Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    Francona is doing a great job with the Indians so far. He did a great job in Boston. The record speaks for itself.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

     

     

     



     

    red sox were cursed in 86, blessed in 2004.......but the question is - would Francona have removed Buckner from the game and put in Stapleton in the 9th?  I say NO



    Posts like these say more about your prejudice than about Francona's managerial skills. When the facts are against you resort to pointless speculation? About a past event, no less, when Francona was still an active player.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    Maybe someday Tito will let his critics kiss his two World Series championship rings.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    Maybe someday Tito will let his critics kiss his two World Series championship rings.




    Among other things.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to devildavid's comment:

     

    Maybe someday Tito will let his critics kiss his two World Series championship rings.

     



    Did you go Virginia tech? My son graduated from there in 07'

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to 67redsox's comment:

    Did you go Virginia tech? My son graduated from there in 07'

     



    I know you didn't address this to me, but I did. Hokie high!

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to 67redsox's comment:

    In response to devildavid's comment:

     

    Maybe someday Tito will let his critics kiss his two World Series championship rings.

     



    Did you go Virginia tech? My son graduated from there in 07'

     



    No, I am changed my avatar at Jete's suggestion, to follow Lloyd's lead and honor the memory of the victims at Virginia Tech. Then Lloyd changed his avatar to Boston Strong. It's sad that we have so many victims of violence to remember recently.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    I'm not kissing Ditka either...Tito needs to to kiss Grady Little for handing him a team one     boneheaded move away from being a champion.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to georom4's comment:

    Tito needs to to kiss Grady Little for handing him a team one     boneheaded move away from being a champion.



    So let me get this straight.  Your argument is Tito shouldn't get credit for the WS because the previous manager who had nothing to do with assembling the roster would have won a WS if he didn't screw up horribly in the biggest game of the year?  Wow.

    Personally I think all of this manager talk is mostly a waste of time.  Manager's get too much credit when the team wins and too much blame when they lose.  This isn't the NBA or NFL.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    Tito needs to to kiss Grady Little for handing him a team one     boneheaded move away from being a champion.

     



    So let me get this straight.  Your argument is Tito shouldn't get credit for the WS because the previous manager who had nothing to do with assembling the roster would have won a WS if he didn't screw up horribly in the biggest game of the year?  Wow.

     

    Personally I think all of this manager talk is mostly a waste of time.  Manager's get too much credit when the team wins and too much blame when they lose.  This isn't the NBA or NFL.



    i actually agree with you...and tito did nothing to get those titles...but he did stay super calm when they were down 3-0 so that counts for something....but it was a very good team he inherited...agreed?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to georom4's comment:

    had to laugh at his statement about Jimenez and sticking with him despite him once again on his way to losing 20....playing .375 ball or so and back to his Philly ways...no stars to bail him out there...

    man i miss that guy's managerial wizardry...NOT



    I'm not sure who is more impessive "Francona" and his last place Indians, or Theo's last place Cubs :) 

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    Tito was excellent at managing personalities, the media, and keeping things behind closed doors. Which is a huge part of todays MLB with giant contracts, egos, and this market in Boston. I wasnt a big fan of his pitching moves or in some situations sticking with his guys for too long, or his "loyalty" if you will. 8 years is a long time in todays game and his and Theos time was up.

    Overall I think he was the right guy at the right time.

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    8 years was just long enough for Duquette's footprint to age out. Current Red Sox management is a zero confidence massive spending and terrible players' value outfit.




    Theo had a lot more to do with the 2nd championship than the 1st, but he made a lot of key moves in 2002 (offseason when he officially took over for Mike Port) and 2003 to bring in the difference makers the team needed.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    Duquette's teams didn't win anything.  The team Theo inherited from Duquette had plenty of talent.  It had also missed the playoffs three straight years. 

    Revisionism is always fun though.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    I think the main thing missing in the anti-Tito rhetoric is an understanding that managers, in this day and age, are somewhat expendable.  There are no "wizards" anymore.  Mike Scioscia is supposedly a "wizard" and his teams are perpetual underachievers and pretenders.  I guess maddon could be a "wizard", so, there's one ... But Joe Torre was no wizard.  He had great players.  Same with Francona.  I agree that Francona is not some sort of managerial genius.  he was, like most decent managers, in the right place at the right time, and did a few key things that may have helped put the club over the top, twice.  But that doesn't take away from the fact that he managed the club through two titles and just missed a third world series.    He wasn't the reason those clubs were succesful.  But he facilitated their success.  and thats what managers do these days, facilitate.  Or in Grady Little's case:  get in the way in the most crucial moment.  Its a players game, always has been.  Nowadays particularly so.  The Manager fosters an environment.  Thats about it.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    Tito is the managerial face of championship baseball in Boston.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Duquette's teams didn't win anything.  The team Theo inherited from Duquette had plenty of talent.  It had also missed the playoffs three straight years. 

    Revisionism is always fun though.



    Kind of funny, in a sad kind of way.  Apparently, for some of the folks in here, 2000-2002, when we missed the playoffs every year, were the Golden Age of RS BB.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    I think the main thing missing in the anti-Tito rhetoric is an understanding that managers, in this day and age, are somewhat expendable.  There are no "wizards" anymore.  Mike Scioscia is supposedly a "wizard" and his teams are perpetual underachievers and pretenders.  I guess maddon could be a "wizard", so, there's one ... But Joe Torre was no wizard.  He had great players.  Same with Francona.  I agree that Francona is not some sort of managerial genius.  he was, like most decent managers, in the right place at the right time, and did a few key things that may have helped put the club over the top, twice.  But that doesn't take away from the fact that he managed the club through two titles and just missed a third world series.    He wasn't the reason those clubs were succesful.  But he facilitated their success.  and thats what managers do these days, facilitate.  Or in Grady Little's case:  get in the way in the most crucial moment.  Its a players game, always has been.  Nowadays particularly so.  The Manager fosters an environment.  Thats about it.



    Yup. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    But as for Grady, I can't help thinking of the alternative. What if Pedro had gotten out of that jam and held on for the win after Grady's visit to the mound? Grady would have been praised everywhere, including on this board, for showing confidence in his  ace.

    Funny how things go.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Francona's Indians - last place and nowhere to hide...

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

     

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

     

    I think the main thing missing in the anti-Tito rhetoric is an understanding that managers, in this day and age, are somewhat expendable.  There are no "wizards" anymore.  Mike Scioscia is supposedly a "wizard" and his teams are perpetual underachievers and pretenders.  I guess maddon could be a "wizard", so, there's one ... But Joe Torre was no wizard.  He had great players.  Same with Francona.  I agree that Francona is not some sort of managerial genius.  he was, like most decent managers, in the right place at the right time, and did a few key things that may have helped put the club over the top, twice.  But that doesn't take away from the fact that he managed the club through two titles and just missed a third world series.    He wasn't the reason those clubs were succesful.  But he facilitated their success.  and thats what managers do these days, facilitate.  Or in Grady Little's case:  get in the way in the most crucial moment.  Its a players game, always has been.  Nowadays particularly so.  The Manager fosters an environment.  Thats about it.

     



    Yup. Couldn't have said it better myself.

     

    But as for Grady, I can't help thinking of the alternative. What if Pedro had gotten out of that jam and held on for the win after Grady's visit to the mound? Grady would have been praised everywhere, including on this board, for showing confidence in his  ace.

    Funny how things go.

     

     




    I disagree.

     

    Personallly, I would have thought it was stupid move, even if Perdo had managed to get out of that jam.

    The bullpen was doing a tremendous job, in the '03 playoffs.

    Embree and Timlin were flat-out shutting teams down.

    They should've been used again, in that situation, no questions asked.

     

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