Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    If Don "gerbil" Zimmer can be in, why not the only manager to win a world series in Boston since Ed Barrow? What say you georom?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    8-0 in the world series. 744-552 overall with 2 pennants and 2 WS titles. i would say he is deserving

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to georom4's comment:

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....



    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.



    of course it means he was awesome...this is why KC Jones ended up coaching the WNBA and Ditka couldnt get a job coaching anywhere after his 64 defense expired...every coach who wins a title is great Space!

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.

     



    of course it means he was awesome...this is why KC Jones ended up coaching the WNBA and Ditka couldnt get a job coaching anywhere after his 64 defense expired...every coach who wins a title is great Space!

     



    2 titles, a game short of another WS appearance, 5 playoffs in 8 years in the toughest market and most hard-core division in baseball.

    You could be right Geo.  he might be awful.  Baseball managing is an elusive and shadowy trade to judge.  But, some people might weight the  track record a little more than your bar-room slanders.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.

     



    of course it means he was awesome...this is why KC Jones ended up coaching the WNBA and Ditka couldnt get a job coaching anywhere after his 64 defense expired...every coach who wins a title is great Space!

     

     



    2 titles, a game short of another WS appearance, 5 playoffs in 8 years in the toughest market and most hard-core division in baseball.

     

    You could be right Geo.  he might be awful.  Baseball managing is an elusive and shadowy trade to judge.  But, some people might weight the  track record a little more than your bar-room slanders.

     




    based on that premise, why did we fire grady little at all? was he not one game away from the title?  maybe, just maybe, those guys who were difficult (papi, pedro, curt, manny, etc) according to his book were the ones who mattered? remove those stars/players (funnt how he wasnt complaining about management then) and what do you get? the Phillies....how did Francona do there?

     

    i rest my case

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    .440 % in 4 seasons....71 wins a season....

     

    thats how bad Francona was in Philly....

    then pedro, papi, Manny, Schilling, Nomar, Pedroia, Beckett (in his youth), etc...

     

    then he becomes awesome.....

    i get it now...

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.



    How did he do in Philly? He was lucky to have happened upon a dominant team in 2004 and a very good one in 2007. He might get in, but I think he was pretty mediocre, especially from a tactical standpoint.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.

     



    How did he do in Philly? He was lucky to have happened upon a dominant team in 2004 and a very good one in 2007. He might get in, but I think he was pretty mediocre, especially from a tactical standpoint.

     




    What does what he did in Philadelphia have to do with whether he belongs in the Red Sox hall of fame?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to carnie's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.

     



    How did he do in Philly? He was lucky to have happened upon a dominant team in 2004 and a very good one in 2007. He might get in, but I think he was pretty mediocre, especially from a tactical standpoint.

     

     




    What does what he did in Philadelphia have to do with whether he belongs in the Red Sox hall of fame?

     




    Because you have to consider what kind of manager he was without excluding any of his body of work. Like I said, he might get in, but tactically, he was pretty poor.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.

     



    of course it means he was awesome...this is why KC Jones ended up coaching the WNBA and Ditka couldnt get a job coaching anywhere after his 64 defense expired...every coach who wins a title is great Space!

     

     



    2 titles, a game short of another WS appearance, 5 playoffs in 8 years in the toughest market and most hard-core division in baseball.

     

    You could be right Geo.  he might be awful.  Baseball managing is an elusive and shadowy trade to judge.  But, some people might weight the  track record a little more than your bar-room slanders.

     

     




    based on that premise, why did we fire grady little at all? was he not one game away from the title?  maybe, just maybe, those guys who were difficult (papi, pedro, curt, manny, etc) according to his book were the ones who mattered? remove those stars/players (funnt how he wasnt complaining about management then) and what do you get? the Phillies....how did Francona do there?

     

     

    i rest my case



    The fact that you think, based on tiny excerpts from a book that you haven't read, that Francona didn't understand that Papi, Pedro, Curt, Manny etc mattered is proof positive how skewed your thinking is.  He bent over backwards for years with Manny precisely because he understood how much he mattered.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to carnie's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.

     



    How did he do in Philly? He was lucky to have happened upon a dominant team in 2004 and a very good one in 2007. He might get in, but I think he was pretty mediocre, especially from a tactical standpoint.

     

     




    What does what he did in Philadelphia have to do with whether he belongs in the Red Sox hall of fame?

     




    i said he did belong in the red sox hall...but im not the one who said he was a great manager...that would be spaceman...just some perspective Carnie...he was a terrible manager in philly and was lucky to have great players here....

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to carnie's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.

     



    How did he do in Philly? He was lucky to have happened upon a dominant team in 2004 and a very good one in 2007. He might get in, but I think he was pretty mediocre, especially from a tactical standpoint.

     

     




    What does what he did in Philadelphia have to do with whether he belongs in the Red Sox hall of fame?

     

     




    i said he did belong in the red sox hall...but im not the one who said he was a great manager...that would be spaceman...just some perspective Carnie...he was a terrible manager in philly and was lucky to have great players here....

     



    His body of work both here and in Philly shows what a terrible tactician he was. He was handed some pretty good teams here and managed them poorly. If you just look at his record you do not get a clear picture of what kind of manager he really was.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    Francona consistently made the same kinds of tactical errors over and over again, stubbornly refusing to learn from his mistakes. Some examples of these mistakes were allowing Wakefield to trot out there what-10 times?-in search of his 200th win that "the fans deserved to see him get" while the team sank into oblivion, refusing to replace starting pitchers when they were clearly tired-with predictable results, removing starting pitchers too soon when the game was out of hand anyway and burning out the bullpen instead of allowing the SP to remain in the game until he reached a reasonable pitch count, overprotecting and coddling the players on the team that belonged to the "good old boys network",  refusing to employ the bunt, the steal, the pinch hit, the hit and run etc etc. He was as creative on the field as drywall. Admittedly, he did better when the team reached the playoffs in these areas, and until he completely lost the clubhouse, he was reasonably good at managing a difficult clubhouse. Overall, I would grade him a "C" and not worthy of any hall of fame. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Francona consistently made the same kinds of tactical errors over and over again, stubbornly refusing to learn from his mistakes. Some examples of these mistakes were allowing Wakefield to trot out there what-10 times?-in search of his 200th win that "the fans deserved to see him get" while the team sank into oblivion, refusing to replace starting pitchers when they were clearly tired-with predictable results, removing starting pitchers too soon when the game was out of hand anyway and burning out the bullpen instead of allowing the SP to remain in the game until he reached a reasonable pitch count, overprotecting and coddling the players on the team that belonged to the "good old boys network",  refusing to employ the bunt, the steal, the pinch hit, the hit and run etc etc. He was as creative on the field as drywall. Admittedly, he did better when the team reached the playoffs in these areas, and until he completely lost the clubhouse, he was reasonably good at managing a difficult clubhouse. Overall, I would grade him a "C" and not worthy of any hall of fame. 




    I'm not so sure that didn't come from the front office, pumpsie. Good for the brand

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to J-BAY's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    Francona consistently made the same kinds of tactical errors over and over again, stubbornly refusing to learn from his mistakes. Some examples of these mistakes were allowing Wakefield to trot out there what-10 times?-in search of his 200th win that "the fans deserved to see him get" while the team sank into oblivion, refusing to replace starting pitchers when they were clearly tired-with predictable results, removing starting pitchers too soon when the game was out of hand anyway and burning out the bullpen instead of allowing the SP to remain in the game until he reached a reasonable pitch count, overprotecting and coddling the players on the team that belonged to the "good old boys network",  refusing to employ the bunt, the steal, the pinch hit, the hit and run etc etc. He was as creative on the field as drywall. Admittedly, he did better when the team reached the playoffs in these areas, and until he completely lost the clubhouse, he was reasonably good at managing a difficult clubhouse. Overall, I would grade him a "C" and not worthy of any hall of fame. 

     




    I'm not so sure that didn't come from the front office, pumpsie. Good for the brand

     




    A "Hall of Fame Manager" would have stood up to the FO and told them that there was no time any more for that kind of sentimental side stories, that if the team was going to turn it around, Wakefield could not start any more.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    Don Zimmer is in the Red Sox hall of fame. Terry Francona > Don Zimmer. Case closed.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to georom4's comment:

    In response to carnie's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:

     

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    i would think youre right.....how can you say no?

     

    doesnt mean he was any good but he did win two titles....

     



     

    True, 2 titles probably means he must have been pretty lousy.

     



    How did he do in Philly? He was lucky to have happened upon a dominant team in 2004 and a very good one in 2007. He might get in, but I think he was pretty mediocre, especially from a tactical standpoint.

     

     




    What does what he did in Philadelphia have to do with whether he belongs in the Red Sox hall of fame?

     

     




    i said he did belong in the red sox hall...but im not the one who said he was a great manager...that would be spaceman...just some perspective Carnie...he was a terrible manager in philly and was lucky to have great players here....

     



    Never said he was "great" Geo.  I am not even sure what that means in a manager.  I mean, i didn't think Joe Torre was "great", but, i certainly wouldn't argue that he was lousy. He did something right.  Just because you have good teams doesn't mean you win it all.  Many a supposed juggernaut falls short in baseball.  Managing, in baseball significantly more than in football or basketball, is far less x's and o's than it is metaphysics and alchemy.  Thats my take.  I never said he was "great".  In fact, I think he was overly dogmatic, rigid, and uncreative as a tactician.  I merely argue that is missing the boat on what baseball managing is to overvalue in-game decision-making.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to J-BAY's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    Francona consistently made the same kinds of tactical errors over and over again, stubbornly refusing to learn from his mistakes. Some examples of these mistakes were allowing Wakefield to trot out there what-10 times?-in search of his 200th win that "the fans deserved to see him get" while the team sank into oblivion, refusing to replace starting pitchers when they were clearly tired-with predictable results, removing starting pitchers too soon when the game was out of hand anyway and burning out the bullpen instead of allowing the SP to remain in the game until he reached a reasonable pitch count, overprotecting and coddling the players on the team that belonged to the "good old boys network",  refusing to employ the bunt, the steal, the pinch hit, the hit and run etc etc. He was as creative on the field as drywall. Admittedly, he did better when the team reached the playoffs in these areas, and until he completely lost the clubhouse, he was reasonably good at managing a difficult clubhouse. Overall, I would grade him a "C" and not worthy of any hall of fame. 

     




    I'm not so sure that didn't come from the front office, pumpsie. Good for the brand

     

     




    A "Hall of Fame Manager" would have stood up to the FO and told them that there was no time any more for that kind of sentimental side stories, that if the team was going to turn it around, Wakefield could not start any more.

     




    Agreed, pumpsie, but it doesn't mean he didn't balk at it. If I recall, he did finally sit him, when enough was enough. Does any one know if he addressed that in the book?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    Francona was a mid 30's first time manager in Philly. It was probably almost expected for him to lose more, like most do in their first managing experience. But then again, were talking about the RED SOX HOF so nothing he did in Philly has any barring on what he did in Boston.

    If you havent read the book like I have, geo, than your opinions regarding the book are useless. Its funny how some can read 2 blurbs from a whole book and actually think they now have all the info they need to comment on said book. Arrogant much?

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Francona should be in the Red Sox hall of fame

    In response to J-BAY's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to J-BAY's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    Francona consistently made the same kinds of tactical errors over and over again, stubbornly refusing to learn from his mistakes. Some examples of these mistakes were allowing Wakefield to trot out there what-10 times?-in search of his 200th win that "the fans deserved to see him get" while the team sank into oblivion, refusing to replace starting pitchers when they were clearly tired-with predictable results, removing starting pitchers too soon when the game was out of hand anyway and burning out the bullpen instead of allowing the SP to remain in the game until he reached a reasonable pitch count, overprotecting and coddling the players on the team that belonged to the "good old boys network",  refusing to employ the bunt, the steal, the pinch hit, the hit and run etc etc. He was as creative on the field as drywall. Admittedly, he did better when the team reached the playoffs in these areas, and until he completely lost the clubhouse, he was reasonably good at managing a difficult clubhouse. Overall, I would grade him a "C" and not worthy of any hall of fame. 

     




    I'm not so sure that didn't come from the front office, pumpsie. Good for the brand

     

     




    A "Hall of Fame Manager" would have stood up to the FO and told them that there was no time any more for that kind of sentimental side stories, that if the team was going to turn it around, Wakefield could not start any more.

     

     




    Agreed, pumpsie, but it doesn't mean he didn't balk at it. If I recall, he did finally sit him, when enough was enough. Does any one know if he addressed that in the book?

     

     




    He addressed it to them. Any of the PR moves they did was questioned if it wasnt good for the team as far as winning. Like when they (the team) constantly wanted to play afternoon get away day games instead of nights but the FO thought there was more $$ to be made with a night game. The whole Japan thing was questioned and a few other things. the Owners didnt always care about whats best for the team to win if there was more $$$ involved.

    The Owners actually wanted Tito to apologize to Manny after manny acting out. They didnt have his back at all.

    Ttio didnt bash them throughout the book. It was mostly about him growing up in MLB and his baseball life. The Ownership seemed to lose sight of what got them there and Francona told his side of it. It was a good read.

     

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