Francona owes me big time...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Francona owes me big time...

    I do believe that the exact moment that I started the discussion "Nowhere To Hide", the Indians started playing like the playoff team they have become....and I mean the exact moment...Tongue Out

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    C'mon Geo...no need to say it..we all know those wins are Francona's fault Wink

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to georom4's comment:

    I do believe that the exact moment that I started the discussion "Nowhere To Hide", the Indians started playing like the playoff team they have become....and I mean the exact moment...Tongue Out




    Should've tried that with Bobby V.

    Wouldn't have been quite so embarrassing for you.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    Francona was, and still is, the man.

    All of 'the team wins in spite of Tito' is hogwash.

    The team wins largely because of Tito.  His players would jump through walls for him.  Same is true with Farrell.  Not that either one does a bad job of in game managing, but I've always felt that managing the clubhouse is more important than managing on the field.  As Tito and Farrell have both said, once the game starts, the guys know what to do.  More or less sit back, and let the players play their game.

    The seemingly inability to do this is what bothers me so much about Scioscia and Maddon.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    The team wins largely because of Tito.  His players would jump through walls for him.

    Okay, for several years now, I've been saying that when you and I have different opinions, I usually assume I made a mistake.  But on this one, after all these years, I am drawing a line.

    I don't think you can jump through a wall.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    Francona was, and still is, the man.

    All of 'the team wins in spite of Tito' is hogwash.

    The team wins largely because of Tito.  His players would jump through walls for him.  Same is true with Farrell.  Not that either one does a bad job of in game managing, but I've always felt that managing the clubhouse is more important than managing on the field.  As Tito and Farrell have both said, once the game starts, the guys know what to do.  More or less sit back, and let the players play their game.

    The seemingly inability to do this is what bothers me so much about Scioscia and Maddon.



    All due respect, but MLB especially is not conducive to chemistry.  Yes, it happens, but the Oakland Athletics of decades ago showed a team could fight internally and still win the WS--2 or 3 years in a row.  I might agree with you on Scioscia, but not on Maddon.  His guys love playing for him, which is hard to do given the small crowds and their absolute horror of a ballpark.  As for the intellectual side, every manager is constantly juggling lineups, when to bring in a reliever and who, when to pinch hit, whether to call for a double steal, etc, etc. 

    On one point I will agree.  Francona's contract was not renewed after 2011 precisely because he had lost the clubhouse.  He is, as you say, a good player's manager.  But every manager needs the players too.  Terry won it all in 2004 with a fantastic lineup anchored by Ortiz and Manny and some pretty good pitchers like the bloody sock guy.  But he also said exactly the right thing after losing the first three to the NYY--we don't have to win four games, we just have to win the next game--and they did.  Terry won the WS again in 2007 again because of a very good lineup--by then he had become an expert in allowing "manny being manny"--and a very good pitching staff. 

    Farrell has definitely been good for team chemistry this year, but he has also made some good moves, and he has had pretty good players.  Four of the top 15 WAR's in the AL belong to Pedroia, Victorino, Ellsbury, and Ortiz, who, guess what, usually bat 1, 2, 3, and 4.  Plus this year the rotation really came around.  So I give Farrell a lot of credit, but also Ben C and the players.

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    The team wins largely because of Tito.  His players would jump through walls for him.

    Okay, for several years now, I've been saying that when you and I have different opinions, I usually assume I made a mistake.  But on this one, after all these years, I am drawing a line.

    I don't think you can jump through a wall.

     

    LOL Joey, I'll concede on this one.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    All due respect, but MLB especially is not conducive to chemistry.  Yes, it happens, but the Oakland Athletics of decades ago showed a team could fight internally and still win the WS--2 or 3 years in a row. 



    I think 'chemistry' is a problematic word.

    I prefer 'motivated'.  A good manager does what he has to do to keep his players motivated.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to georom4's comment:

    I do believe that the exact moment that I started the discussion "Nowhere To Hide", the Indians started playing like the playoff team they have become....and I mean the exact moment...Tongue Out



    Well done.  I'm wondering if any of the other Tito-haters will have the coconuts to come back and admit that there are very few managers, in history, that could've taken a moribund organization like the Indians, and turned around the entire franchise.

    Since about the end of April, they've gone 83-57.  That's the same record as the RS over that period.  LAD is 82-58 over the period.  Without research, CL probably has the best record in BB over the past 140 games.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    All due respect, but MLB especially is not conducive to chemistry.  Yes, it happens, but the Oakland Athletics of decades ago showed a team could fight internally and still win the WS--2 or 3 years in a row.  I might agree with you on Scioscia, but not on Maddon.  His guys love playing for him, which is hard to do given the small crowds and their absolute horror of a ballpark.  As for the intellectual side, every manager is constantly juggling lineups, when to bring in a reliever and who, when to pinch hit, whether to call for a double steal, etc, etc. 

    On one point I will agree.  Francona's contract was not renewed after 2011 precisely because he had lost the clubhouse.  He is, as you say, a good player's manager.  But every manager needs the players too.  Terry won it all in 2004 with a fantastic lineup anchored by Ortiz and Manny and some pretty good pitchers like the bloody sock guy.  But he also said exactly the right thing after losing the first three to the NYY--we don't have to win four games, we just have to win the next game--and they did.  Terry won the WS again in 2007 again because of a very good lineup--by then he had become an expert in allowing "manny being manny"--and a very good pitching staff. 

    Farrell has definitely been good for team chemistry this year, but he has also made some good moves, and he has had pretty good players.  Four of the top 15 WAR's in the AL belong to Pedroia, Victorino, Ellsbury, and Ortiz, who, guess what, usually bat 1, 2, 3, and 4.  Plus this year the rotation really came around.  So I give Farrell a lot of credit, but also Ben C and the players.

    Fair points - I don't really disagree with most of what you said.

    Let me clarify a few things.  First, I didn't mean to imply that Maddon was not a good clubhouse guy.  I agree that his players really seem to like playing for him.  The issue I have with him and Scioscia is that they micromanage during the game, IMO.  I think that they go too far in trying to show the baseball world what geniuses they are.  Just my opinion, of course.

    Secondly, when saying that I think managing the clubhouse is more important than in game managing, I am not saying that in game decisions aren't important.  Nor am I saying that there aren't exceptions to this.  However, I believe that a manager who has the trust and confidence of his players is going to get a lot more out of them than one who doesn't.  Also, the ability to make the right in game decisions stems largely from knowing your players.

    Lastly, I know that the talent has to be their as well.  The players get and deserve most of the credit for their production on the field.  But as I said above, a good manager is going to be able to get the most out of that talent on the field by instilling trust and confidence in his players and by knowing his players well enough to put them in the positions where they have the best chance of succeeding. 

    We all like to think that the players are professional enough not to let things bother them, but I think in any work force, not just sports, the employees and players are going to produce better if they know their boss has their backs.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    Francona's contract was not renewed after 2011 precisely because he had lost the clubhouse.  He is, as you say, a good player's manager.

    He was not renewed, imo, because Larry choked.  There were a lot of articles, by the same writers that complain every year, and Larry cowered in the corner and decided to cut ties with everyone.  Atl went 8-18 down the stretch in 2011, and missed the playoffs, just like us.  But they didn't panic, and won 94 and 95+ the next two years.  SF won the WS, then missed the playoffs completely.  Didn't panic, kept Bochy, and won the WS again the following year.  Tito might be the best manager in BB, but Larry didn't want to argue that point with the press.

     But every manager needs the players too.  Terry won it all in 2004 with a fantastic lineup anchored by Ortiz and Manny and some pretty good pitchers like the bloody sock guy.  But he also said exactly the right thing after losing the first three to the NYY--we don't have to win four games, we just have to win the next game--and they did.

    Yup, basically did the same thing this year.  Started off 8-13, and regrouped.  He went 4-16 and regrouped.  Lost 6 in a row, and then 5 in a row as recently as late August, and came back both times.

    After on brutal 9th inning meltdown, implied they'd come back.  And what I really liked most, he addressed the 'nervous' issue.  Said it was an exciting nervousness, something to embrace.  That gives the guys on the team the right to do the same thing.  Instead of just feeling nervous, you go in both nervous, and excited about the opportunity to be playing an important game.

     

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to georom4's comment:

    I do believe that the exact moment that I started the discussion "Nowhere To Hide", the Indians started playing like the playoff team they have become....and I mean the exact moment...Tongue Out




    I guesss the guy can manage after all.  You'd  think two World Series rings would have already confirmed that.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I do believe that the exact moment that I started the discussion "Nowhere To Hide", the Indians started playing like the playoff team they have become....and I mean the exact moment...Tongue Out

     




    I guesss the guy can manage after all.  You'd  think two World Series rings would have already confirmed that.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The Tito haters will find another excuse.  Even if they win it all.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to BurritoT-'s comment:

    The Red Sox needed to get rid of Tito, and the Indians really needed Tito... nothing against the guy, I like him, but he needed to go.

    Tito & Theo always played for the wild card .... thankfully MLB made the wild card less appealing this year. Win the division baby!

     

    I agree that it was probably time for Tito to go.  However, I am also willing to bet that had he come back in 2012, we would have seen a renewed committment from the players towards Tito after the 2011 collapse.  BobbyV was never the answer.

    I disagree that Tito and Theo played for the wildcard.  IMO, they played for the division every year.  However, unless it was a do or die game, they were not going to win at all costs, thereby possibly jeopardizing season long goals or the health of players in the playoffs.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to jimdavis's comment:

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

     

    I do believe that the exact moment that I started the discussion "Nowhere To Hide", the Indians started playing like the playoff team they have become....and I mean the exact moment...Tongue Out

     

     




    I guesss the guy can manage after all.  You'd  think two World Series rings would have already confirmed that.

     

     

     




    The Tito haters will find another excuse.  Even if they win it all.

     

    hey, what's up JD? Cool


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    All due respect, but MLB especially is not conducive to chemistry.  Yes, it happens, but the Oakland Athletics of decades ago showed a team could fight internally and still win the WS--2 or 3 years in a row. 

     



    I think 'chemistry' is a problematic word.

     

    I prefer 'motivated'.  A good manager does what he has to do to keep his players motivated.

    [/QUOTE]


    I think chemistry is a fair word when used to describe a dynamic on a team. Coaches usually remain pretty consistent from year to year..but every now and then you get a group of players that just clicks..and works well together as a team. Yes, the coach figures into it, but if WS champions were based on the coach's leadership alone then you'd see the same few teams winning all the time.

    Good coaching is an absolute must for a successful team..but good team chemistry is just as important. We've seen both with this year's Sox team.

    Francona was a great coach..but I was not sorry to see him go ( the way he left maybe..but not that he left). As a leadership philosophy, I don't believe in anyone being captain of the sup for too long. I think changing up the leadership every few years keeps things fresh.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to georom4's comment:

    I do believe that the exact moment that I started the discussion "Nowhere To Hide", the Indians started playing like the playoff team they have become....and I mean the exact moment...Tongue Out



    Any playoff winning words for the sox?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to 67redsox's comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    I do believe that the exact moment that I started the discussion "Nowhere To Hide", the Indians started playing like the playoff team they have become....and I mean the exact moment...Tongue Out

     



    Any playoff winning words for the sox?

     

    be patient 67, Geo's waiting for the" exact" momentTongue OutWink


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

    In response to 67redsox's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    I do believe that the exact moment that I started the discussion "Nowhere To Hide", the Indians started playing like the playoff team they have become....and I mean the exact moment...Tongue Out

     



    Any playoff winning words for the sox?

     

     

    be patient 67, Geo's waiting for the" exact" momentTongue OutWink


     

    [/QUOTE]

    LOL!

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    Again, I am just really excited to hear what Bosox41 has to say about this.  

             
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Francona owes me big time...

    In response to RedSoxFireman's comment:

    I always gave Tito credit for being a good overall manager, but made it clear it was time for him to go. And it was, because union labor had lost respect for him. 

    That said, he's clearly the manager of the year, along with the A's manager. He'll be a heavy underdog if he wins the play-in game, but this Red Sox team has a serious roster flaw.



    ... which is ... the potent 1-9 offense? ... the bench depth? ... the rotation? ...

     
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