Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    we will make this post in YANKEE BLUE to emphasize
    that the YANKEE farm system has created more
    potential than the over-rated sox system.
    IVAN NOVA, JESUS MONTERO, DAVID ROBERT-
    SON, JOBA CHAMBERLAIN, BOONE LOGAN,
    EDUARDO NUNEZ, BRETT GARDNER, HECTOR
    NOESI, etc. Also, the Yankees make smarter
    gets....CURTIS GRANDERSON, MARK TEIXEIRA,
    ERIC CHAVEZ, FREDDY GARCIA, COREY WADE,
    ANDREW JONES...RUSSELL MARTIN....
    Epstein has sunk the Sox with the Crawford
    trade, the Lackey trade, the Drew trade, and the
    Bedard trade. The bullpen , with the exception of
    Aceves is shot , and we have no arms at all in the
    minors. Doubront, Tazawa and Bowden are really
    AAA scrubs...boys sent in to do a man's work.
    Youkilis is beaten up and through as a marquee
    hitter. Ortiz is getting older, and Reddick can't
    really cut it. The outlook for 2012 is worse than
    you think, because the club is saddled with bad
    and expensive contracts. We need a new third
    baseman, a new right fielder, another catcher,
    and some young blood. Lavarnway, Middlebrooks
    Ranaudo, and Kalish will not get a chance because
    Terry and Theo refuse to play youngsters until
    their backs are against a wall. Well...folks, that
    time has come and the SOX have capitulated,
    after a season where a lot of "experts" picked
    them to go all the way. {to the toilet]
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tjwoods. Show tjwoods's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    The article is worth reading and makes a compelling argument. I can't argue with it.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from WilcyMoore. Show WilcyMoore's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    Epstein and Francona are joined at the hip based on the tremendous cache that winning championships perpetuates.   As far as a "Yankee like identity" referring to their wanton and often irresponsible spending which is a phenomena of this decade, it has worked twice in the Sox favor when there were huge payroll differentials between them and the 2004 Cards and especially the 2007 Rockies. 

    The Yankees have tried to buy championships year in and year out over the past decade deploying their seemingly unlimited financial resources to purchase the best talent available from year to year.  They have only succeeded once and that was in 2009.  The Sox bought 2 championsips during the same timeframe one of which was miraculous under the circumstances and the other which was predictable.   This is really more of a transformation of the sport from competition to entertainment and the great game is not what it once was.

    Hard for some to believe perhaps, but during the previous century the game of baseball was mostly played on a "relatively" equal playing field with the Yankees winning championships without outspending the opposing teams and the Sox and other teams often outspending them without achieving similar results.      
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]The Boston media are puppets for Theo and anything he's putting out. Zone ratings, suddenly became the rage, when he wanted to justify not signing JBay, and moving Cameroid to CF and Ells to LF. His signings of Lackey, DiceK and Crawful, were greeted as if he were Jesus returning to earth. That article points out that the Sox have ONE 200 inning pitcher developed under this regime. The last right handed hitter who hit 30-100 was Nomar, which was under the Duquette era. This group went after unlimited lefty hitters until last draft, when they signed Brentz. No legitimate power hitters developed at all. Ells is having a career year, and may be the best player developed by Theo's team . That remains to be seen. Youk was also a Duquette era signee. Theo has taken the lion's share for the 2004 and 2007 World Series. It follows that he should be held accountable for the failures, also.
    Posted by tbrod[/QUOTE]

    He should be held accountable for his failures. for sure.  Although at some point the player is also accountable.

    However, at some point the defintions of failure lose sight of the target.

    The Sox won two World Series.  Yes, they did not develop a right-handed 30-100 hitter and have had limited number of 200IP pitchers.

    So... how many other teams have done a better job of that, and how many World Series did it get them?  The big picture is winning, right?  Not making sure we have the approved pieces in place.  "One right-handed power bat.  Check.  200 IP pitcher.  Check.  Lefty specialist.  Check."   Sorry, there is no magic formula.

    Also, I done think your story is correct on why Ellsbury moved to LF.  Bay, after all, did fail a physical, whether you want to believe it or have already decided to use your predetermined reasons that actually don't even make sense.  Zone Ratings? When the staff employs the inventor of the competing +/- system?

    And when you consider how Bay has done the past two years, you might consider not bringing him back as a success under this regime.

    And while you clearly devalue defense, bear in mind, baseball minds move in circles.  30 years ago, teams wanted HR hitters.  Then, pitching was more important.  First starters.  Then closers were all the rage.  You needed a closer and a setup guy.  Suddenly the "Moneyball" era focused on OBP and OPS, and other sabermetric stats.  The newest movement, not started by Epstein, FYI, is to look at defensive skills.  Crawford was an attempt to keep pace with pioneer teams like Tampa and Oakland, who were focusing HEAVILY on defense.  The logic is it will be more important with fewer and fewer steroid abusers, and offense will be at a premium.  Within a few years, the focus will change again. 

    Maybe someday, someone will realize that all of the middle relievers in one bullpen  usually accumulate about 400IP a year, and make very little money.  And then the whole bullpen will be the rage...
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    NY was a laughing stock until they bought half the Sox talent after 1918.
    They they became the RedSox in Pinstripes(prison stripes is more applicable, as Frazee fire-sale probably would have been disallowed in another time).

    That ended in '64. And up until the advent of FA, NY again floundered.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pass-the-hubris-please. Show Pass-the-hubris-please's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]NY was a laughing stock until they bought half the Sox talent after 1918. They they became the RedSox in Pinstripes (prison stripes is more applicable, as Frazee fire-sale probably would have been disallowed in another time). That ended in '64. And up until the advent of FA, NY again floundered.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    The most muddleheaded, fatuous post since Dabro and Smiley cruised the forum.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Arodswallows. Show Arodswallows's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : Great point. They don't perform at all. Ortiz, Pedroia, Varitek, Ellsbury, Papelbon etc etc...they were handed their rings and their MVP's and Rookie of the Year Awards...but damn...they are too pampered to perform. I just wish one time the Sox would come through and win some big games...I want them to be elite...like a franchise who has the most rings this decade....oh wait...they are that teams...oops
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]


    they dont have ANY rings THIS decade, you genius...
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    Miss good ole' Dabs. Smiley is needling hyphenated cyborgs in innerspace.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : The most muddleheaded, fatuous post since Dabro and Smiley cruised the forum.
    Posted by Pass-the-hubris-please[/QUOTE]

    ...said the unidentified Yankee fan who trolls rival team's message boards under various aliases. Nice of you to turn up again at this point, you know, with the others.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]" If you are a Red Sox fan and they are in the midst of a horrendous slump then why would you wish to bash them?" Gotta disagree with you here on craze4sox...unlike you I have been reading his stuff all summer and while I don't always agree and find some stuff a bit more negative than I tend to go I think it's absolutely clear he is a fan here to have baseball discussions.  Echo, you seem to be under the impression that what is said in this forum has some impact on what happens to the team on the field. If that was the case, then bashing the Sox would be unethical. But since that is not only not the case, but a ludicrous idea, then anything is fair game here. My issue with negative people here are those who literally seem to want the Sox to lose to either reinforce some kind of need to wallow or who need to be proven right by the Sox failing or who naively and ignorantly feel that losing is better for the franchise. Craze4sox doesn't meet any of those criteria and I enjoy his interesting and passionate baseball contributions. I'd be much more likely to put you on ignore than craze4sox.
    Posted by BostonTrollSpanker[/QUOTE]

    Thanks BTC I appreciate the support.  I try to be as honest as possible, unfortunately that includes the negative topics which some fans don't care to hear.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : That's right Tom . Numbers don't lie. But how they are stated can skew the meaning of them. Hitting numbers against Lackey or any pitcher are reflective of talent level and venue. And until a breakdown is made, there's no definitive conclusion. I tried to get this across to you when we discussed it on the REALISTIC thread. The RedSox were in their Juggernaut offense from 2003 to the present. Some years they hit over .300 as a team in Fenway. Over this 8-year period, they hit .243 in Safeco and .255 in Oakland. Data not broken down can be very misleading.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

              OPS of opponents
    2008 .766
    09 .755
    10 .737
    11 .753

    These numbers are from massive sample sizes, which is why I say they don't lie.

    Harness I am aware of your argument I just think it is not pertinent to this debate.  I can see why it is assumed that the move to the AL East is a large part of Lackey's decline, but I don't see the evidence that it is.  The quality of the hitters was higher in 2008 and 2009.  Those players put up those numbers in the same venues as Lackey for the most part, their OPS is higher so I can't see how the venue hurt there numbers.

    He has had similar home and road ERAs 2011 2010 and 2009.

    The venue issue is a red herring, playing in the AL East is also.  The problem is that his stuff has faded, he doesn't miss bats like he used to.  That is what the evidence tells me, others may disagree.


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" :           OPS of opponents 2008 .766 09 .755 10 .737 11 .753 These numbers are from massive sample sizes, which is why I say they don't lie. Harness I am aware of your argument I just think it is not pertinent to this debate.  I can see why it is assumed that the move to the AL East is a large part of Lackey's decline, but I don't see the evidence that it is.  The quality of the hitters was higher in 2008 and 2009.  Those players put up those numbers in the same venues as Lackey for the most part, there OPS is higher so I can't see how the venue hurt there numbers. He has had similar home and road ERAs 2011 2010 and 2009. The venue issue is a red herring, playing in the AL East is also.  The problem is that his stuff has faded, he doesn't miss bats like he used to.  That is what the evidence tells me, others may disagree.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    Wow, good to see you "in person" on the Board!! I always see you on telecasts and have even told my wife, look that guy with the earphones is there EVERY game, and here you are on the Board!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    The team has carved a "Yankee" like identity since 2004. They have had success but the move from Red Sox fans to Red Sox nation seems to have changed the team's persona. This year's inflated payroll reflects the overeaching and it has sunk us this year. Hopefully now we can back on course and add talent that helps us play better as a team Theo has done a very bad job this year and last year was terrible year for him as well. I think his leaving is essential as his throwing money at talent that does not fit the team needs and is weighing on the Red Sox future.

    I like this post and think it raises some very intriguing questions. Is it possible that spending big money on FA's can actually make the team worse? I suppose that having a bunch of high priced "outsiders" in the locker room could create some issues for those lesser paid players who came up through the ranks. And citing the cases of Lackey and Crawford this year, one might argue that the albatross of a huge contract can actually weigh so much on a player that he ends up playing worse than he ordinarily would. Certainly seems like diving into the "payroll race" with the Yankees has not helped make the RS a better team.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    Hey PS

    I am actually Pipa, Kate's sis. My backside made famous.

    I just liked the look of Yellow phone guy. Turns out he was a 70s agent.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]Hey PS I am actually Pipa, Kate's sis. My backside made famous. I just liked the look of Yellow phone guy. Turns out he was a 70s agent.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    Oh, never mind. (I am sure you are not Pipa either, but that's another story.) Hope Yellow phone guy doesn't mind your use of his mug.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from WilcyMoore. Show WilcyMoore's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]The team has carved a "Yankee" like identity since 2004. They have had success but the move from Red Sox fans to Red Sox nation seems to have changed the team's persona. This year's inflated payroll reflects the overeaching and it has sunk us this year. Hopefully now we can back on course and add talent that helps us play better as a team Theo has done a very bad job this year and last year was terrible year for him as well. I think his leaving is essential as his throwing money at talent that does not fit the team needs and is weighing on the Red Sox future. I like this post and think it raises some very intriguing questions. Is it possible that spending big money on FA's can actually make the team worse? I suppose that having a bunch of high priced "outsiders" in the locker room could create some issues for those lesser paid players who came up through the ranks. And citing the cases of Lackey and Crawford this year, one might argue that the albatross of a huge contract can actually weigh so much on a player that he ends up playing worse than he ordinarily would. Certainly seems like diving into the "payroll race" with the Yankees has not helped make the RS a better team.
    Posted by pschuller[/QUOTE]

    The current Red Sox have and do spend money often and irresponsibly on huge contracts for star players because they can and obviously they believe that it makes them more competitive and entertaining.   The Yankees do the same and any team that could financially would follow the same blueprint.  Small market teams develop young talent, but cannot afford to keep it once it establishes itself.  Mid market teams keep a handful of their home grown talent long term and do not go after other teams' top tier free agents.  Less than 1/3rd of all MLB teams have the financial resources to give players "guaranteed" $100 plus contracts.   This has been the pattern since the start of this century, but in the 20th century the Boston Red Sox of the 1930's were the first franchise in history to spend extravagantly and often buying players.  The Yankees paid $125,000 for George Herman Ruth.  The Boston Red Sox paid much more than that for players named Joe Cronin, Jimmie Foxx and Lefty Grove among others.  The Yankees offered Yaz a $40,000 signing bonus.  The Red Sox paid him over $100,000.  Buying players in no way guarantees championships.  Those are earned most often by the "collective" play of guys on 25 man rosters, the vast majority of whom do not have big contracts.  Guys like Crawford, Rodriguez, Gonzalez and Teixeira invididually make more money than the entire Yankee outfield combined.  There is absolutely no way that the contributions of any of these individual players can even approach those of Gardner, Jones, Granderson and Swisher collectively.      
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    Great post Wilcy.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pass-the-hubris-please. Show Pass-the-hubris-please's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : ...said the unidentified Yankee fan who trolls rival team's message boards under various aliases. Nice of you to turn up again at this point, you know, with the others.
    Posted by kimsaysthis[/QUOTE]

    Ah, the buzzing of a bloated bee in a jar.  
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" : Thanks BTC I appreciate the support.   I try to be as honest as possible, unfortunately that includes the negative topics which some fans don't care to hear.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Gag me with a spoon.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder"

    In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder":
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fox article labeling Theo "Boy Blunder" :           OPS of opponents 2008 .766 09 .755 10 .737 11 .753 These numbers are from massive sample sizes, which is why I say they don't lie. Harness I am aware of your argument I just think it is not pertinent to this debate.  I can see why it is assumed that the move to the AL East is a large part of Lackey's decline, but I don't see the evidence that it is.  The quality of the hitters was higher in 2008 and 2009.  Those players put up those numbers in the same venues as Lackey for the most part, there OPS is higher so I can't see how the venue hurt there numbers. He has had similar home and road ERAs 2011 2010 and 2009. The venue issue is a red herring, playing in the AL East is also.  The problem is that his stuff has faded, he doesn't miss bats like he used to.  That is what the evidence tells me, others may disagree.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    Tom, my claim about Lackey is that the pitcher we saw in 2010 was the same pitcher we saw in 2009 in CA - in that the numbers once adjusted, play out.
    This year is not 2010. He went down in May with severe elbow inflammation. There's a protective clause regarding that elbow in his contract. I believe it was an issue in 2008 and again in 2009.

    It's very possible this year's poor ERA/WHIP etc. can be attributed to that. I don't know.

    Venue/level of comp. is a part of the varied data, but this year it has but the same impact as last year, so obviously there's something else at play. It's either injury or age. You call it.
     

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