Harness. Navarro?

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    Harness. Navarro?

    You say he's liable to mental errors.  Since it doesn't seem likely that anyone inside the Sox organization would put that kind of knock on one of its young players in public, you must have another source.  Do you have inside info? Do you read the Providence Journal? Have you ever seen him pull a bonehead play? More than one?
    I raise these questions because even a casual reference to a player's "weakness" can stick to his reputation, and then become exaggerated by people the first time they think they notice the weakness. 
    Since you introduced the subject, please clarify.  
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    My take is based on what I read regarding maturity issues with him.
    He'll make a physical mistake, then just 'give up on himself'. Then he's prone to nonchalant in the field, like he doesn't care. This came from his minor league mgr.

    Also, when he was up for a cup of coffee last year, the other players noticed his maturity issue.

    I read this last year because I took an interest in him. Whether this still holds true now I don't know. I think he has the goods to cut it at the ML level. He has the physical skills. His mental toughness - or lack of - may be his Achilles heel.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro?:
    My take is based on what I read regarding maturity issues with him. He'll make a physical mistake, then just 'give up on himself'. Then he's prone to nonchalant in the field, like he doesn't care. This came from his minor league mgr. Also, when he was up for a cup of coffee last year, the other players noticed his maturity issue. I read this last year because I took an interest in him. Whether this still holds true now I don't know. I think he has the goods to cut it at the ML level. He has the physical skills. His mental toughness - or lack of - may be his Achilles heel.
    Posted by harness
    His minor league manager actually said things like that for publication? Normally a manager wouldn't go that far in public but rather save it for private talks with the player. What good could public disclosure possibly do?  It risks souring relations between manager and player. "Nonchalant in the field." Wow, really? His manager said that? Nonchalant is a euphemism for dogging it.  What "other players" in Boston "noticed his maturity issue"?  Did they go on the record? Wow, what purpose could it possibly serve for prospective teammates to say that in public about a young man? 
    Since you remember so much about what the manager said and what, presumably, Sox players said, surely you must remember your source. Where did you read all this stuff? The Globe? The Herald? The Providence Journal? A website?  

     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    I read it in the Globe. The article was meant to be a personal interest story. It also went into how dirt poor this kid was growing up.
    The piece wasn't meant to blast him. I think it was to show that the RedSox had his back.

    Google Globe articles on him around that time and you'll likely find it. Perhaps more. I'm sure others read it as well. It may have been written by Abraham, but that's only a best guess.
     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    Correction: I think it was an A. Benjamin piece. This might have been it.
    Hope this link works.
    http://articles.boston.com/2010-09-17/sports/29321349_1_survival-mode-kid-pawsox

    It was called Navarro: Dirt-poor, talent rich.
    It was written Sept. 17th, of last year.
     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro?:
    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro? : His minor league manager actually said things like that for publication? Normally a manager wouldn't go that far in public but rather save it for private talks with the player. What good could public disclosure possibly do?  It risks souring relations between manager and player. "Nonchalant in the field." Wow, really? His manager said that? Nonchalant is a euphemism for dogging it.  What "other players" in Boston "noticed his maturity issue"?  Did they go on the record? Wow, what purpose could it possibly serve for prospective teammates to say that in public about a young man?  Since you remember so much about what the manager said and what, presumably, Sox players said, surely you must remember your source. Where did you read all this stuff? The Globe? The Herald? The Providence Journal? A website?  
    Posted by expitch

    Can you fit any more questions into this post?
     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro?:
    Correction: I think it was an A. Benjamin piece. This might have been it. Hope this link works. http://articles.boston.com/2010-09-17/sports/29321349_1_survival-mode-kid-pawsox It was called Navarro: Dirt-poor, talent rich. It was written Sept. 17th, of last year.
    Posted by harness
    Thanks for the link.  
    I probed the subject because, like you, I'm interested in this young man, and hope that nothing said about his immaturity or nonchalance back then sticks with him or is brought up in future. The quotes in the full article flesh out the picture supply some balance.  Glad to hear that now

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro?:
    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro? : Thanks for the link.   I probed the subject because, like you, I'm interested in this young man, and hope that nothing said about his immaturity or nonchalance back then sticks with him or is brought up in future. The quotes in the full article flesh out the picture supply some balance.  Glad to hear that now
    Posted by expitch
    he doing much better and seems to be on his way.
    The other stuff takes on a life of its own. Even this season, posters have called Lester and Buchholz "head cases" and such after a couple of rough starts.  

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    I think Buch got the "headcase" rap after he admitted he had confidence issues a couple years back.

    He certainly has matured.

    I have never heard any Lester comments of this nature. The guy is a true battler in more than one sense.
     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    I hope so. I really think Navarro can fly under the radar of the press hyperbole with IGGY, who looks to have many a hole at the plate. Navarro looked short at the plate also last year, but it appeared more rookie nerves than anything else.

    I felt the article was more informative, supportive and introductory than a slam.
    If/when Navarro is called up, and if he acts a bit erratically on/off the field, I think it's best the fans know where it stems from. This kid hasn't had it easy.

    BTW: I've made several posts when the board was super up on IGGY saying Navarro may end up being the SS. You caught the one where I expressed concern about maturity issues.

    I never mentioned Navarro's personal stuff because of the very reason you mentioned. Posters can run with it in any direction. And I didn't recall the exact circumstances. Besides, UR initial posts/OP made it sound like a 5th degree - as to the credibility of the source.
    A simple "I missed that. Where do you get that from?"...would have sufficed.
     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro?:
    I think Buch got the "headcase" rap after he admitted he had confidence issues a couple years back. He certainly has matured. I have never heard any Lester comments of this nature. The guy is a true battler in more than one sense.
    Posted by moonslav59
    Earlier this season, when Lester looked unhappy with umpires, the term "head case" was indeed used by a few posters, maybe not here but on threads about individual games.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro?:
    I hope so. I really think Navarro can fly under the radar of the press hyperbole with IGGY, who looks to have many a hole at the plate. Navarro looked short at the plate also last year, but it appeared more rookie nerves than anything else. I felt the article was more informative, supportive and introductory than a slam. If/when Navarro is called up, and if he acts a bit erratically on/off the field, I think it's best the fans know where it stems from. This kid hasn't had it easy. BTW: I've made several posts when the board was super up on IGGY saying Navarro may end up being the SS. You caught the one where I expressed concern about maturity issues. I never mentioned Navarro's personal stuff because of the very reason you mentioned. Posters can run with it in any direction. And I didn't recall the exact circumstances. Besides, UR initial posts/OP made it sound like a 5th degree - as to the credibility of the source. A simple "I missed that. Where do you get that from?"...would have sufficed.
    Posted by harness
    Why bring up "maturity issues" at all at this point when the article says he's doing better?  The rap could stick with  him.  You say you want fans to know about Navarro's tough life in the event that he acts erratically in Boston.  Why not wait for the IF to materialize before anticipating the need for justification?
    Heck, even if he doesn't act out in any way, someone with your "acts as if he doesn't care" in mind might seize upon it to grumble about why he didn't get to a ground ball or pop up. Others take it up, and.... Why risk providing any kind of ammunition?
    Benjamin put the story in the public prints.  That seems to me enough for now -- unless there is something timely to extend or to underscore the continuing nature of the issue.  A current incident, for example. 
    Your brief original post did not give the impression that you found the article
    "supportive."  Your post used, rather pointedly, the phrase "mental lapses" and referred to Navarro's physical skills, leaving the impression that the former could hinder his development.  Why even speculate?  
    IMO, better not to stir this pot, even mildly, at the moment.  Better to wait until two possible outcomes. One, maturity issues continue to hamper Navarro either in Pawtucket or in Boston. Two, more happily, a story about what he had to overcome -- but only after he makes it in Boston or elsewhere.  That would be a real story with substance.   

       

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    BTW, "mental lapses" and "maturity issues" are not necessarily the same thing. An emotionally mature player may still have mental lapses, while an immature player may appear to be having a mental lapse but in fact be succumbing to an emotional impulse. ( Getting down on himself, acting as though he doesn't care, etc. )  Harness started with "mental lapses," then shifted to "maturity issues," thus by implication equating them.  
     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    Navarro will be called up when he is fully recovered from his DL stint. 

    The guy I think may have similar potential and versatility is Nate Spears. During ST the Sox had him playing all infield positions and corner OF. The negative is he is a lefthanded bat--which we have enough of. 

    These two--Nav and Spears along with Sutton give you three players that are close to being super subs--I would love to see them add some catching experience to be able to handle an emergency situation.
     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    Here is a more recent article on Navarro

    http://www.projo.com/pawsox/content/Yamaico_Navarro_PawSox_Red_Sox_05-12-11_UGO1T_v2.25f2cb8.html
     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    moon  - Lester is not only a battler but a cancer survivor.  He chose a very aggressive form of treatment that has worked for him in his disease and his pitching style.

    Tremendous athlete and a great example of how to endure adversity IMO.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    Posts: 188
    First: 3/2/2011Last: 5/30/2011
    In Response to www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion%3a838a8b28-3c39-40e1-b707-9818df22a63c&plckFindPostKey=Cat:SportsForum:81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion:838a8b28-3c39-40e1-b707-9818df22a63cPost:70e6a48d-d84b-4429-bf53-e8de5da4ec92">Re: Harness. Navarro?:
    I think Buch got the "headcase" rap after he admitted he had confidence issues a couple years back. He certainly has matured. I have never heard any Lester comments of this nature. The guy is a true battler in more than one sense.
    Posted by moonslav59
    Earlier this season, when Lester looked unhappy with umpires, the term "head case" was indeed used by a few posters, maybe not here but on threads about individual games.
    It is quite possible that those few posters are a little unstable themselves  ...  at least to the point that they over-react to each game, at bat, pitch or comment.  We have far too many over-excitable fans and anything, even someone's facial expression, can become a reason to indict someone for some evil deed or thought.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    Thanks, Joeyama99 for the link.  It was good to read all the positive comments about Navarro as a player.  Too bad the young man is laid up. But it sounds like we'll see him in Boston sooner or later -- maybe as a starter.
     
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    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    I'm not sure you can separate maturity issues from mental lapses, on the field anyway. Especially if you are willing to go so far as to link poor hitting to mental lapses.

    A few years ago, Buch
    admittedly "wasn't all there" when situations called for the utmost concentration. With him, it was a confidence thing. But it lead to lapses in concentration. The same thing is very possible when dealing with a player who might be fragile emotionally. It all affects the level of concentration.

    I do think UR blowing this out of proportion. I simply said on another thread that the kid (Navaro) has had maturity issues. I didn't seethe need to go beyond that. You asked me about it, and made it sound like you questioned the credibility of the source. I gave you the link, and then you criticized me for bringing it up.

    If this thread was directed toward you, in the same 5th degree manner, how would you have reacted?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    Navarro can hit--at least, at the AAA level.  And he has the potential to be a good defensive SS. 

    Iglesias so far can't hit, period.  He reportedly has a great attitude, but he has to learn how to hit. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    Harness, my point -- and still my point -- is that bringing up the maturity issues at this stage is gratuitous. That's why I questioned you. Who said it? Exactly what was said? In what context?  Your original post -- elsewhere -- was brief and provocative. It didn't in any way imply that your source was, on balance, sympathetic to Navarro. That's why I wanted to see for myself.  So I pushed you. So what. I got to read Benjamin and, by a link from joey, a later story that is even more sympathetic than hers and says nothing about maturity. If I hadn't pressed hard on the topic I would be far less informed and with more critical implications than I am at this moment. I know where Navarro stands now, not the time in the past that you originally referred to. You said you didn't know if the problem persisted. Why not find out before posting anything about the young man? 
    I certainly can separate mental lapses from maturity problems. The latter might well lead to mental mistakes in the case of players trying to adjust to pro ball, life in America, etc.; but in the case of more stable and experienced players the mental lapse is just that.  "Sorry, out to lunch." No blaming life in a hovel. No blaming rookie nerves. "Just me, and I have should have known better. I was going to steal, but I should have guarded against being picked off by a lefty I'd never seen before."  Thanks, for that, Mr. McDonald. Exactly.
    You have said that hitting is mostly, if not entirely, reactive. That is simply wrong. Gonzalez, for instance, was proactive and hammered Sabathia. I could give many examples both from experience and observation. Hitters guess. That's proactive -- and sometimes does them in.  Batters also get into bad mental habits. The body doesn't lunge, swing at awful pitches, try to pull everything, try to hit one out of its own. Like the male organ, it has no brain. Once a habit gets established it may or may not become automatic, but it doesn't start that way.
    Here's to a great future for Navarro, wherever he plays.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    Well, I ain't gonna touch the 'organ' analogy.
    But I do think hitting is reactive, just not 100% so. Of course there's a thought process that goes into it. But when that thought process is crossed-up, you see hitters flailing away at pitches they know they can't possibly hit. It's an impulsive reaction.

    To conclude why I purposely didn't go any further than "maturity issues" - good or bad - it stems from my own history with people and players I've known. As you know, people communicate at various levels. I always seem to have the backs of those others don't quite understand. Sometimes they open up and I get a better idea of where they are coming from. It stays between us. Period. So someone cuts up for the sake of cutting up, but it's taken the wrong way. Or others get needlessly abusive. So, I get abusive and get in their face.

    Yeah, if I betray a confidence, maybe it's understood better. Or maybe it fuels future fires. So I don't.

    As I perceive this kid Navarro, it may be a concern how he'll adjust to the pressures of playing in the majors. How he'll react to the Boston limelight. I'm sure if there are issues, the FO/players will have his back. But how will the press monster treat it? Will he be perceived by the fans as another man-child? Or another Oil-Can Boyd? Or perhaps they will have a heart...if the need arises.

    I hope like you this is not gonna be a reason for concern, as his ceiling has potential. Time will tell it.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro?:
    Well, I ain't gonna touch the 'organ' analogy. But I do think hitting is reactive, just not 100% so. Of course there's a thought process that goes into it. But when that thought process is crossed-up, you see hitters flailing away at pitches they know they can't possibly hit. It's an impulsive reaction . To conclude why I purposely didn't go any further than "maturity issues" - good or bad - it stems from my own history with people and players I've known. As you know, people communicate at various levels. I always seem to have the backs of those others don't quite understand. Sometimes they open up and I get a better idea of where they are coming from. It stays between us. Period. So someone cuts up for the sake of cutting up, but it's taken the wrong way. Or others get needlessly abusive. So, I get abusive and get in their face. Yeah, if I betray a confidence, maybe it's understood better. Or maybe it fuels future fires. So I don't. As I perceive this kid Navarro, it may be a concern how he'll adjust to the pressures of playing in the majors. How he'll react to the Boston limelight. I'm sure if there are issues, the FO/players will have his back. But how will the press monster treat it? Will he be perceived by the fans as another man-child? Or another Oil-Can Boyd? Or perhaps they will have a heart... if the need arises. I hope like you this is not gonna be a reason for concern, as his ceiling has potential. Time will tell it.
    Posted by harness
    The "impulsive reaction" to which you refer has a backdrop in a game where so much mentalism is involved. It is set up and triggered by a mix-up in the approach or by the wrong idea, literally, about what can be done, and, as in slumps, it can become habitual. It is not, in the usual sense of the term, spur of the moment. It does not come out of nowhere. Batters spend hours studying and analyzing what they are doing at the plate and what pitchers try to do against them.  All of this is mental. Too much of it, in fact, can put the batter in a bind. Can paralyze him.  But it must be done to a certain extent in which batter and pitcher are trying to figure each other out. The wheels are turning.
    In the sense that the pitcher gets to go first, the batter must react to the pitcher's action.  That's obvious.  But the reaction has in one way of another been prepared. "Flailing" can and often does mean "fooled by the pitch," that is, prepared for something else. That's not impulsive. It's mental.  After it's happened a few times, it can become a bad habit -- even when the batter is not guessing. A batter may also persist in swinging at pitches he can't do much with. He can delude himself. "He's got to learn to lay off the fastball above the letters." And so on. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    Disagree. Flailing at a pitch is impulsive. The hitter is fooled. He only has a fraction of a second to commit or not commit. Hitters have always flailed - throughout the history of the game. It epitomizes the pure difficulty of hitting. Only the greatest hitters, like TW and JD had the ability to exercise strikezone discipline to the highest degree.

    Being fooled is guessing wrong. It has nothing to do with a mental lapse. The act of guessing in itself is a product of the thought process.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Harness. Navarro?

    In Response to Re: Harness. Navarro?:
    Disagree. Flailing at a pitch is impulsive . The hitter is fooled. He only has a fraction of a second to commit or not commit. Hitters have always flailed - throughout the history of the game. It epitomizes the pure difficulty of hitting. Only the greatest hitters, like TW and JD had the ability to exercise strikezone discipline to the highest degree. Being fooled is guessing wrong. It has nothing to do with a mental lapse . The act of guessing in itself is a product of the thought process.
    Posted by harness
    You're not reading very well. I never said that guessing wrong is a mental lapse, but it is a mental act that can and often does result is flailing. The "impulse" doesn't come out of nowhere. It is set up by a mental predisposition. You have the sequence backwards.  You say, "Being fooled is guessing wrong."
    It should be, "Guessing can lead to being fooled." Then comes the flail. 
    Now, mental mistakes include continually swinging at bad pitches, trying to pull every pitch, always swinging for the fences.  In these situations, guessing might or might not be involved. It is more regularly involved when the result is flailing.  
    My latest dispute with you does not, in fact, have anything to do with "mental lapses."  I made a direct challenge to your contention that hitting is exclusively or mainly "reactive."  Sure, the pitcher acts first. Duh.  But batters do not think, "I'll just sashay up to the plate and see what happens. Then I'll react." Guessing, for goodness sake, is an example of proactive batting.  So is adjusting the second or third time up. So is deciding what to do with a certain pitch if the batter gets it. And so on. In short, any time a batter goes to the plate with a plan, he's being proactive.   
     
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