Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:


    CC should be batting 2nd...... Thats a fact !!!... How can you take a player who's offensive game is about speed and stick him behind a 250lb turtle.....
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:
    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd : They will never go Ells, Crawford, Gonzo, Pedroia.....no way can you have 3 lefty batters in a row leading off.
    Posted by sox4life2280


    Pedroia 3rd.........
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    batting order voodoo..thats all it is....a player should hit his career avg no matter what order he's placed....i wanted CC second last yr because i thought that familiar spot would make him less tense.....but the lower you place him in the order, the less at bats he's going to have.....142 mil for a #9 hitter? I dont think so...
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    Of course Crawford should hit second.  Offense in baseball is about more than batting averages and splits vs. LHP.  Offense continues once you get on base...
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    I like Gordon but he also tweeted Josh came into spring trainning in great shape.
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:
    If Edes ever agreed with me, I'd have to seriously re-evaluate my position. (CC second vs RHPs is OK, but never ever vs LHPs.)
    Posted by moonslav59


    Moon, I've read your posts about Crawford's LHP splits and they are definitely not without merit.  But I'm wondering, how many runs difference are we talking over the course of a season if Crawford bats 9th against LHP versus batting 2nd? 

    There aren't as many LHP so Crawford wouldn't get as many ABs against lefties to begin with.  Crawford seems to have had the most success in the #2 hole, and seems to be the most comfortable there.  I think there something to be said for having the line up remain as consistent as possible for the everyday players.

    Also, having Ellsbury on base in front of him and the likes of Pedroia, Gonzalez, and Youkilis behind him might help to make him a more patient hitter.

    I like the idea of Crawford hitting 2nd. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:
    I also think he should bat second.  I can't imagine him hitting ninth, even against lefties, I think that would set him back.  I think if he bats second, he bats second, barring a health setback or something along those lines.  Ellsbury Crawford Pedroia Gonzalez Youkilis Ortiz That would be my top 6.
    Posted by Skadude22


    Bingo.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    I have no problem with Crawford batting second , as long as his OBP warrants his staying there.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    This is a conundrum. Although I think CC feels most comfortable in the number 2 spot, it just seems that Pedey belongs 2nd in the order. I kind of agree with Moon that perhaps 3rd would be a good spot for him as he would see better pitches batting in front of Agon, but the 3 spot is usually reserved for the bigger power guys.
    Another option would be to lead off with Pedey, batting Ellsbury 3rd, unleess his power numbers last year were a fluke.
    it would look like this:

    Pedey
    CC
    Ells
    Agon
    Papi
    Youk
    Ross/Sweeney
    Salty/Shoppach
    Aviles/Punto

    Althought that's 4 LH in a row, all but CC can handle LHP.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:
    Pedey batting 4th? Again credibility shot... common man get a hold of yourself!
    Posted by BurritoT

    Burr,  you know me. You know I do not want CC up 2nd. I have been saying for about a year now, he should bat no higher than 6th vs RHPs and that he should be benched vs most LHPs, but won't be because of the contract, and therefore should bat 9th (vs LHPs).

    Somebody here suggested CC bat 2nd, and I said that vs RHPs, the idea has "some merit". That's hardly a ringing endoresement on my part. I mentioned that batting CC 2nd vs RHPs meant somebody else (more deserving than CC) would get demoted, like Papi and Youk. I listed out a possible line-up with CC 2nd, and I place AGon 3rd (not Pedey) because AGon is much better than Pedey vs RHPs. I put Pedey 4th instead of Youk, because he is better than Youk is right now with the bat, both in terms of BA and power vs RHPs recently. Plus, are you aware that Pedey's best slot over his career has not been the #2 slot?
    Slots with over 130 PAs:
    1st  .253/.318/.375/.693
    2nd .311/.381/.472/.853
    4th .397/.439/.678/1.117
    9th .304/.382/.430/.811

    Again, I do not want CC up 2nd. I j.ust pointed out that the idea has merit vs RHPs ONLY.



     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:
    Why not flip CC and Els between 1st and 2nd depending if the pitcher is right or left handed?
    Posted by ampoule

    Because vs LHPs, we have about 9-10 better hitters and OBP guys than CC out of our 11 best hitters on the team.

    CC has a career .318 OBP vs LHPs. That may be good enough to bat 2nd on TB, but it not even close to good enough here in Boston. And, he has not been getting any better at it over the most recent 3-4 years, so I see no reason to expect a sudden turn-around this year, and I see no reason to demote Youk and Papi vs RHPs either.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    I also think he should bat second.  I can't imagine him hitting ninth, even against lefties, I think that would set him back.  I think if he bats second, he bats second, barring a health setback or something along those lines.  

    Ellsbury
    Crawford
    Pedroia
    Gonzalez
    Youkilis
    Ortiz

    That would be my top 6.

    Manye here are crying about CC being "set back" or emotionally hurt by being placed 6th or 8th or 9th. Ask yourself these questions:

    How will Papi feel being moved down to 6th after his 2011 season? He's already upset about being disrespected.

    How will Youk feel about being demoted from 4th to 5th, especially against LHPs, where he is our best hitter?

    How will Pedey feel about batting 3rd? He has a career .741 OPS in the 3 slot.

    It makes no sense whatsoever to bat CC 1st or 2nd vs LHPs. NONE! 
    What use is speed when you can't get on base?
    Per 650 PAs, here is CC's numbers vs LHPs:
    .262/.308/.375/.684
    HRs  8
    2Bs  30
    3Bs  9
    SBs  22
    CS   9

    As you can see, his speed is greatly minimized vs LHPs.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    CC should be batting 2nd...... Thats a fact !!!... How can you take a player who's offensive game is about speed and stick him behind a 250lb turtle....

    The fact is, CC rots vs LHPs.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    I loved the idea of "Crawberry" last winter. It was maybe a breakthrough concept. Maybe the numbers guys came up with some data implications which had not been discovered or implemented before and that is why they gave Crawford such a great contract...etc. My thinking was that there had to be a reason. Maybe I wasn't seeing something. It had to be Crawberry right!

    We were wrong. Theo had some money burning a hole in his pocket and the organization wanted to ensure that they were back in the playoffs again. Soon. They had a team which was optimized ( they thought ) to win now and they wanted to maximize it.

    I understand that Crawford was injured and that probably affected his performance a lot but it should be sinking in by now that the same injury could be affecting his performance for the rest of his career at least some even after the surgury. We can't expect him to be the same player. He may not be.

    And we should also understand by now that even if he replicated his past performances there is no way he would be worth that contract. He has never been the defender he is reputed to be and never will be going forward in Fenway in particular with the speedy Ellsbury by his side. He is not a gold glove defender in LF. In reality he never has been and now that he has to defend Fenway's quirks I don't see him being that guy going forward.

    All that said, I sincerely like Carl Crawford and wish him the very best. I hope we cut the guy some slack. He played with an injury all year and didn't complain once. The guy is a class act.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:
    Of course Crawford should hit second.  Offense in baseball is about more than batting averages and splits vs. LHP.  Offense continues once you get on base...
    Posted by notin

    He doesn't get on base vs LHPs: that's the problem here.
    Career: .308
    2011:    .249
    2010:    .312 (HIs "career year")
    2009:    .325
    2008:   .293

    Nothing here excites me. Speed in the 2 slot does not outweigh the fact that he can not get on base enough for a team like the Sox. We need high OBPs in front of AGon, Youk and Papi. 

    Besides, 22 SBs and 9 CS vs LHPs over 650 PAs is not that great of a speed difference maker, in fact with his CS%  vs LHPs, it is actually a negative influence, not a plus.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    The truth is that there is no good place to hit Crawford except possibly 7th, 8th or 9th. He just isn't good enough to fill other slots until he proves he's healthy again.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliamsjr. Show hankwilliamsjr's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    There is an idiot who had Ortiz sitting or batting in the bottom part of the lineup against LP. He bumpst his own lame thread.

    Ellsbury should be traded and Crawford, who costs 20M and is going nowhere, needs to bat first.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from beavis. Show beavis's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    John Henry should personally call Carl and articulate that the two hole is his...Carl needs to feel wanted...sounds pretty basic, but it is the right thing to do...this may get Carl to get off to a good year...
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    Moon, I've read your posts about Crawford's LHP splits and they are definitely not without merit.  But I'm wondering, how many runs difference are we talking over the course of a season if Crawford bats 9th against LHP versus batting 2nd? 

    There aren't as many LHP so Crawford wouldn't get as many ABs against lefties to begin with.  Crawford seems to have had the most success in the #2 hole, and seems to be the most comfortable there.  I think there something to be said for having the line up remain as consistent as possible for the everyday players.

    Also, having Ellsbury on base in front of him and the likes of Pedroia, Gonzalez, and Youkilis behind him might help to make him a more patient hitter.

    I like the idea of Crawford hitting 2nd. 

    Last year, we faced 55 LH'd starters (34%). That's a very signifcant amount of games and PAs. CC does hit some LHPs well, so maybe we are talking about 25% of the games that he is not even close to being justified slotted 2nd... NOT EVEN CLOSE! Over the corse of a season our #2 slot gets about 770 PAs, so we are talking about over 190+ PAs.

    Last year we got a .371 OBP from our 2 slot. Should we really change that to .333?
    Crawford:
    Career: .333
    vs RHPs: .343
    vs LHPs: .308

    Here's the breakdown of lost men on base over 770 PAs:
    2011: .371 (On base293 per  767 PAs
                .393 Pedey (226/576)
                .351 Others (67/191)
    Give CC 700 PAs in the 2 slot and give the others 1 .350 OBP lie last year:
                 .308 CC  (215/700)
                 .351 others (25/70)
       Total: .312 (240/770)
    That's a loss of 53 men on base over 770 PAs. Even if CC steals 70 bases, it wouldn't make up for 53 less men on base in front of AGon, Youk and Papi.

    And, these numbers are based on CC's career numbers, not his most recent numbers (which are worse, particularly vs LHPs.)

    This seems so clear to me. I find it hard to believe so many posters here are for this idea. Maybe it is because, as fans, we have been deprived of watching speed on our team for so long, there is a tendency to dream about how it would be so nice to see us have it for once.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:
    I loved the idea of "Crawberry" last winter. It was maybe a breakthrough concept. Maybe the numbers guys came up with some data implications which had not been discovered or implemented before and that is why they gave Crawford such a great contract...etc. My thinking was that there had to be a reason. Maybe I wasn't seeing something. It had to be Crawberry right! We were wrong. Theo had some money burning a hole in his pocket and the organization wanted to ensure that they were back in the playoffs again. Soon. They had a team which was optimized ( they thought ) to win now and they wanted to maximize it. I understand that Crawford was injured and that probably affected his performance a lot but it should be sinking in by now that the same injury could be affecting his performance for the rest of his career at least some even after the surgury. We can't expect him to be the same player. He may not be. And we should also understand by now that even if he replicated his past performances there is no way he would be worth that contract. He has never been the defender he is reputed to be and never will be going forward in Fenway in particular with the speedy Ellsbury by his side. He is not a gold glove defender in LF. In reality he never has been and now that he has to defend Fenway's quirks I don't see him being that guy going forward. All that said, I sincerely like Carl Crawford and wish him the very best. I hope we cut the guy some slack. He played with an injury all year and didn't complain once. The guy is a class act.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom

    He is a class act and a very hard worker. Hiswinter  work-out routine here in Houston is legendary. I think he will return to his norms this year and next, then slowly decline.

    I was against CC batting 1st or 2nd last year as well. His numbers do not warrant it. This is not TB's line-up. If moving him down in the line-up hurts his ego and causes less production, then so be it. The plus side doesn't even come close to overcoming the negatives of turning our 2 slot from a .370-.390 OBP to a .330 OBP (.308 vs LHPs). Add to that the effects of moving Youk and Papi down a notch and taking Pedey out of his comfort slot, it just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from DeweyCBoston. Show DeweyCBoston's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:


    add 1 more to the just bat crawford #2, it ts the only way to go imho!
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    Crawford (Plate approach for OBP, not for #3 hitter 20M a year OPS)
    Pedroia
    AGon
    Youk
    Ortiz
    a series of nobodies of hitting

    Ellsbury should have been traded by now, and that will become evident during this 30 million a year for Crawford and Ellsbury 2012.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd:
      Last year, we faced 55 LH'd starters (34%). That's a very signifcant amount of games and PAs. CC does hit some LHPs well, so maybe we are talking about 25% of the games that he is not even close to being justified slotted 2nd... NOT EVEN CLOSE! Over the corse of a season our #2 slot gets about 770 PAs, so we are talking about over 190+ PAs. Last year we got a .371 OBP from our 2 slot. Should we really change that to .333? Crawford: Career: .333 vs RHPs: .343 vs LHPs: .308 Here's the breakdown of lost men on base over 770 PAs: 2011: .371 (On base293 per  767 PAs             .393 Pedey (226/576)             .351 Others (67/191) Give CC 700 PAs in the 2 slot and give the others 1 .350 OBP lie last year:              .308 CC  (215/700)              .351 others (25/70)    Total: .312 (240/770) That's a loss of 53 men on base over 770 PAs. Even if CC steals 70 bases, it wouldn't make up for 53 less men on base in front of AGon, Youk and Papi. And, these numbers are based on CC's career numbers, not his most recent numbers (which are worse, particularly vs LHPs.) This seems so clear to me. I find it hard to believe so many posters here are for this idea. Maybe it is because, as fans, we have been deprived of watching speed on our team for so long, there is a tendency to dream about how it would be so nice to see us have it for once.
    Posted by moonslav59


    I'm not sure you can look at it as simplistically as that Moon. For one, don't you think with the better protection hitting around him that his OBP is likely to improve? Plus if Ells is on base, Crawford's likely to see more fastballs.

    But even it didn't, the 53 less men on base in front of Papi, Youk, and Agon from the #2 spot would be somewhat made up for in Pedroia batting in front of them in the #3 slot, wouldn't it?

    Also, the increased production from the #6 slot would compensate for some of that.

    I understand that the guys at the top of the line up get more ABs, but my feeling is that while you may be better off in one regard by making a line up change, that benefit will be cancelled out by weakening another part of your line up.

    That's why I was wondering how many runs difference we are talking about over the course of the season, not just from the #2 hole, but from the team altogether. My understanding is that there wouldn't be much of a difference, but I honestly don't know.

    And I mentioned one of the reasons for batting Crawford 2nd was because that's where he seems most comfortable.  It's not to protect his ego, it's to help his comfort level, hence his confidence level.   There's a difference, IMO.   Baseball players are very much creatures of habit.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes says bat Crawford 2nd

    I like this 2 vs. righties, 9 versus lefties idea.  While having two lefties in a row leading off is unorthodox, it could really wreak havoc vs. righties, especially with the Crawbury speed factor and then a veritable murderer's row behind them.  But, it just doesn't stack up vs. lefties.  So, drop him to 9 where his poor OBP will be less of a factor and he and Ells are still back to back pressure.  
     
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