Great game plan, guys

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Great game plan, guys

    It cannot be an accident or even the stubbornness of Salty that virtually every pitch in the first inning up to and including the grand slam dinger was a fast ball.  I think maybe two or three of those pitches were changeups, and none of them were hit.  Sliders? None. 

    This has to have been under the direct instructions of Nieves if not Nieves and Farrell.  Give them heat.  Establish your authority.  No breaking balls except as waste pitches. 

    So what happens as the result of a steady diet of fastballs?  Two singles, a walk and a dinger for 4 runs. 

    Then what happens?  OK, now you can throw sliders and changeups, both of which, I might add, Wilson seems to throw with some ability.  He gives up a ground ball single and gets two outs to end the inning.  The he goes three more innings against the same lineup and gives up 1 run on a single, a stolen base, and another single. 

    I am by no means an expert on MLB pitching.  So, please, someone else set me straight and explain how there is method in the instructions clearly given to Salty.     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaffyDan. Show DaffyDan's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    I don't know what game you're watching. Webster could not control his fastball in the first inning and threw a ton of change-ups and breaking balls. 


    The announcer can't stop harping on how Webster has 19 swings and misses in the first 4 innings. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    In response to DaffyDan's comment:

    I don't know what game you're watching. Webster could not control his fastball in the first inning and threw a ton of change-ups and breaking balls. 


    The announcer can't stop harping on how Webster has 19 swings and misses in the first 4 innings. 



    I watched very carefully.  Through the dinger by Martinez he threw almost all fastballs and maybe 2 or 3 changeups, none of which are hit.  With the very next batter, Webster began to use his slider plus a changeup now and then and some fastballs.  Beginning with that very next batter, still in the first inning, he got two more outs while giving up a single.  Then he got through one out if the fifth while giving up one run.  The fastball hit for the dinger was at the bottom of the zone and could easily have been called a ball, but Martinzez knew it was coming and nailed it. 

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaffyDan. Show DaffyDan's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    Here's the pitch breakdown. Webster threw 47% changeups to lefties, and 36% changeups + sliders to righties in the game.

    Since he threw well over 30 pitches in the first, for your argument to be true, then he threw almost nothing but changeups and sliders in the later innings. (He didn't).  82 total. 35 offspeed.

    http://brooksbaseball.net/tabs.php?player=543903&gFilt=&time=month&minmax=ci&var=usage&s_type=2&endDate=06/23/2013&startDate=06/21/2013

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    Always good to mix up your pitches and not be too predictable. But it sounds like you are trying to make excuses for Webster. He has failed miserably twice in a row.  

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaffyDan. Show DaffyDan's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    Furthermore, Webster missed the strikezone with over 54% of the time with his fourseam and 25% with his sinker. If he can't locate his fastball better, it won't matter what pitches he throws. 

    Pitch outcomes

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    It cannot be an accident or even the stubbornness of Salty that virtually every pitch in the first inning up to and including the grand slam dinger was a fast ball.  I think maybe two or three of those pitches were changeups, and none of them were hit.  Sliders? None. 

    This has to have been under the direct instructions of Nieves if not Nieves and Farrell.  Give them heat.  Establish your authority.  No breaking balls except as waste pitches. 

    So what happens as the result of a steady diet of fastballs?  Two singles, a walk and a dinger for 4 runs. 

    Then what happens?  OK, now you can throw sliders and changeups, both of which, I might add, Wilson seems to throw with some ability.  He gives up a ground ball single and gets two outs to end the inning.  The he goes three more innings against the same lineup and gives up 1 run on a single, a stolen base, and another single. 

    I am by no means an expert on MLB pitching.  So, please, someone else set me straight and explain how there is method in the instructions clearly given to Salty.     




    On the GS, he missed the target but the pitch was not up, it was down.  Vmart did not miss. Don't over think it.  He could not locate the fastball and it cost him.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    In response to DaffyDan's comment:

    Furthermore, Webster missed the strikezone with over 54% of the time with his fourseam and 25% with his sinker. If he can't locate his fastball better, it won't matter what pitches he throws. 

    Pitch outcomes

     



    The Tigers got over anxious and helped him out by chasing some change ups in the dirt. Bottom line is , he was not very good. He can't build a career around his changeup. He needs to command his fastball and get more movement on it. Otherwise , he will not make it. By no means am I giving up on him. He needs to have some success so he can develop confidence. That is obviously lacking at this point. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    Thats why Salty had him throw a few FB in a row Max. How does that not make sense to do that? He was trying to get him to establish the FB. Everything works off of that pitch, but Webster still had some issues controlling it. Nobody said this kid was ready for the show. This is all part of a players development. He has a couple things to work on, but I wouldnt be too concerned with his MLB numbers this year. Its all part of the development process.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    I've said before that I wonder if Salty is reluctant to change the game plan in game, if necessary.  By all accounts, he works very hard in studying the opposing hitters and coming up with a game plan, but sometimes that plan has to be adjusted according to what is working for the pitcher and how the opposing batters are approaching their at bats.  An adjustment might be based on something as subtle as a batter moving up or back a couple of inches in the box.  Pure speculation on my part, but something I wonder about.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Thats why Salty had him throw a few FB in a row Max. How does that not make sense to do that? He was trying to get him to establish the FB. Everything works off of that pitch, but Webster still had some issues controlling it. Nobody said this kid was ready for the show. This is all part of a players development. He has a couple things to work on, but I wouldnt be too concerned with his MLB numbers this year. Its all part of the development process.



    When opposing hitters know you are going to throw only fastballs in the strike zone, they can hit them, period, and that's exactly what happened. 

    And, as I said in the OP, as soon as he started throwing other pitches--slider and changeup--he started getting guys out, and that continued into the 5th inning, which means he faced everyone at least twice. 

    To me it was night and day.  Throwing nothing but fastballs, he gave up 4 runs against 5 hitters while getting 1 out (Prince Fielder struck out).  Throwing a mixture of fastballs and breaking balls against the same lineup, he gave up 1 run while getting 15 outs. 

    The same thing happens regularly with Lester--all he he wants to throw are the fastball and cutter. 

    The same thing doesn't happen to Doubront, who also has control issues, because he mixes in a pretty good curve and a pretty good changeup.  Lackey also mixes his pitches, plus he has pretty good control--ditto Buchholz. 

    When Beckett arrived in 2006, he loved his 97 mph fastball.  Problem was, so did opposing hitters, so his ERA was over 5 that year.

    And let's not of course that memorable game of 2 or 3 years ago when Nava hit a Verlander 100 mpg fast ball on the nose and to the oppositive field.  He hit it precisely because he knew it was coming. 

    If Webster is not ready for MLB, why in the heck is he pitching there? 

    I do not blame Salty because Nieves could change the game plan in an instant if he wanted to. 

    One other thing about the fastball.   When that's all you throw, then you must consistently hit the corners and keep moving the location around, and very few pitchers can do that because you need the precision of a knife thrower.  Except a knife thrower only throws about 15 feet vs. the 60' 6" in MLB, and he doesn't have to throw nearly as far.   Hitting corners gets even harder when the umpire isn't givin you the corners. 

    Most people thing Felix Hernandez is the best in the game, and one reason for that is he mixes his pitches up.  Same goes for Mr. 100 mph fastballer himself, Verlander--he mixes up his pitches.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Thats why Salty had him throw a few FB in a row Max. How does that not make sense to do that? He was trying to get him to establish the FB. Everything works off of that pitch, but Webster still had some issues controlling it. Nobody said this kid was ready for the show. This is all part of a players development. He has a couple things to work on, but I wouldnt be too concerned with his MLB numbers this year. Its all part of the development process.

     



    When opposing hitters know you are going to throw only fastballs in the strike zone, they can hit them, period, and that's exactly what happened. 

     

    And, as I said in the OP, as soon as he started throwing other pitches--slider and changeup--he started getting guys out, and that continued into the 5th inning, which means he faced everyone at least twice. 

    To me it was night and day.  Throwing nothing but fastballs, he gave up 4 runs against 5 hitters while getting 1 out (Prince Fielder struck out).  Throwing a mixture of fastballs and breaking balls against the same lineup, he gave up 1 run while getting 15 outs. 

    The same thing happens regularly with Lester--all he he wants to throw are the fastball and cutter. 

    The same thing doesn't happen to Doubront, who also has control issues, because he mixes in a pretty good curve and a pretty good changeup.  Lackey also mixes his pitches, plus he has pretty good control--ditto Buchholz. 

    When Beckett arrived in 2006, he loved his 97 mph fastball.  Problem was, so did opposing hitters, so his ERA was over 5 that year.

    And let's not of course that memorable game of 2 or 3 years ago when Nava hit a Verlander 100 mpg fast ball on the nose and to the oppositive field.  He hit it precisely because he knew it was coming. 

    If Webster is not ready for MLB, why in the heck is he pitching there? 

    I do not blame Salty because Nieves could change the game plan in an instant if he wanted to. 

    One other thing about the fastball.   When that's all you throw, then you must consistently hit the corners and keep moving the location around, and very few pitchers can do that because you need the precision of a knife thrower.  Except a knife thrower only throws about 15 feet vs. the 60' 6" in MLB, and he doesn't have to throw nearly as far.   Hitting corners gets even harder when the umpire isn't givin you the corners. 

    Most people thing Felix Hernandez is the best in the game, and one reason for that is he mixes his pitches up.  Same goes for Mr. 100 mph fastballer himself, Verlander--he mixes up his pitches.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I understand what happened. All Im saying is that its not out of the norm for a rookie pitcher up for a spot start to try and establish his FB right away. Sometimes that might take a few FB's in a row to get the feel and location. They changed it up accordingly, but its not much of a surprise that they (manager/coaches) wanted him to establish his FB right away.

    Usually with a situation like this a game plan is already in place between the manager/coaches, catcher and young pitcher. I wouldnt lay it all on Salty.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys


    Southpaw777, I complete agree Salty ain't the culprit, and I suspect you are right that "establishing his fastball" is reasonable.  My point remains, however, that it cost a game.  The Tigers loved Webster's fastball even more than Nieves and Farrell did. 

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

    x

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from 86redsox. Show 86redsox's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys

     

    Did I miss the webster trade thread? 

     

     

     

     

     

     

    ending threads since '07

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Great game plan, guys


    I absolutely love stupid posts like this. Let me find three giant flaws in your argument: Webster had no clue where the ball was going yesterday, if all you throw are sliders and changeups those pitches will eventually be crushed (see Dice K) and finally how in the world do you think the Red Sox coaching staff doesn't know what they are doing. They eat, sleep and live the game. Farrell has forgotten more baseball than you know.

    I'm not saying the coaches are never wrong, but please blaming "a gameplan" for a 23 year old kids fastball vs a major league stud hitter. What a joke.

     
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