HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]It would appear Clay is all Cy Young with any catcher other than Tek.... go figure.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]It happens in baseball. Steve Carlton did not like pitching to Bob Boone who clearly was his generation's most heralded "game general" catcher. But Carlton had his personal catcher in Tim McCarver.

    And it wasn't like Lefty held McCarver's command of in game pitch calling in high esteem. In fact McCarver loves to tell a story how he and Carlton were having trouble getting on the same page one game so Tim went to the mound. When he got there Lefty told him "the only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it, so get your fat azz behind the plate and just catch the ball!"

    Frankly it is not that big of a surprise. In 2009 Buch struggled mightily and the receiver was Tek for most of that. Buch got himself back on track in AAA came up in 2010 and had success with another catcher.

    Sometimes a pitcher just doesn't click with a catcher, it doesn't reflect badly on the catcher IMO. After all for those who watched Bob Boone play know just what a good "defensive catcher' he was. Good manager of the game and perhaps nobody ever framed balls to appear to be strikes better than Boonie. But he and Carlton did not click. A less gifted catcher was Javier Lopez but his work did not stop Smoltz and Glavine from their journey to the HOF but Greg Maddux favorite catcher was anybody but Javy.

    One last thought. Jason Varitek did not become an every day catcher until he was 27 years old. Salty is 26. At 26 Jason had a slower first half in platoon duty and really started to show he was a "two-way" catcher in the second half of that season. And Jason's journey was much more controlled, 4 years of college ball, 3 years in the minors before a September call-up. Salty had 4 years in the minors straight out of high school and was thrown into the fire at 22.

    Patience, which this market is very short on is in order with this player. I could think of a lot situations that would have been better for this kid than Boston with the expectations this season brought and the shadow of the ghost of Captain Terrific on the bench behind him.

    Just my takes
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER! : It happens in baseball. Steve Carlton did not like pitching to Bob Boone who clearly was his generation's most heralded "game general" catcher. But Carlton had his personal catcher in Tim McCarver. And it wasn't like Lefty held McCarver's command of in game pitch calling in high esteem. In fact McCarver loves to tell a story how he and Carlton were having trouble getting on the same page one game so Tim went to the mound. When he got there Lefty told him "the only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it, so get your fat azz behind the plate and just catch the ball!" Frankly it is not that big of a surprise. In 2009 Buch struggled mightily and the receiver was Tek for most of that. Buch got himself back on track in AAA came up in 2010 and had success with another catcher. Sometimes a pitcher just doesn't click with a catcher, it doesn't reflect badly on the catcher IMO. After all for those who watched Bob Boone play know just what a good "defensive catcher' he was. Good manager of the game and perhaps nobody ever framed balls to appear to be strikes better than Boonie. But he and Carlton did not click. A less gifted catcher was Javier Lopez but his work did not stop Smoltz and Glavine from their journey to the HOF but Greg Maddux favorite catcher was anybody but Javy. One last thought. Jason Varitek did not become an every day catcher until he was 27 years old. Salty is 26. At 26 Jason had a slower first half in platoon duty and really started to show he was a "two-way" catcher in the second half of that season. And Jason's journey was much more controlled, 4 years of college ball, 3 years in the minors before a September call-up. Salty had 4 years in the minors straight out of high school and was thrown into the fire at 22. Patience, which this market is very short on is in order with this player. I could think of a lot situations that would have been better for this kid than Boston with the expectations this season brought and the shadow of the ghost of Captain Terrific on the bench behind him. Just my takes
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]
    And very sensible takes they are.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

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    [QUOTE]katz, not only are there not many good hitting catchers in MLB anymore, some of the ones that are, do not call good games or play defense too well. It's the defense and game calling skills that worry more than getting a .250+ BA out of the catching position.   This is a bad hitter's year thus far, but have a look at the offensive catching numbers so far... First, you have to go down to 80 PAs to get a list of 29 catchers in MLB, so that sould tell you one thing about the state of catchers in MLB today. The 10th best catcher has a .757 OPS 15th best is at .736 20th .709 25th .606 Salty is 29th at .516 My guess is that some of the catchers on the top of the list will "fall back to earth" over a long season and Salty/VTek will end up at about 20th combined on offense. It's the defense and game-calling that worries me most.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    You are making my point for me, better than I did Moon! Salty was supposed to be an offensive catcher. His defense will always be suspect. If he doesn't hit .250 with some pop he's a reserve catcher period.

    Regarding minor league talent, It is looking like Lavarnway is not ready and Exposito is tanking. McKenry is a possible call up but he has been a fringe player for a while. Federowicz is probably the most likely call up among the prospects ( McKenry is not really a prospect ) but Fedex is probably not going to hit well at all at the mlb level.

    It seems we draft guy after guy who hits well in the lower minors, and some field well also, but when they get to the higher minors they can't hit advanced pitching. We should take Cecchini right now and make him a catcher. At least he has shown he can hit a curveball ( I'm being facetious here ok! ) Laughing
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Patience is going to work for Salty and Tek's throwing and blocking butcher shop. They need to find a solid defensive catcher.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    I'm just frustrated that we have this great talent laden team ready to rock and some weak spots are holding it back. To me it is a business decision. The data looks like he's not going to work out and if I want to win this year, since our team is optimized in most other ways.

    I'm sounding like sour grapes here. I just wish I were hopeful that the acute upper cut swing would work at the mlb level. I don't think Salty could hit much more than .250 in AAA ball with that swing. He should flatten it out a lot more and keep it in the zone longer. I sure hope he works out but how long do we ride that choo choo before we get off at the station?
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

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    [QUOTE]Few thoughts. If folks insist on adding up the results of the pitchers and apply those to the catcher I wish that we could take the first week of the season and remove it from the sample sets. The pitchers stunk it up IMHO and Johnny Bench wasn't saving them. Tom UK hit the nail on the head. There isn't very much offense coming from the catcher's position in the league right now, so if the beef is offense that isn't going to easy to fix. Salty certainly seems to be doing OK with most of the pitchers. Beckett and Tek do appear to have a connection and that isn't all that bizarre. Maddox and Carlton had their favorite catchers in their day too. Now the flip side of this IMO is that in spite of the fact that Tek caught his no hitter as rookie emergency call-up in 2007, Buch and Tek really don't click. Both pitchers in a pinch can throw to other catcher but if we have two why? I do like Tek catching Dice K because I believe his tenure as a MLB player gives him more cache with Dice K who at moments needs to be dragged into being aggressive. Lackey is a train wreck right now with what appear to be problems that extend beyond the white lines. Lester seems to be totally catcher neutral.  At any rate I think this is what it is for now. In the longer term Salty is going to need to become a better hitter if in fact Inglesias is in fact the SS of the future or the RS will have a NL line-up with relatively dead spots at 8-9. But for the moment I personally am more concerned about the BP and Crawford and Drew getting on track.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Katz: Salty isn't catching "most of the pitchers". Not in the SR. He's now being paired with Lester/Buch. Just as VMART was last year. The idea is to hide his deficiencies with the two (perceived) best pitchers. Dice/Josh are successful with Tek, so why compromise them? I think Dice is tough to catch. Extra thought goes into dealing with his repertoire and the communication gap.

    The status quo is working to a degree. And as you said, the pen is a bigger concern. It's depth issues are influencing Tito's managing of the starters.
    Lackey is the swing guy in that it's less a mater of who catches him...more a matter of his stuff/demeanor. I do think he'll find something deep inside to tap into. He's got much pride.

    I also wouldn't fret about coupling Salty's offense with that of Iggy's. Iggy is up for exposure/fill-in. Nothing more. This kid isn't near ready yet. I believe Navarro may be the one who replaces Scut this year before it's all said and done.
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

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    [QUOTE]It would appear Clay is all Cy Young with any catcher other than Tek.... go figure.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Perfect example of yet another of your lame, poorly researched, posts. And you have the nerve to say  I use short samples!

    Tek has caught a grand total of 22.6 IP from Buch since 2010 began.
    2011: Buch w/Tek: 18.6 IP  3.38 ERA
            Buch w/Salty: 27 IP    4.33 ERA 

    Buch through 4 IP with Tek last year: 2.25 ERA.

    Nothing definitive can be drawn from this. Buch was a different pitcher prior to 2010.



    I do find it sad that Katz didn't research this before using it to fuel the fires of his  anti-CERA train.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

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    [QUOTE]I'm just frustrated that we have this great talent laden team ready to rock and some weak spots are holding it back. To me it is a business decision. The data looks like he's not going to work out and if I want to win this year, since our team is optimized in most other ways. I'm sounding like sour grapes here. I just wish I were hopeful that the acute upper cut swing would work at the mlb level. I don't think Salty could hit much more than .250 in AAA ball with that swing. He should flatten it out a lot more and keep it in the zone longer. I sure hope he works out but how long do we ride that choo choo before we get off at the station?
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]


    The C position is clearly the weak point in the line up, but they are not the problem here. A good line up like this should be able to cover that......... How many times have the Red Sox had runners in scoring position with less than two outs and not scored?  That is the issue that has hurt this team thus far.  
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from fancy-shamanski. Show fancy-shamanski's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    another catcher like vmart whos hitting 333 w 22 rbis,  AND NONE OF YOU WANTED HIM... remember how you all wanted salty.

    theo's biggest blunder as a gm is somehow he thinks cr@ppy players that other teams throw away will be great in boston.

    vmart was cheap too!!!  why didn't you want him?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from fancy-shamanski. Show fancy-shamanski's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    still give him more time pedroia stunk it up his first 1.5 months then got red hot, tyoung players take time, something thats hard to give when the team is playing poorly and getting nothing from the C position
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    How many people wanted to send Pedroia down after 40 games?  Quite a few. He turned out ok. Give Salty a chance. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Salty showed me yesterday he wants to be in the big league's (played his azz off) - and he deserves the year here.... its the other catcher I am concerned about.
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Exactly kt888! If this line-up can't compensate for poor catcher offensive output, hang it up. A catcher's job is to enhance the pitching staff and stopping the opposition.

    Why is this so hard for people here to understand????
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Not sure I'm buying the OP just yet.  Salty's still pretty young for a catcher and is in fact the youngest guy in the lineup by at least two years. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    I for one wanted to keep Victor. Imagine the lineup if Victor was still here and does anyone really think Salty is better defensively?

    Come on. We would almost definitely be a better team this year and the next with Victor available.
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    It's VMART/Beltre or AGONE/Crawford.
    That was the choice.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    No, that wasn't the choice. AGone/VMart was a choice. Cameron was perfectly capable of hitting just above the Mendoza line.
     
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    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]No, that wasn't the choice. AGone/VMart was a choice. Cameron was perfectly capable of hitting just above the Mendoza line.
    Posted by majorleague[/QUOTE]


    Wrong. This is why you never saw the CC move coming. No way they were gonna bank on Cam after last year. The upgrade in LF was highly predictable, even if you were blind to VMART'S inefficiency with the staff.

    I tried to tell you this on several occasions.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    One small thing that helped win last night's game was Varitek being patient.  He is at 4.1 P/PA this year and he has been well above average for his career in this respect.

    Last night, first AB 7 pitches, 2nd AB 4 pitch walk, 3rd AB 8 pitches (single).

    Lowrie did the same (7, 6, 4) and on Sabathia's 116th pitch he left it where he shouldn't have to AGon.

    Getting CC tired and/or out of the game worked last night, and it is under-valued.  Iglesias saw 9 pitches in 3 AB on Wednesday, that is more acceptable if you can slug like Tulo, but last night if he started how extended would CC have been?  Or Reddick in 2012!

    So far OBP is the only area the offense has performed as expected:

    OBP     4th
    SLG    12th
    BA      10th
    Runs   13th
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]One small thing that helped win last night's game was Varitek being patient.  He is at 4.1 P/PA this year and he has been well above average for his career in this respect. Last night, first AB 7 pitches, 2nd AB 4 pitch walk, 3rd AB 8 pitches (single). Lowrie did the same (7, 6, 4) and on Sabathia's 116th pitch he left it where he shouldn't have to AGon. Getting CC tired and/or out of the game worked last night, and it is under-valued.  Iglesias saw 9 pitches in 3 AB on Wednesday, that is more acceptable if you can slug like Tulo, but last night if he started how extended would CC have been. So far OBP is the only area the offense has performed as expected: OBP     4th SLG    12th BA      10th Runs   13th

    I think once Pedey and youk get to their usual numbers (and they will), the numbers will be where they should be IMO...All in the top 5
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]One small thing that helped win last night's game was Varitek being patient.  He is at 4.1 P/PA this year and he has been well above average for his career in this respect. Last night, first AB 7 pitches, 2nd AB 4 pitch walk, 3rd AB 8 pitches (single). Lowrie did the same (7, 6, 4) and on Sabathia's 116th pitch he left it where he shouldn't have to AGon. Getting CC tired and/or out of the game worked last night, and it is under-valued.  Iglesias saw 9 pitches in 3 AB on Wednesday, that is more acceptable if you can slug like Tulo, but last night if he started how extended would CC have been. So far OBP is the only area the offense has performed as expected: OBP     4th SLG    12th BA      10th Runs   13th
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    Good points. Tek knows his limitations. But he always tries to work the opposing pitcher. Lowrie should improve even more in this area. He has a good eye.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Why is this VMart/Beltre discussion still happening?  If the fans are just concerned about this year and next, fine, re-signing those two may have worked out (though base runners would still be running at will against the Sox).  But both of those guys are 32 years old and neither one of them were going to sign a one or two year contract.  Even Detroit signed VMart without the intent of having him as their primary catcher.  So then you have VMart as a $12.5/year DH.  I think the Red Sox put a value of $10/year on him - and didn't they make him a 4 year/ 42 million contract? So it's not as if they didn't try.  

    With Beltre, there were so many fans who thought it was stupid to bring him to Boston on a 1 year contract for $10 million in the first place.  Now we are pining for him?  It was a very smart move on Theo's part and it worked out better than expected for both sides, but does this mean you want him in a RS uniform at $16/year until he is 37 or 38?  

    It baffles me that, due to early season slumps, both Gonzalez and Crawford have been referred to as bums and lesser players than Beltre and VMart.  Really? Despite the fact that Gonzalez is flat out one of the best players in the game and will carry this team many times before his contract is up - and we know what Carl Crawford is capable of from his days in Tampa.  

    Theo made the team younger, which bodes well for now and in the future.  We get AGon and Crawford in their prime of their careers.  This is a well constructed team, but one that has not yet played up to it's potential.  That is not the GMs fault.  
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]Why is this VMart/Beltre discussion still happening?  If the fans are just concerned about this year and next, fine, re-signing those two may have worked out (though base runners would still be running at will against the Sox).  But both of those guys are 32 years old and neither one of them were going to sign a one or two year contract.  Even Detroit signed VMart without the intent of having him as their primary catcher.  So then you have VMart as a $12.5/year DH.  I think the Red Sox put a value of $10/year on him - and didn't they make him a 4 year/ 42 million contract? So it's not as if they didn't try.   With Beltre, there were so many fans who thought it was stupid to bring him to Boston on a 1 year contract for $10 million in the first place.  Now we are pining for him?  It was a very smart move on Theo's part and it worked out better than expected for both sides, but does this mean you want him in a RS uniform at $16/year until he is 37 or 38?   It baffles me that, due to early season slumps, both Gonzales and Crawford have been referred to as bums and lesser players than Beltre and VMart.  Really? Despite the fact that Gonzales is flat out one of the best players in the game and will carry this team many times before his contract is up - and we know what Carl Crawford is capable of from his days in Tampa.   Theo made the team younger, which bodes well for now and in the future.  We get AGon and Crawford in their prime of their careers.  This is a well constructed team, but one that has not yet played up to it's potential.  That is not the GMs fault.  
    Posted by kt888[/QUOTE]

    Theyve only been referred to as bums by the pink hats and trolls on this board..the knowledgable fans knew they would both come around.. I mean CC has his 300 in like 6 of the past 7 seasons i believe and Gonzo is...Well, Gonzo..It was absurd for anyone who has a basic knowledge of baseball to call either one a bum.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Give up on Saltalamacchia?

    Who are you? Rick Pitino?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    The problem with Saltalamacchia is he isn't very good at either offense or defense.  Some of this is undoubtedly inexperience.  however, some of it is probably inability.

    Fans can scream and cry for Yadier Molina all they want, but he is NOT coming here. 

    However, the Sox might be able to use their OF and SS depth to deal for a C.  Cincinnati has long time notin favorite Ryan Hanigan.  Pitt has Chris Snyder and Jason Jaramillo. Philly has Brian Schneider. 

    I do expect some of the internal ooptions, such as mike McKenry, to get shots soon.  I don't expect an all-around player at the position. Just one who cn either hit or field.

    And to be honest, I generally prefer a defense-first catcher...
     
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