Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    the only thing that this debacle proves is that I was 100% correct

     

    Fangraph <flush>

    [/QUOTE]

    Fangraphs does not project future value.

    It had Drew's 2013 value at $16.9M.

    The Sox offered him $14.1M.

    He turned it down.

    I'm not sure how this proves you were "right", or fangraphs' was wrong.

    Draft picks have real value to teams. Any offer made to Drew will take into account the value of that lost pick. Borass knows that. Drew should have known that known that. Drew messed up- not fangraphs.

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    Say what? Are you saying there is no correlation between Fangraphs projected worth and what they actually get? Get out of here Moon.....Cool

     

    Fangraphs has a metric that places a dollar value on what a player did over a given time.  The contract is signed before the season begins, and often the two numbers are not similar.

    I'm sure several teams have their own metrics, formulas or processes to determine the value of a player's performance. I'm sure past performance plays a role in helping determine future value of a player, but there are several other factors involved, including age, health, and areas of need.

    Just because Drew had a fangraph's value of $16.9M, that does not mean that is what he should or will get in 2014, however, my point was that if you figure his value to be about $30M/2 and subtract the $10M value of the lost high draft pick, then one might assume he'll sign for about $20M/2... which is probably about what he will get. In Drew's case, the fangraph's value (after adjusting the draft choice value) will probably be pretty close to what he gets.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    Speaking of fangraphs value and performance value, JD Drew made $70M/5 with the Sox. His performance value was $43.9M. If you believe these numbers, it looks like BorA$$ got more money than what he earned while with Boston.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Right now, it looks like Stephen Drew was an idiot for not accepting the qualifying offer. It will be interesting to see what he signs for and earns the rest of his career. But right now, it looks like he'll end up earning less over the rest of his career than if he took the $14M this year then signed for less in the next couple of years.

    Let's say he was looking for 3/$30M. If he had a really good year this year for the $14M, he would have needed to average just $8M over the next two years to reach that. And if he had a good year, it's possible he would have exceeded that.

    So for now, it looks as if Borass' advice is costing Drew money.

     

    As for J.D., Borass might have cost him money too. When J.D. was drafted, he turned down the $2.6 million that the Phillies offered. He signed the next year for $7M, so initially, he made $4.4M more. However, what if signing a year later made him get to the majors a year later. And if he retired at the same age after the same year, J.D. lost one year at the higher end of his earning power. He earned $14M his last year. So you could argue that for an extra $4.4M at the beginning of his career, he lost a $14M payday at the end, a difference of nearly $10M.

    Of course, you don't know how contracts would work out, but it's an interesting thought.

    [/QUOTE]

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:

     

    Borass should never have been able to represent two players for the same position on the same team. It was in Borass' best interest to get his star playing everyday in MLB. There could be no way he was dealing with those two clients the same. It's a major conflict of interest.

    And I feel for Drew because he still doesn't know where his family is going to live. That's a HUGE deal.



     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Right now, it looks like Stephen Drew was an idiot for not accepting the qualifying offer. It will be interesting to see what he signs for and earns the rest of his career. But right now, it looks like he'll end up earning less over the rest of his career than if he took the $14M this year then signed for less in the next couple of years.

    Let's say he was looking for 3/$30M. If he had a really good year this year for the $14M, he would have needed to average just $8M over the next two years to reach that. And if he had a good year, it's possible he would have exceeded that.

    So for now, it looks as if Borass' advice is costing Drew money.

     

    As for J.D., Borass might have cost him money too. When J.D. was drafted, he turned down the $2.6 million that the Phillies offered. He signed the next year for $7M, so initially, he made $4.4M more. However, what if signing a year later made him get to the majors a year later. And if he retired at the same age after the same year, J.D. lost one year at the higher end of his earning power. He earned $14M his last year. So you could argue that for an extra $4.4M at the beginning of his career, he lost a $14M payday at the end, a difference of nearly $10M.

    Of course, you don't know how contracts would work out, but it's an interesting thought.

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    ???????????????????????????????????????????????????

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Speaking of fangraphs value and performance value, JD Drew made $70M/5 with the Sox. His performance value was $43.9M. 

    If you believe these numbers, it looks like BorA$$ got more money than what he earned while with Boston.

    [/QUOTE]

    This is true for a lot of agents who get their players signed for megabucks, but the player, at least by the end, fails to "earn" all of it.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kimsaysthis's comment:

     

    Borass should never have been able to represent two players for the same position on the same team. It was in Borass' best interest to get his star playing everyday in MLB. There could be no way he was dealing with those two clients the same. It's a major conflict of interest.

    And I feel for Drew because he still doesn't know where his family is going to live. That's a HUGE deal.

     




     

    How would this work exactly, though? At what point should someone have stepped in to forbid Boras from representing both players (if they could indeed do such a thing), given that:

    -Boras has represented Drew since he was drafted in 2004. (Bogaerts was, what, 11 at the time?)

    -At the time Drew originally signed with Boston, Bogaerts was a prospect in Double-A.

    -It's never been a sure thing that Bogaerts would stick as a shortstop (it looks likelier than ever right now, and that seems to be the Red Sox plan, but there is still talk of potentially putting him at third base).

    -Given that Xander played more third base than SS when he reached the majors last year, and that Drew is now a free agent, I don't know if you can accurately say that Boras ever "represented two players for the same position on the same team" at any point.

     

    There are several factors contributing to the predicament Drew now finds himself in, but I doubt much, if any, of it comes from the fact that Boras also represents Bogaerts. It's not like he's the only free agent who turned down a QO this winter and now might wish they hadn't.

    I do feel bad for him as well, though...he's certainly more deserving of a nice multi-year contract than juicer Peralta.

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    There is no way that Borass wanted Drew to take that deal. He already had a SS in mind for the Red Sox that would be more lucrative for him. I think we all can agree that Borass is more about the best deal for him, than he is about the best deal for his clients. We don't know what was said to Drew, but I'm sure it wasn't in his best interests. Even more sad given the fact that he was representing him since he was drafted. I would imagine you would have a tendancy to listen to the only person supposedly looking out for you.

    Given the contract for Napoli after he declined his offer, you have to wonder what the RS were thinking. I mean there are alot of options on a team for first base. Waay more than SS. Some teams even use it as a resting spot for players. Didn't he get a 3-year deal? With a bad hip? I just hope this doesn't come back to bite us when someone goes down, and we don't have a competent replacement. A two-year deal shouldn't have been out of the question especially with the injury history on this team. And I would have given that to him before I gave the contract to Napoli for three years.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:

     

    Borass should never have been able to represent two players for the same position on the same team. It was in Borass' best interest to get his star playing everyday in MLB. There could be no way he was dealing with those two clients the same. It's a major conflict of interest.

    And I feel for Drew because he still doesn't know where his family is going to live. That's a HUGE deal.



     

    [/QUOTE]

    How did you get that pic of me? And it's current, that's what's so weird. I just took a selfie of myself yesterday, and it looks like the same pic. Unbelievable.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Borass should never have been able to represent two players for the same position on the same team. It was in Borass' best interest to get his star playing everyday in MLB. There could be no way he was dealing with those two clients the same. It's a major conflict of interest.

    And I feel for Drew because he still doesn't know where his family is going to live. That's a HUGE deal.

    [/QUOTE]


    Drew could have taken the deal, period.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
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    In response to crazy-world-of-troybrown's comment:
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    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
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    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
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    It seems to me that Stephen Drew is not as highly valued around baseball as he is by many on this forum. Even so, I would guess that someone will give him a decent contract in the next few days. 

     

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    It's the draft pick that is really killing him.  If he had another year of good health behind him that would likely make a big difference as well.  Boras will get him something.

     

    [/QUOTE]
    Then Boras should have advised him to take the QO. I agree, Drew with another good year with the Sox would have been big. Boras blew it this time.

    Also forgot 4.6 million dollar raise.

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    In hindsight it would appear that way....but

    Boras advises his clients wisely the vast majority of the time...just like a MLB hitter no one can bat 1.000

    He has still yet to sign, and we don't know what he will sign for.  Boras, while not perfect, does have a reputation of striking deals at the last minute.  It doesn't look good for Drew, but lets not speak too soon here.

    [/QUOTE]

    If Drew ends up signing at $22M/2, I'd say he lost, but from his point of view, maybe he'd rather have $22M/2 or $30M/3 than $14M/1.

    I do think Borass might not have wanted Drew taking the $14M so as to increase the value of Bogaerts by staying at SS, but that's hard to prove.

    If one values a top draft pick at about $10M, and Drew ends up signing for $19M/2, then one could argue his "true value" to the team was maybe $29M/2, which is actually higher value that the QO offer of $14.1M/1.

    It's not so much teams not valuing Drew, it is more about the loss of draft pick value associated with signing Drew.

    [/QUOTE]


    He won't get anything near $22M for 2 years. That's a big pipe dream. The Red Sox will be stupid enough to sign him and given him $8M for 1 year.


    But I hope not. Move on.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    There is no way that Borass wanted Drew to take that deal.

    If you're referring to the qualifying offer, then I agree, but I doubt Drew would have taken it in any case. He and Boras are looking for a multi-year contract, and it so happens that neither the Red Sox or any other team has met their demands (whatever they may be) up to this point. I don't see any of that having anything to do with who represents Bogaerts.

    Now, it may be that Boston has much less interest in retaining Drew because they have Bogaerts ready to play the same position, but that isn't Boras' fault. The Red Sox could, if they wanted, easily sign Drew and shift Bogaerts to third. If Boston's offer was the best, do you not think Boras & Drew would take it?

    Boras may have screwed Drew over this winter, but we will not really know until we see what he ultimately signs for...and in any case, I don't buy for a moment that Boras is conspiring to keep Drew out of Boston to ensure Bogaerts remains a shortstop (which he may not in the long-term anyway). Boras knows Xander is going to make him a lot of money in due time regardless of where he plays in 2014; in the meantime, he is looking for the best deal he can get for Drew. It's just that he might have overplayed his hand this time.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    Right now, it looks like Stephen Drew was an idiot for not accepting the qualifying offer. It will be interesting to see what he signs for and earns the rest of his career. But right now, it looks like he'll end up earning less over the rest of his career than if he took the $14M this year then signed for less in the next couple of years.

    Let's say he was looking for 3/$30M. If he had a really good year this year for the $14M, he would have needed to average just $8M over the next two years to reach that. And if he had a good year, it's possible he would have exceeded that.

    So for now, it looks as if Borass' advice is costing Drew money.

     

    As for J.D., Borass might have cost him money too. When J.D. was drafted, he turned down the $2.6 million that the Phillies offered. He signed the next year for $7M, so initially, he made $4.4M more. However, what if signing a year later made him get to the majors a year later. And if he retired at the same age after the same year, J.D. lost one year at the higher end of his earning power. He earned $14M his last year. So you could argue that for an extra $4.4M at the beginning of his career, he lost a $14M payday at the end, a difference of nearly $10M.

    Of course, you don't know how contracts would work out, but it's an interesting thought.

     



    GM's are well aware of Boras's tactics and all the FA's who have turned out to be complete busts so I think his bargaining power has already diminished a bit.  The draft pick ruling has also hurt the lesser name FA's and those like Cruz with a history of PED use. 

    I would love to see MLB incorporate further rules to limit the bargaining power of agents like Boras.  MLB has become the senate and congress of sports.  The gap between the wealthy and average person/player has become completely out of hand considering the overall productivity between the two in many cases.  It's like the average american who works 40 to 50 hours a week just to make ends meet while our politicians make six figures with 30/35 less hours and no productivity.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Right now, it looks like Stephen Drew was an idiot for not accepting the qualifying offer. It will be interesting to see what he signs for and earns the rest of his career. But right now, it looks like he'll end up earning less over the rest of his career than if he took the $14M this year then signed for less in the next couple of years.

    Let's say he was looking for 3/$30M. If he had a really good year this year for the $14M, he would have needed to average just $8M over the next two years to reach that. And if he had a good year, it's possible he would have exceeded that.

    So for now, it looks as if Borass' advice is costing Drew money.

     

    As for J.D., Borass might have cost him money too. When J.D. was drafted, he turned down the $2.6 million that the Phillies offered. He signed the next year for $7M, so initially, he made $4.4M more. However, what if signing a year later made him get to the majors a year later. And if he retired at the same age after the same year, J.D. lost one year at the higher end of his earning power. He earned $14M his last year. So you could argue that for an extra $4.4M at the beginning of his career, he lost a $14M payday at the end, a difference of nearly $10M.

    Of course, you don't know how contracts would work out, but it's an interesting thought.

    [/QUOTE]

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    ???????????????????????????????????????????????????

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    Just a mock lament over JD Drew's potential income loss.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:

     

    Borass should never have been able to represent two players for the same position on the same team. It was in Borass' best interest to get his star playing everyday in MLB. There could be no way he was dealing with those two clients the same. It's a major conflict of interest.

    And I feel for Drew because he still doesn't know where his family is going to live. That's a HUGE deal.



     

    [/QUOTE]

    How did you get that pic of me? And it's current, that's what's so weird. I just took a selfie of myself yesterday, and it looks like the same pic. Unbelievable.

    [/QUOTE]

    You may consider using it as your new avatar.  This way we won't confuse you with the other flowering Kim on this website.  Not that it was ever easy to confuse the two of you once you started reading the posts.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:

     

    Borass should never have been able to represent two players for the same position on the same team. It was in Borass' best interest to get his star playing everyday in MLB. There could be no way he was dealing with those two clients the same. It's a major conflict of interest.

    And I feel for Drew because he still doesn't know where his family is going to live. That's a HUGE deal.



     

    [/QUOTE]

    How did you get that pic of me? And it's current, that's what's so weird. I just took a selfie of myself yesterday, and it looks like the same pic. Unbelievable.

    [/QUOTE]

    You may consider using it as your new avatar.  This way we won't confuse you with the other flowering Kim on this website.  Not that it was ever easy to confuse the two of you once you started reading the posts.

    [/QUOTE]

    You know what's the easiest way not to confuse our posts? Ignore mine. Cool

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Has Borass Cost Both J.D and Stephen Money?

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
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    In response to royf19's comment:
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    Right now, it looks like Stephen Drew was an idiot for not accepting the qualifying offer. It will be interesting to see what he signs for and earns the rest of his career. But right now, it looks like he'll end up earning less over the rest of his career than if he took the $14M this year then signed for less in the next couple of years.

    Let's say he was looking for 3/$30M. If he had a really good year this year for the $14M, he would have needed to average just $8M over the next two years to reach that. And if he had a good year, it's possible he would have exceeded that.

    So for now, it looks as if Borass' advice is costing Drew money.

     

    As for J.D., Borass might have cost him money too. When J.D. was drafted, he turned down the $2.6 million that the Phillies offered. He signed the next year for $7M, so initially, he made $4.4M more. However, what if signing a year later made him get to the majors a year later. And if he retired at the same age after the same year, J.D. lost one year at the higher end of his earning power. He earned $14M his last year. So you could argue that for an extra $4.4M at the beginning of his career, he lost a $14M payday at the end, a difference of nearly $10M.

    Of course, you don't know how contracts would work out, but it's an interesting thought.

    [/QUOTE]

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    ???????????????????????????????????????????????????

    [/QUOTE]

    Just a mock lament over JD Drew's potential income loss.

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    It wasn't a lament. If you read the thread, I simply find it interesting to wonder if players lose money in the long run when they hold out in the short run.

    In J.D.'s case, we don't know if he would have made it to the big leagues a year earlier. But he might have. So for a player who obviously wanted to make every last penny he could squeeze out of MLB, I chuckle at the though that he could have cost himself $10M in the long run.

    Obviously there is no way to know for sure, and he certainly made enough over his career. But as we seen with Boras clients, enough is never enough.

     

     

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