Free Payroll...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Free Payroll...

    I've seen this phrase thrown around a lot today.  And several Sox fns are rather excited about it.  I've even seen some proposing free agency as a good place to spend it.

    Which might be the dumbest thing to say since, well, ever!

    I mean, are people really suggeting the Sox sign Shane Victorino?!!?  So you people are fine giving up Adrian Gonzalez to free payroll to get Victorino on the roster?!?! Really?!!?

    The last thing this team needs to do is get back into buying overpriced talent.   Isn't that how the Sox got into this mess??  It's like watching a man walk out of his last chemo sesion and scream "YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!! It's OVER!!! I need a smoke!!!!"

    By the way, how many have noticed the irony that RSN spent more time fawning over Adrian Gonzalez as a Padre and as an Essential Piece in Boston than they actually spent rooting for him in Boston?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    I hate free agency and what its done to the game. However, since it's part of the current game, use it, when it fills a void that your farm system didin't.
    Yes, I said sign Victorino if they trade Ellesbury.
    The guy's a winner, and a damned good player.
    So what? You're not going to spend 22 million a year on him.
    We were sold on Gonzalez, as a 40-50 homer guy, if he played in Boston.
    How many times did we hear, "He plays in Petco, and has a left field stroke, and would be deadly in Fenway."
    The reason we weren't enthralled was, 18 HRs in 2 years at Fenway, and hardly any big late inning hits.
    Plus, he had all the charisma of a meatloaf.
    Familiarity often breeds contempt. Or, the grass is always greener in the other fellow's yard.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    We were looking at about $28M after settling arbs and not counting Papi to stay even with this year. If we save $52M next year byt dumping these guys, we'd be under this year's total by about $80M.

    I am not for paying someobe else $20M x 7, but we can get some nice free agents at lesser terms.

    We could see some of these guys (I'm not saying I like all these guys)...

    LF/DH Cody Ross
    LF/RF  Torii Hunter (too old?/1 yr bridge deal?)
    CF/RF  Michael Bourn
    C/DH   Montero or Napoli
    SP  B McCarthy
    SP  A Sanchez (?)
    SP  S Marcum

    Or we can trade for some higher priced players like Jamie Shields or Justin Upton.

    We could extend Ellsbury (not my idea).

    We could keep Papi and do a lot of the above as well.

    We could extend Pedey, Salty, others...



     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE]Yes, I said sign Victorino if they trade Ellesbury. The guy's a winner, and a damned good player. So what? You're not going to spend 22 million a year on him. We were sold on Gonzalez, as a 40-50 homer guy, if he played in Boston. How many times did we hear, "He plays in Petco, and has a left field stroke, and would be deadly in Fenway." The reason we weren't enthralled was, 18 HRs in 2 years at Fenway, and hardly any big late inning hits. Plus, he had all the charisma of a meatloaf. Familiarity often breeds contempt. Or, the grass is always greener in the other fellow's yard.
    Posted by rightymclefty[/QUOTE]


    So naturally, the last guy didn't work out.  Nor the guy befoe him (Crawford).  Nor, well, quite a few of them in the last few years.   And you think the Sox need to get right back out there pimpin free agent dollars into their readily inflatable payroll? 

    Bad, bad idea.

    3 years from now, you'll have the same situation.


    And Shane Victorino, if you did not notice, has fallen off the planet this year at the plate.   And, outside of a 3 year stretch that ended in 2011, has never been anything special at the plate.  I have no idea  why you think he is a "winner," but I'm sure there are about 200 or 300 other MLB players who could meet that criteria.

    Oh, and he is also the last player the Sox need.  They have a CF, and the Flyin Hawaiian is a waste in a corner OF spot.

    You might be a huge Victorino fan.  Thst's OK.  I get that.  But he is not a good idea, and the Sox are probably better off avoiding long term deals right now, especially with the horrific free agent class coming up... 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE]I hate free agency and what its done to the game. However, since it's part of the current game, use it, when it fills a void that your farm system didin't. Yes, I said sign Victorino if they trade Ellesbury. The guy's a winner, and a damned good player. So what? You're not going to spend 22 million a year on him. We were sold on Gonzalez, as a 40-50 homer guy, if he played in Boston. How many times did we hear, "He plays in Petco, and has a left field stroke, and would be deadly in Fenway." The reason we weren't enthralled was, 18 HRs in 2 years at Fenway, and hardly any big late inning hits. Plus, he had all the charisma of a meatloaf. Familiarity often breeds contempt. Or, the grass is always greener in the other fellow's yard.
    Posted by rightymclefty[/QUOTE]

    In just about a year andthree-qurters worth of games with Boston (282), AGon put up these numbers:

    .321  42  203 
    85 2B+3B
    .382 OBP (Slightly higher than with SD)
    .513 SLG  (About the same as with SD)

    Pro-rate to about 162 games:
    .321 24  118
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE]We were looking at about $28M after settling arbs and not counting Papi to stay even with this year. If we save $52M next year byt dumping these guys, we'd be under this year's total by about $80M. I am not for paying someobe else $20M x 7, but we can get some nice free agents at lesser terms. We could see some of these guys (I'm not saying I like all these guys)... LF/DH Cody Ross LF/RF  Torii Hunter (too old?/1 yr bridge deal?) CF/RF  Michael Bourn C/DH   Montero or Napoli SP  B McCarthy SP  A Sanchez (?) SP  S Marcum Or we can trade for some higher priced players like Jamie Shields or Justin Upton. We could extend Ellsbury (not my idea). We could keep Papi and do a lot of the above as well. We could extend Pedey, Salty, others...
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Ellsbury hired Boras, which usually means "not amenable to an extension."

    Short-term guys are always a good free agent solution.  Big Papi can have his 2 year deal, as far as I am concerned.

    Now, if you are talking about trading for Upton, I am all in on that one. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Free Payroll... : Ellsbury hired Boras, which usually means "not amenable to an extension." Short-term guys are always a good free agent solution.  Big Papi can have his 2 year deal, as far as I am concerned. Now, if you are talking about trading for Upton, I am all in on that one. 
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    True on Boras, but they could outbid everyone once he becomes a FA. (I hope not.)

    I'd give Papi $23M/2 with max incentives allowed and a club option year 3 at $7M with a 3M buyout making it essentially a $26M/2 deal 
    (or $33M/3).

    If we truly get the prospects mentioned, I think we can afford to trade some top prospects to get Upton, if AZ is in rebuild mode. If they lose Montero, they may want Lava or Swihart bad.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreenPartyCelt. Show GreenPartyCelt's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Free Payroll... : True on Boras, but they could outbid everyone once he becomes a FA. (I hope not.) I'd give Papi $23M/2 with max incentives allowed and a club option year 3 at $7M with a 3M buyout making it essentially a $26M/2 deal  (or $33M/3). If we truly get the prospects mentioned, I think we can afford to trade some top prospects to get Upton, if AZ is in rebuild mode. If they lose Montero, they may want Lava or Swihart bad.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    Moon...Upton is hitting .273 in the National League against weaker pitching...I would prefer keeping a post-surgery Crawford for one more year to see if he could begin to earn his pennies....He looked good to me in his brief tour at Fenway playing with that injured elbow to boot...The Red Sox are going to have trouble signing top tier free agents because  of all the controversy that has gone down...To me this looks like an owner cutting his losses while fantasy trades dance in the heads of RSN...The amazing  duo of Ciriaco and Middlebrooks notwithstanding, I think the Red Sox will be rebuilding for far longer than its post-2004 WS fanbase is likely to tolerate...
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...



    (Josh) Hamilton though incredible, is not as healthy as AGon and would be dissected (eagerly) by our darling media the minute he hits a personal wall.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreenPartyCelt. Show GreenPartyCelt's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE](Josh) Hamilton though incredible, is not as healthy as AGon and would be dissected (eagerly) by our darling media the minute he hits a personal wall.
    Posted by EnchiladaT[/QUOTE]
    Exactly..Unfortunately, burrito, a lot of free agents are going to stay away from Boston like the plague...So why would you let an all-star like A-Gon go, and not give CC a chance to redeem himself when you might have major trouble filling such players' shoes...Why? because you are John Henry and you also have a struggling Liverpool franchise and you better start cutting your losses soon...I doubt JH is awake tonight thinking of free agents he could buy, unless its a striker to keep the sinking Liverpool boat afloat...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    Moon...Upton is hitting .273 in the National League against weaker pitching...I would prefer keeping a post-surgery Crawford for one more year to see if he could begin to earn his pennies....He looked good to me in his brief tour at Fenway playing with that injured elbow to boot...

    1) Upton was recovering from an injury this year. He is 25 and already has 4 seasons with a higher OPS than CC's career OPS.
    2) His career splits are about .800/.900, not .690/.810.
    3) I don't see a .306 OBP as encouraging for CC this year. Improving on horrible can still be pretty bad.

    The Red Sox are going to have trouble signing top tier free agents because  of all the controversy that has gone down...

    1) Maybe 1%-3% of all free agents sign for a lesser offer.
    2) I'm Ok with no big FA signing until a can't miss comes along.

    To me this looks like an owner cutting his losses while fantasy trades dance in the heads of RSN...The amazing  duo of Ciriaco and Middlebrooks notwithstanding, I think the Red Sox will be rebuilding for far longer than its post-2004 WS fanbase is likely to tolerate...

    I'd rather be rebuilding than repeating 2010-2011-2012 over and over again.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    Nobody should want AGon to leave but it is not like it is because LA is taking one of either Beckett or Crawford, the Dodgers are taking both!!! That is an offer one can't refuse.

    AGon and Crawford to LA or AGon and Beckett to LA? The deal does not happen.

    I don't worry about Hamilton wanting to play here, all players go for the top dollar. I worry our inept FO offers him that top-dollar contract.

    I like moon's mention of Shields and Montero (AZ).  However we are going to need a power hitter to be sure.... if we move Elles to get say an Upton we lose all of our speed and that is not a good thing.  Besides Upton is not a prolific masher, and we must have that.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    Besides Upton is not a prolific masher, and we must have that.

    Maybe not, but at 25, he is averaging 23 HRs and 36 (2B+3Bs) per 670 PAs so far.

    I don't think AZ wants Jacoby for Upton anyways, so we could have both for a year.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    I would be happy to aquire Upton, no problem. However we still need a bigger home-run hitter. Elles and Upton together in the outfield would be nice.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In response to "Free Payroll...": [QUOTE]I've seen this phrase thrown around a lot today.  And several Sox fns are rather excited about it.  I've even seen some proposing free agency as a good place to spend it. Which might be the dumbest thing to say since, well, ever! I mean, are people really suggeting the Sox sign Shane Victorino?!!?  So you people are fine giving up Adrian Gonzalez to free payroll to get Victorino on the roster?!?! Really?!!? The last thing this team needs to do is get back into buying overpriced talent.   Isn't that how the Sox got into this mess??  It's like watching a man walk out of his last chemo sesion and scream "YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!! It's OVER!!! I need a smoke!!!!" By the way, how many have noticed the irony that RSN spent more time fawning over Adrian Gonzalez as a Padre and as an Essential Piece in Boston than they actually spent rooting for him in Boston? Posted by notin[/QUOTE] One of your better posts, couldn't agree more. All the talk of blowing up the roster was not serious , at least as far as I was concerned. Sure, I wanted to see the problem children leave, but certainly not AG. He's been the bright spot on a tarnished team. I just don't know how to comprehend all this. Are we really supposed to trust this rookie GM that he knows what he is doing? Not this fan.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    I like moon's mention of Shields and Montero (AZ).  However we are going to need a power hitter to be sure.... if we move Elles to get say an Upton we lose all of our speed and that is not a good thing....

    We had about $28M to spend (not counting Papi) before the trade. Add about $60M and we are at about $87M to stay even...

    We can afford to pay for Shields after the trade ($9M & $12M) minus Aviles arb.
    We can afford to sign Montero.
    We can trade for Upton (and easily afford him at 12:$6.75M, 13:$9.75M, 14:$14.25M, 15:$14.5M ) without using Jacoby, but it will cost some dear prospects.

    We'd still have left over money (like maybe $57M), and be better off.

    With the $57M, we could sign Papi ($13M), Hamilton (25M) and Greinke (19M).


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Free Payroll... : Exactly..Unfortunately, burrito, a lot of free agents are going to stay away from Boston like the plague...So why would you let an all-star like A-Gon go, and not give CC a chance to redeem himself when you might have major trouble filling such players' shoes...Why? because you are John Henry and you also have a struggling Liverpool franchise and you better start cutting your losses soon...I doubt JH is awake tonight thinking of free agents he could buy, unless its a striker to keep the sinking Liverpool boat afloat...
    Posted by GreenPartyCelt[/QUOTE]

    If the money is there, he free agents will usually come.

    The real problem now, however, isn't the controversy. It's that the reaining team is looking pretty Caucasian.  I know a lot of peope think race doesn't play into free agency, but relly, there are players who want some commonality with their teammates (beyond being millionaies).   The Sox lost their Latino and their African American faces yesterday.   Pedro Ciriaco won't be the difference maker, either.

    In time, the Sox will fill these roles somewhere, and cerainly Latino star players are always available, as there are more and more of them.  But right now, we're looking pretty white, and that could have a free agency impact...
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    Interesting to note, Justin Upton was claimed on waivers, last night.
    I wonder which team put in the claim?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    I think we will make a strong play for Upton, and no softy, it won't be Jake.
     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SFBostonFan. Show SFBostonFan's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...


    To Notin: Re...The last thing this team needs to do is get back into buying overpriced talent.   Isn't that how the Sox got into this mess??  It's like watching a man walk out of his last chemo sesion and scream "YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!! It's OVER!!! I need a smoke!!!!

    I agree with you 100%...as there are numerous posts about this trade, I copied & pasted this from the Title Discussion The New Yankees of the West. As a SF fan, the Giants play the Dodgers as frequently as the Sox play the Yanks so I'll get to see these former Sox players frequently as I do, and really enjoy, Reddick & Coco Crisp with the A's. 

    Nick Punto...there shouldn't be a dry eye in the Sox fan base !!!   HA !!!

    I am a Sox fan first but a SF Giant fan too and as happy as I am with this trade & freedom from incredible financial burden, it's as if these players assuming the Sox were competitive, went to the Yankees. Still hope the Giants awesome pitching holds up as without that dummy, Melky Cabrera, because of performancing enhancing substance, their hitting is light.

    Going forward for the Sox, irrespective of having more money available, I say let's bite the bullet & forget about trying to get Hamilton from Rangers, King Felix from Seattle etc. & suffer for a couple of years & build the team with youngsters.  Forget about overloading our payroll with the Lackey's, Dice K's, Crawfords & Agon's & worrying they will stay healthy! The Yankees have done it but let's admit they are better than we are getting some talent from other teams.

    Let Tampa Bay be an inspiration as they seem to always be competitive the past few years with great pitching and just average hitting but developing players from their farm system. I can't think of any superstars either on Baltimore's team but they are definitely better than we are this year. So, our scouts should concentrate on great youthful prospects in college or, as you say, players outside the USA.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE]To Notin: Re...The last thing this team needs to do is get back into buying overpriced talent.   Isn't that how the Sox got into this mess??  It's like watching a man walk out of his last chemo sesion and scream "YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!! It's OVER!!! I need a smoke!!!! I agree with you 100%...as there are numerous posts about this trade, I copied & pasted this from the Title Discussion The New Yankees of the West. As a SF fan, the Giants play the Dodgers as frequently as the Sox play the Yanks so I'll get to see these former Sox players frequently as I do, and really enjoy, Reddick & Coco Crisp with the A's.  Nick Punto...there shouldn't be a dry eye in the Sox fan base !!!   HA !!! I am a Sox fan first but a SF Giant fan too and as happy as I am with this trade & freedom from incredible financial burden, it's as if these players assuming the Sox were competitive, went to the Yankees. Still hope the Giants awesome pitching holds up as without that dummy, Melky Cabrera , because of performancing enhancing substance, their hitting is light. Going forward for the Sox, irrespective of having more money available, I say let's bite the bullet & forget about trying to get Hamilton from Rangers, King Felix from Seattle etc. & suffer for a couple of years & build the team with youngsters.  Forget about overloading our payroll with the Lackey's, Dice K's, Crawfords & Agon's & worrying they will stay healthy! The Yankees have done it but let's admit they are better than we are getting some talent from other teams. Let Tampa Bay be an inspiration as they seem to always be competitive the past few years with great pitching and just average hitting but developing players from their farm system. I can't think of any superstars either on Baltimore's team but they are definitely better than we are this year. So, our scouts should concentrate on great youthful prospects in college or, as you say, players outside the USA.
    Posted by SFBostonFan[/QUOTE]

    Look for young player FAs to sign, or short term deals from here on out.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Free Payroll... : True on Boras, but they could outbid everyone once he becomes a FA. (I hope not.) I'd give Papi $23M/2 with max incentives allowed and a club option year 3 at $7M with a 3M buyout making it essentially a $26M/2 deal  (or $33M/3). If we truly get the prospects mentioned, I think we can afford to trade some top prospects to get Upton, if AZ is in rebuild mode. If they lose Montero, they may want Lava or Swihart bad.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I'm sure they will attempt to lock up Ellsbury.   Should they, if he wants Crawford money?   (He does, or at least Boras does.)

    If they lock Ellsbury up, that means the team might as well trade Jackie Bradley Jr., too.  He really doesn't look the same as a corner OF...
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Free Payroll...

    In Response to Re: Free Payroll...:
    [QUOTE]We were looking at about $28M after settling arbs and not counting Papi to stay even with this year. If we save $52M next year byt dumping these guys, we'd be under this year's total by about $80M. I am not for paying someobe else $20M x 7, but we can get some nice free agents at lesser terms. We could see some of these guys (I'm not saying I like all these guys)... LF/DH Cody Ross LF/RF  Torii Hunter (too old?/1 yr bridge deal?) CF/RF  Michael Bourn C/DH   Montero or Napoli SP  B McCarthy SP  A Sanchez (?) SP  S Marcum Or we can trade for some higher priced players like Jamie Shields or Justin Upton. We could extend Ellsbury (not my idea). We could keep Papi and do a lot of the above as well. We could extend Pedey, Salty, others...
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Montero just signed a long term extension and the Rays are not trading Shields to Boston, but as you mention, there ARE other options. 
     

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