pales in comparison to a number of teams during the same timeframe including the Rays" starters and Yankees combination of starters, relievers and amateur free agents obviously.  In the case of the latter, few know that all-star, David Robertson, for example, was a 16th round draft pick.  Epstein does get full and deserved credit for drafting and developing Ellsbury and Pedroia, but beyond those 2, David Murphy is probably the next in line among guys who are currently productive major league position players.  The notion that his real strength is drafting and developing young talent is clearly grossly exaggerated.  He has not done all that much over the past 6 years and certainly not nearly as much as many of his peers.  Those are the facts and one could make a case that he impeded Kevin Youkilis' path to becoming an everyday major leaguer by at least three years.  He probably could have been quite a contributor during that timeframe and was instead a human yoyo between Pawtucket and Boston. 
    Posted by WilcyMoore


    Wilcy, the article is targeting starters who were drafted, developed and eventually had a successful major league career.  We know there have been many relievers.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    Yeah, it's Theo's fault that Dice-K needed Tommy John surgery, Buch has a hair line fracture in his back, and Lackey is being terrible. It's all Theo's fault.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover


    theo's fault signing lackey to a very big contract. theo's fault not finding another else after dice-k's last season. theo's fault not finding additional help and thinking that wake still has a lot to bring to the table. theo's fault overvaluing his young arms.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProudAngelFan. Show ProudAngelFan's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : Beacon, no disrespect intended but looking at how long you have been here this is a strange statement.  So who are you really?  It's an article period.  It has some merit which makes for a good discussion both pro and con towards Theo.  If you can't handle discussions about our struggling pitching maybe this isn't the place for you. 
    Posted by craze4sox


    Craze you are my type of fan. You tell it like it is (bad and good). As an Angel fan, I can honestly say I am extremely happy that you guys now have to deal with Lackey. Mr. Lackey thanks for taking the Boston deal. Talk about deals gone sour, we have our own crazy deal with Vernon Wells, and after Weaver, Haren and Santana our pitching has more than likey taken us out of the post season. Good luck to you Boston fans!!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from WilcyMoore. Show WilcyMoore's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : Wilcy, the article is targeting starters who were drafted, developed and eventually had a successful major league career.  We know there have been many relievers.
    Posted by craze4sox
      I understand the focus of the article was the absence of quality starting pitching depth currently on the 2011 Red Sox, but there were references to other aspects of the GM's tenure that were  misrepresented, exaggerated or factually flawed.  My discussion was intended to cover all of the bases as it were and give fans a comprehensive, accurate and objective summary and eliminate misconceptions.  My feeble attempt to "tell it like it is" is certainly worthy of dissection. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" :   I understand the focus of the article was the absence of quality starting pitching depth currently on the 2011 Red Sox, but there were references to other aspects of the GM's tenure that were  misrepresented, exaggerated or factually flawed.  My discussion was intended to cover all of the bases as it were and give fans a comprehensive, accurate and objective summary and eliminate misconceptions.  My feeble attempt to "tell it like it is" is certainly worthy of dissection. 
    Posted by WilcyMoore


    Understood
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    "If you are a Red Sox fan and they are in the midst of a horrendous slump then why would you wish to bash them?"

    Gotta disagree with you here on craze4sox...unlike you I have been reading his stuff all summer and while I don't always agree and find some stuff a bit more negative than I tend to go I think it's absolutely clear he is a fan here to have baseball discussions. 

    Echo, you seem to be under the impression that what is said in this forum has some impact on what happens to the team on the field. If that was the case, then bashing the Sox would be unethical. But since that is not only not the case, but a ludicrous idea, then anything is fair game here. My issue with negative people here are those who literally seem to want the Sox to lose to either reinforce some kind of need to wallow or who need to be proven right by the Sox failing or who naively and ignorantly feel that losing is better for the franchise. Craze4sox doesn't meet any of those criteria and I enjoy his interesting and passionate baseball contributions. I'd be much more likely to put you on ignore than craze4sox.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : Craze it aint that hard to grasp.  The theory that he has faced tougher batters is false.  The numbers don't lie.   Over his entire year all the batters he has faced are added up and the total is what it is.  Counterintuitive I know but still true.
    Posted by tom-uk


    That's right Tom. Numbers don't lie. But how they are stated can skew the meaning of them. Hitting numbers against Lackey or any pitcher are reflective of talent level and venue. And until a breakdown is made, there's no definitive conclusion. I tried to get this across to you when we discussed it on the REALISTIC thread.

    The RedSox were in their Juggernaut offense from 2003 to the present.
    Some years they hit over .300 as a team in Fenway. Over this 8-year period,
    they hit .243 in Safeco and .255 in Oakland.

    Data not broken down can be very misleading.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from massillon8. Show massillon8's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    How could they call him the Boy Blunder, nobody knows Shortstops like Theo, Nobody.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jozee76. Show jozee76's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    The Boston media are puppets for Theo and anything he's putting out. Zone ratings, suddenly became the rage, when he wanted to justify not signing JBay, and moving Cameroid to CF and Ells to LF. His signings of Lackey, DiceK and Crawful, were greeted as if he were Jesus returning to earth. That article points out that the Sox have ONE 200 inning pitcher developed under this regime. The last right handed hitter who hit 30-100 was Nomar, which was under the Duquette era. This group went after unlimited lefty hitters until last draft, when they signed Brentz. No legitimate power hitters developed at all. Ells is having a career year, and may be the best player developed by Theo's team . That remains to be seen. Youk was also a Duquette era signee. Theo has taken the lion's share for the 2004 and 2007 World Series. It follows that he should be held accountable for the failures, also.
    Posted by tbrod

    Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    The team has carved a "Yankee" like identity since 2004.  They have had success but the move from Red Sox fans to Red Sox nation seems to have changed the team's persona. This year's inflated payroll reflects the overeaching and it has sunk us this year. Hopefully now we can back on course and add talent that helps us play better as a team  Theo has done a very bad job this year and last year was terrible year for him as well.  I think his leaving is essential as his throwing money at talent that does not fit the team needs and is weighing on the Red Sox future.

    Francona seems too affable for what needs to be done so he does not fit the bill either.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    The team has carved a "Yankee" like identity since 2004.  They have had success but the move from Red Sox fans to Red Sox nation seems to have changed the team's persona. This year's inflated payroll reflects the overeaching and it has sunk us this year. Hopefully now we can back on course and add talent that helps us play better as a team  Theo has done a very bad job this year and last year was terrible year for him as well.  I think his leaving is essential as his throwing money at talent that does not fit the team needs and is weighing on the Red Sox future. Francona seems too affable for what needs to be done so he does not fit the bill either.
    Posted by concord27


    I agree there are serious issues to address.  Its work in progress as usual but what an eye opener its been to see areas some felt were our strengths go completely south.  Our health has to be a primary concern along with pitching and I wouldn't rule our some type of management move if we miss the PS.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share