Francona vs. Valentine

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from william93063. Show william93063's posts

    Francona vs. Valentine

    There has been some discussion about how similar their careers as players were, highly regarded can't miss prospects who had debilitating injuries and never panned out.  What is amazing is how similar their career batting numbers are.  In fact they are virtuallly identical.  It probably means absolutely nothing but is interesting in any case

    Francona's 162 game average:

    162 418 396 37 108 17 1 4 33 3 3 15 27 .274 .300 .351 .652 81 139 7 1 3 2 3
      And Valentines:


      162 484 430 45 112 15 2 3 40 7 5 35 34 .260 .315 .326 .641 85 140 12 2 9 7 1
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from william93063. Show william93063's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    Managing wise Tito wins out obviously but when you look at what Bobby V. did in Texas with perennially mediocre pitching staffs(save future hall of famer Nolan Ryan) his record there in many ways is more impressive than in New York especially when you consider how much of a train wreck his Met's managing career became even with the world series appearence.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigdog1. Show bigdog1's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    Francona has had superior talent, he is the worst tactical manager I have ever seen.  Finally goodbye.  Talent wins, and it takes a certain degree of talent to coach talent but as far as being a tactician, forget about it.
     
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    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]Francona has had superior talent, he is the worst tactical manager I have ever seen.  Finally goodbye.  Talent wins, and it takes a certain degree of talent to coach talent but as far as being a tactician, forget about it.
    Posted by bigdog1[/QUOTE]


    Sorry but I respectfully disagree.  Tito's tenure in the dugout was superior to Theo's in the GM's office IMHO.  Theo is excellent at player development but terrible at big ticket Free agent signing's.  Tito manages those personalities equally well which was probably  his greatest strength.  That part of the manager's job in 2011 is perhaps the most difficult and we all discount it because we cannot see the day to day grind. He was certainly a player's manager and this year it was no longer working(the lunatics were in fact running the asylum) it finally backfired and it cost him his job.  He did tend to stay with starting pitchers too long at times, that is my one observation that I would say bore consistent criticism, but his strengths far outweighed his weaknesses.  I for one already miss him.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    I have not heard any discussion until now. Tito is gone, thankfully. Valentine has my support and hopes and dreams....  
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    What you won't see in 2012:

    • L-R-L-R-L-R
    • A pitcher with a 100 pitch count, a one run lead, being pulled b4 the 7th inning
    • Scutaro batting clean-up
    • Crawford batting 7th ALL FREAKING YEAR
    • The manager wearing his poncho 24/7
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from william93063. Show william93063's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]What you won't see in 2012: L-R-L-R-L-R A pitcher with a 100 pitch count, a one run lead, being pulled b4 the 7th inning Scutaro batting clean-up Crawford batting 7th ALL FREAKING YEAR The manager wearing his poncho 24/7
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    This is an oversimplification but I get your point.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    Based upon what I have heard on MLB network from former players.
    Valentine is not much different from Francona.
    Pretty much they are similar and if you think Valentine is a disciplinarian, former players have said no more than Francona and Francona is better with working with all players.
    They said if the RS hire Valentine they should have kept Francona there is very little difference.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]Based upon what I have heard on MLB network from former players. Valentine is not much different from Francona. Pretty much they are similar and if you think Valentine is a disciplinarian, former players have said no more than Francona and Francona is better with working with all players. They said if the RS hire Valentine they should have kept Francona there is very little difference.
    Posted by JimfromFlorida[/QUOTE]

    Jim,

    Not sure that becasue they might be the same is a bad thing...Cleary the issue with Francona IMHO was twofold...he was burned out and his contract stated that if they picked up his option it was a vested two years....something neither side appeared to be ready to commit too?

    I myself am not nor have I been all that jazzed about the prospect of then Sox hiring Valentine...that said, he certainly knows the game and how to manage in the fishbowl that is Boston...What might be his greatest attribute is that he is a very media savy guy....
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    The more I think about it, the more I like Bobby V.

    I liked Tito but had some major philosophical differences with him. My hope is that Bobby V will not be so rigid in his thinking (unless, of course, it agrees with my philosophy...LOL).
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine


    Jim, the big difference is that Valentine is considered an excellent tactician and strategist and Francona was neither.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]Jim, the big difference is that Valentine is considered an excellent tactician and strategist and Francona was neither.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Bosox what you miss is that the former players said  they were almost the same.Which means a minor difference not that one is an excellent tactician and strategist and the other is not.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine : Bosox what you miss is that the former players said  they were almost the same.Which means a minor difference not that one is an excellent tactician and strategist and the other is not.
    Posted by JimfromFlorida[/QUOTE]
    Well I believe that they're not even close to being the same.  Having excellent baseball sense and having close to no baseball sense is not a minor difference. One does not belong in the dugout during games while the other can actually help his team win games with his managing abilities.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from william93063. Show william93063's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine : Well I believe that they're not even close to being the same.  Having excellent baseball sense and having close to no baseball sense is not a minor difference. One does not belong in the dugout during games while the other can actually help his team win games with his managing abilities.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    And you know this because you spent so much time in a dugout with both managers obviously.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    Have to agree that Valentine is not the disciplinarian the team seems to need.  Not much different there from what Francona offered.

    And I have to agree that Valentine's record leads one to believe he will alienate more players than Francona.

    But, Valentine spent his most recent managing career in Japan.  Heavens knows what that experience did to change his ways.  Comparing what he did in NY to what he would be like now is probably not the best thing to do.

    And Valentine would have one advantage over Francona that has the potential to be very important.  Valentine is respected by and has a great rapport with Japanese players.  Francona and company were miserable failures with Dice-K, and in the end with Okajima as well.  Valentine ought to be able to repair a lot of the damage done, and that would be very important, since the thing the Sox need most is dependable pitching.  I have long agreed with Bobby that the Red Sox blew it with Dice-K, insisting that he do things the American way.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]Jim, the big difference is that Valentine is considered an excellent tactician and strategist and Francona was neither.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Lets see Francona won two world series championships and "mis manged his team to three ALCS and averaged over 90 wins a season...Bobby V I think managed the Met's to 1 WS and lost to the hated cross town rival Yanks. End of the day both are good baseball guy that have forgoten more about baseball than you've ever learned...

    Question...have you ever once posted something positive about the Sox? I'm beginning to wonder if your not one of the infamous dual personalities that find humor in playing devils advodate while masquerading as a Sox fan when in fact your loyalities lye with Darth Vador....
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from never1954. Show never1954's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    isn't it possible that the same basic message must be delivered in a different manner.  running out groung balls, getting in front of the ball, hitting the cut off etc....fundamental baseball has been forgotten.  valentine is a smart baseball man and for that matter so is francona so the old saying "don't kill the messanger" doesn't apply because we already did.  the sox just need to pay attention and i for 1 think that valentine carries more weight and would be the better option.   francona took what was given him and made it work, i'm just glad i got to see it.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine : Lets see Francona won two world series championships and "mis manged his team to three ALCS and averaged over 90 wins a season...Bobby V I think managed the Met's to 1 WS and lost to the hated cross town rival Yanks. End of the day both are good baseball guy that have forgoten more about baseball than you've ever learned... Question...have you ever once posted something positive about the Sox? I'm beginning to wonder if your not one of the infamous dual personalities that find humor in playing devils advodate while masquerading as a Sox fan when in fact your loyalities lye with Darth Vador....
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]
    Francona won 2 WS???? Don't you mean he was called the manager of the team that won 2 WS in spite of him?? The team he was called the manager of averaged over 90 wins a season while he sat and spat.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    This guy is available to manage.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    Oh wow, it's J. Fred himself.....awesome.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    Glad to see that there are a few of you posters willing to call it as it is.....namely that FrancoMa was a miserable field manager.  He was slower than dirt in removing a pitcher getting battered, then went with that miserable hard core 100 pitch count that resulted in pitchers winning being relieved by pitchers who wound up losing it for us.  How many times did we see that?  He was also a one trick pony with his mantra of station-to-station baseball that made him totally predictable by the opposition.  Rarely moving the runners, rarely hit and running, rarely run and hitting, rarely encouraging being agressive on the paths and taking the extra base, rarely bunting, and never using a squeeze bunt.  His reasoning was not to give up outs, but what that resulted in was a plethora of double plays and a ton of runners left on base because rarely were the runners encouraged to make it for third when second was safe or home when third was secure.

    We had a poster on here called tchandra back in 2007, a WS Title year and he swore he had counted at least a dozen games that FrancoMa cost the team with his strategical blundering in the dugout.  As for his two WS Titles, let's be honest about this....those were won in spite of him.  Well what did those two WS wins do for him this fall?  The Cardinals interviewed him and rejected him out of hand for a person who never managed anywhere before.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    tchanda actually described the blunders, and in one August he showed where Francona screwed up 8 games all by himself. He took the time to document the nonsense of Francona. Most of us simply watched it and couldn't believe he could be that bad, week in and week out. Grady make a judgement error in 2003 and got fired. Francona pulled a "Grady" multiple times weekly and was annointed as a genius because the team was able to overcome his ineptness and win.

    PS, No burrito, I'm not ready to lift my foot off his neck yet.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]tchanda actually described the blunders, and in one August he showed where Francona screwed up 8 games all by himself. He took the time to document the nonsense of Francona. Most of us simply watched it and couldn't believe he could be that bad, week in and week out. Grady make a judgement error in 2003 and got fired. Francona pulled a "Grady" multiple times weekly and was annointed as a genius because the team was able to overcome his ineptness and win. PS, No burrito, I'm not ready to lift my foot off his neck yet.
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]


    BUT WHAT IF YOUR ACT IS STALE AND BORING?



     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Francona vs. Valentine : BUT WHAT IF YOUR ACT IS STALE AND BORING?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]
    Ignore it !!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Francona vs. Valentine

    you dont need a taskmaster if you get rid of the fat ingrates that complain..wake, papi, lackey, josh..etc...there is no sense trying to instill discipline in these bloated vets - just send them on their way...the message will resonate all year long....discipline is best applied before trouble happens....
     

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