Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

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    Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    by Gordon Edes/ESPN
    Matsuzaka can't blame injuries. He can't hide behind being out of shape. Or the ball being different in Japan. Or America being different from Japan.
    The Red Sox have been beyond patient with him and afforded him every advantage, from masseur to chef to interpreter, plane tickets and town car and housing allowance. He has an agent whose menu of services, from physical conditioning to psychological counseling, is without rival, and if he has not availed himself of those services, that's on him.

    He can't accuse the Sox of trying to Americanize him because then we should accuse them of doing the same with every Latin kid who has ever come here to play ball, too. The difference in pitching in Japan, where you pitch once a week, and in the big leagues, where you take the mound once every five days, is like the difference between college ball and the big leagues.

    He had a pitching coach who studied Japanese before he got here so that he could talk to him, and a catcher who put in countless hours of study so that he could do for him what he tries to do for every pitcher on the staff: make him better. And when Jason Varitek sat down with him, the message was not, "This is how you do it" but "What do you want to do?''
    The next time he walks by a mirror, Matsuzaka should remember that and ask himself what has he tried to do in the past five years to signal to his teammates a desire to fit in, to talk with them, to at least be accessible enough that his manager, Terry Francona, no longer laments he can't even have a casual conversation with him without the use of an interpreter.
    Do you think the blame for Dice-K’s struggles falls squarely on his shoulders, or should the Red Sox be more accommodating and just let Dice-K be Dice-K?
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]bottom line is perhaps he's just isn't as good as we thought he'd be and certainly it's all on him...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]
    I disagree, its not HIS fault he was never as good as OWNERSHIP  thought he was. Thats ownerships fault for signing a player who goes out and pitches every 5th day but is really just a marketing tool in Asia. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    I don't see the point of taking him to task.  No, he hasn't been as good as advertised.  But, I don't see or hear him making excuses or spinning anything.  He has been straight up about his failures and his dissapointment in letting the club down.  I agree with Jamesey that, if anything, the FO can be taken to task for shelling out the 50 million dollar posting fee (since his salary is actually about right on value for his production over these past 4 years).  I also take the fan base to task for believing the hype to the point that they are just so enraged and judgemental that he has not performed up to the lofty expectations.  He wouldn't be the first pitcher to have a couple solid years and then flame out.  But, to apply these totally conjectural negative attitudes to Matsuzaka is just piling on b*tching about him, when it is not necessary.  

    He has not performed well for the past 2 seasons.  Period.  Why all the venom?  Unecessary.
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    He's being made a scapegoat by the media and many of the fans here.
    The problem with the Sox is no more the fault of Dice-K than Youk. This team oveall su.cks right now and virtually everyone needs to be held accountable.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from agone. Show agone's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    how about some equal venom thrown at BECKETT and LACKEY.
    most of us know why the A-BOMB was used on JAPAN and not GERMANY.

    and lately i've been using the F-BOMB on THEO.
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]I don't see the point of taking him to task.  No, he hasn't been as good as advertised.  But, I don't see or hear him making excuses or spinning anything.  He has been straight up about his failures and his dissapointment in letting the club down.  I agree with Jamesey that, if anything, the FO can be taken to task for shelling out the 50 million dollar posting fee (since his salary is actually about right on value for his production over these past 4 years).  I also take the fan base to task for believing the hype to the point that they are just so enraged and judgemental that he has not performed up to the lofty expectations.  He wouldn't be the first pitcher to have a couple solid years and then flame out.  But, to apply these totally conjectural negative attitudes to Matsuzaka is just piling on b*tching about him, when it is not necessary.   He has not performed well for the past 2 seasons.  Period.  Why all the venom?  Unecessary.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    You make a very good and often overlooked point here...The fan base bought into the idea that he was the Japanese version of Pedro Martinez in his prime. stoopid...
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]Who doesn't agree? That's really the question. The guy was brought over here at a total cost of 18 million per season (9 on the books per year on average) and is not even a mediocre pitcher. In fact, he's not even justifiable as a #5. I'll take Wakefield as the starter over him anyday of the week and this goes back 2 seasons. This is easily Theo's worst pitching investment and probably the worst one in Sox history.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]


    wrong; LACKEY  will turn out to be THEO'S WORST pitching investment.
    btw, DICE-K was the responsibility of the whole front office; THEO skates on that one.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    My problem with DiceK is it appears he hasn't done enough to try to fit in -- speak the language. When an American player goes to Japan, I would expect them to try to learn the language to communicate with teammates. So if a foreign player comes here, I'd expect the same. It might seem minor, but over time I think it has an effect on how much he feels part of the team and being able to use teammates as support when he's struggling.

    The problem the Red Sox had is this. If he pitched as often here as he did in Japan, then they should have left him a lone. But because the rotations are different here, his program needed to be adjusted. And, the history of Japan pitchers has been they excel early then fade.

    I think the next time a pitcher likes him comes along, both sides need to get together and make sure they're all on the same page about training and routine, etc., before a contract is signed.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    Edes is a complete lackey to keep access.
     
    Did he take big bust John Slackey to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox? Did he hammer Lackey for being the biggest excuse maker for every lousy outing, wich are typical.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from cglassanos. Show cglassanos's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    So... the question was "Do you agree?"

    My answer: Agree... with what?  That Gordon Edes has taken Dice-K to task? Yes, it is plain to see since he wrote it and then put it on ESPN.com/Boston.

    Or did you mean, "Do you agree that Dice-K should be taken to task in the media?"

    My answer:  Yes, he is terrible and has done everything under the sun to infuriate his employers (I'm talking about his behavior outside of the lines, not his terrible pitching).

    Or did you mean, "Do you agree that Dice-K should be taken to task by the Boston Red Sox?"

    My answer: Yes, he is terrible and has done everything under the sun to infuriate his employers (I'm talking about his behavior in and outside of the lines here).  Who cares what he does afterwards because the Red Sox are now planning for a future without him regardless of whether he figures into the rotation again this year even at the #5 spot.  They're moving to a contingency plan and you better believe it.

    Ask clearer questions, especially if you're starting a thread.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]Edes is a complete lackey to keep access.   Did he take big bust John Slackey to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox? Did he hammer Lackey for being the biggest excuse maker for every lousy outing, wich are typical.
    Posted by BaseballGM[/QUOTE]

    A stupid comparison.

    Dice-K is in his fourth season in Boston. He didn't write this two starts into Dice-K's second season. He waited until there was a track record.

    Lackey's 4.40 ERA and 14-11 record was about the same kind of first season Dice-K had in Boston 15-12, 4.40 ERA.  Were you calling Dice-K names and ripping him in every post after his first season in Boston like you're doing with Lackey?
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    A stupid comparison.

    Dice-K is in his fourth season in Boston.

    Hey, Gordon. No, Gordon, it's not a stupid comparison. Did you note that DiceK's first year was pretty good, and his second year was far from poor? No you didn't. Do you hate "japs", Gordon? How about Ellsbury and his poor communication despite a wide open door and public relations people to help with that?

    DiceK had two decent years, was injured in year 3, and here he starts his 4th year. Red Sox fans and bigotry is deep seated and always has been. DiceK was roasted in his first two years, even though they were quite decent.

    Lackey's a big fat overrated bum, Gordon. He was paid to be a #1 or #2 starter, and he's going to be lucky to be a #4 starter.

    If you aren't Gordon, may apologies, but call him and get a room with him.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    DiceK's first year: 15-12, 4.40 ERA, 204.2 IP, 1.324 WHIP.
    Lackey's first year: 14-11, 4.40 ERA, 215 IP, 1.419 WHIP

    If DiceK was pretty good his first year, then I guess Lackey was pretty good too.

    DiceK had an excellent second year. Lackey's second year is two starts old. So we'll see how it goes.

    Ellsbury isn't part of the discussion, softy, but of course, you like to throw any crp out there and not make an intelligent argument.

    Beyond that, you can take your racist implications and shove 'em up your azz. I've consistently defended DiceK and rooted for him. I've never call him names like you like to do, which is evident of your fifth-grade mentality.

    I still root for DiceK and would like nothing more than to see him regroup and have a great year to prove his critics wrong. 


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    The big difference with Lackey and Dice-K is that the Sox had no legitimate comparisons to understand exactly what they were getting with Dice-K - someday teams will realize that the translation from Japan to US baseball doesn't usually work except in phenominal cases like Ichiro or Matsui.  Pitchers almost never live up to their billing. 

    With Lackey I think going from a pitchers ball park to a hitters ball park has hurt him somewhat.  However he never was a truly outstanding pitcher for the Angels, even though many of his starts were against a weaker AL West.  The Sox got exactly what he was - a mediocre pitcher that will give you 12-15 wins a year and nothing more.  They just got a bit too trigger happy with the size of the contract they offered.

    Both of them having average years for the Sox would pretty much guarantee a pennant if Lester/Buck and Beckett pitch up to their average potential also. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    With Lackey I think going from a pitchers ball park to a hitters ball park has hurt him somewhat.  However he never was a truly outstanding pitcher for the Angels, even though many of his starts were against a weaker AL West.  The Sox got exactly what he was - a mediocre pitcher that will give you 12-15 wins a year and nothing more.  They just got a bit too trigger happy with the size of the contract they offered.



    In all honesty, I wasn't a fan of Lackey's contract either. But I think you're overstating it when you say ... never a truly outstanding pitcher. He did lead the league with a 3.01 ERA one year. And his stretch from 2005-09 was 69-38 with a 3.49 ERA is pretty damn good.

    Yes, many of his starts were against the mediocre A.L. West. But think about it, when he pitches against another Division, he had to pitch against the Yankees and Red Sox. If the A.L. West was that weak, the Sox didn't have to face that sort of pitching. And in the division, remember, the Sox and Yankees pitchers don't pitch against themselves. The Division tougher for other A.L. East teams because they had to face both the Sox and Yankees. The Sox and Yankees have had to just face the other. Prior to 2007, the Rays stunk. The Orioles have been sub.-500 and the Blue Jays have been up and down. 

    I've posted this before. Lackey was better than mediocre last year if you break down the number of his good to great starts and compare them to other top pitchers. The reason his ERA was as high was just two more bad starts, compared to Lester, and when he was good to great, he still wasn't as domnant as Lester. (Lackey easily could have had three or four more wins. He had no-decisions in eight games where he posted a combined ERA of 2.59)

    Like I said. I  never liked Lackey's contract, but I'm not going to use it to rate him, just like I never used how much the Sox paid to get DiceK in rating him.Let's see how it goes this year. I'm not ready to give up on him. Just like I'm not ready to give up on DiceK. I still have hope that they both turn it around.
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    He can't accuse the Sox of trying to Americanize him because then we should accuse them of doing the same with every Latin kid who has ever come here to play ball, too. The difference in pitching in Japan, where you pitch once a week, and in the big leagues, where you take the mound once every five days, is like the difference between college ball and the big leagues.

    Bigoted comment from Gordon "homey" Edes.

    Gordon, I mean Roy, don't call me after some old poster you didn't like. Now, your comparison to Lackey is bush league because Lackey hasn't had a single critic in the homey media who has hammered at him with the bigoted comments. Lackey makes excuses for every poor outing, and I guarantee you haven't called him out for that "5th grader" nonsense.

    As for taking this and shoving this, you are mighty angry about being called a spade. That's because the shoe fits.

    If you supported DiceK you wouldn't make the comments you have made. Like most Boston fans, you pretend to support Japanese players and then love bigoted articels from "give me access" hacks like Edes.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diamondtalk. Show Diamondtalk's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    Matsuzaka was overhyped right from the get-go.    Dice-K mania no longer exists.     He's a myth.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    I tend to agree slightly with those that suggest Dice-K draws extra venom from the media because of his limiting their access and part of it is the fanfare which he came to Boston with.

    The story with Matsuzaka is clouded IMO. His first two years frankly were pretty darn good for a player transition into baseball's highest level. In fact 2008 when measured by the more traditional yardsticks of ERA and W-L was outstanding. The elephant in the room of course was his WHIP, which was a reflection of his nibbling style which created a lot of walks.

    2009-2010 were season marked by injury. 2009 showed cracks in the RS and Matsuzaka's relationship as Dice-K whined about some of the RS adjsutments they made to his work regimine and Farrell's taking him to task in return.

    But the media has also jumped all over the guy for pitching through injuries and not telling the RS soon enough. Far from consistent treatment by the way considering how players who complain about injuries have been treated.

    And this latest "taking to task"? It is far to ask where is the critique for John Lackey who has been totally ineffective to start this season. And frankly comparing Dice-K's MLB rookie season to John Lackey's first season in Boston is weak because the adjustments the two faced are night and day.

    Yes it gets alarming anytime a pitcher is now two plus seasons removed from his 18-3 - 2.90 ERA season. But most often with pitchers this age it is mechanics and mechanics caused by wear and tear and not some character flaw that is the root of these problems.

    Edes as is often the case when he takes someone to task has made it somewhat more personal than it needs to be.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexWrecks. Show TexWrecks's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    I can really understand the frustration with Dice-k, however, all the second guessing about getting him in the forst place is ridiculous. There were alot of teams jockeying to get him. He seemed like the real deal and his first year was pretty damn good.

    Aside from Nomo, I can't help but feel that the pitchers from Asia are usually a flash-in-the-pan. They're good for a short time, then hitters catch on, then it's over.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    Well said, Katz.
     
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    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]Who doesn't agree? That's really the question. The guy was brought over here at a total cost of 18 million per season (9 on the books per year on average) and is not even a mediocre pitcher. In fact, he's not even justifiable as a #5. I'll take Wakefield as the starter over him anyday of the week and this goes back 2 seasons. This is easily Theo's worst pitching investment and probably the worst one in Sox history.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    But Eric Ortiz says "Dice-K might be the best No. 5 starter ever. "

    http://www.nesn.com/2011/01/2011-red-sox-will-challenge-1927-yankees-for-title-of-greatest-team-in-major-league-history.html#comment-6a0115709f071f970b01538dddbc12970b
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]I don't see the point of taking him to task.  No, he hasn't been as good as advertised.  But, I don't see or hear him making excuses or spinning anything.  He has been straight up about his failures and his dissapointment in letting the club down.  I agree with Jamesey that, if anything, the FO can be taken to task for shelling out the 50 million dollar posting fee (since his salary is actually about right on value for his production over these past 4 years).  I also take the fan base to task for believing the hype to the point that they are just so enraged and judgemental that he has not performed up to the lofty expectations.  He wouldn't be the first pitcher to have a couple solid years and then flame out.  But, to apply these totally conjectural negative attitudes to Matsuzaka is just piling on b*tching about him, when it is not necessary.   He has not performed well for the past 2 seasons.  Period.  Why all the venom?  Unecessary.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    Exactly right.   If someone IN THE KNOW WITH ACCESS TO THE MAN (which excludes all of us) makes a case about Matsuzaka being....I don't know....stubborn about change, be it pitching style, conditioning, whatever the latest gossip is....it still is grotesque that people demonise him the way some do.

    The guy was a national hero from his teens in a country where "face" is paramount, signed a huge contract with a famous team in the home of his chosen sport....do people think that he wants to fail?  That he's dogging it?  That if he's traded in a mutual salary dump for another struggling player like Zito it will earn him respect in Japan?

    That's absurd, and totally counterproductive. 






     
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    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]I can really understand the frustration with Dice-k, however, all the second guessing about getting him in the forst place is ridiculous. There were alot of teams jockeying to get him. He seemed like the real deal and his first year was pretty damn good. Aside from Nomo, I can't help but feel that the pitchers from Asia are usually a flash-in-the-pan. They're good for a short time, then hitters catch on, then it's over.
    Posted by TexWrecks[/QUOTE]

    Re Asian pitchers being usually flash-in-the-pans....is that true?  Not challenging, asking.  In most cases I think they had to play 10 years in Japan before being free to move to MLB - though the posting system has changed that - so many were in their 30s before arriving.

    Matsuzaka, Nomo, Irabu, Hasegawa, Okajima, Kuroda, Saito.....are they the elite group?  Overall a pretty solid book of work.

    Is Oki's steady decline from age 31-34 due to his flashing pan or his turning odometer?  Or maybe a bit of both?



     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jamesey271975. Show jamesey271975's posts

    Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?

    In Response to Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Gordon Edes takes Daisuke Matsuzaka to task for his disappointing tenure with the Red Sox. Do you agree? : He and Boras wanted a lot more money than the Sox would pony up, Dice thought he was better than the sox management did.
    Posted by jarretfromportsmouth[/QUOTE]

    Oh well i guess he's the only professional athlete on the planet who wanted a bigger contract. You cant be serious? Do me a favor mate. 

     

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