HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Notin basically nailed it and others, such as those discussing RISP issues ( as I've also noted as the main issue on other threads ). Would we not be a better team though with Victor still here catching the same guys he caught so much last year ( Buch and Lester )? Of course we would. That is a no brainer. He's hitting .330 with 23 RBIs and he is as good or better than Salty defensively.

    So far, Theo messed up last winter and I am normally a huge advocate of his performance. Crawford was a bad sign at that cost. He could have had a better team by retaining Martinez at $42 mil / 4 years and saved $100 mil in contract commitments folks from the Crawford signing alone. Of course it is not that clear cut as they would still have to pay an OF to cover Crawford's last few contract years but that would not have cost $100 mil right? It cost us a #1 pick also right! Those decisions might well have cost us the pennant this year. We would be right there now with TB if Victor were still on this team.

    We could have let Papi go next year and slotted Victor as a PT DH / 1st base back up / catcher. Killed at least 2 birds with one stone and be happy with that choice.

    Victor had a really good RH bat right! He's a switch hitter but strong from the right side and we clearly need that.

    Victor would be playing in place of Salty right, tripling our offense from that slot so far this year.

    It's a no brainer.

    The compensation picks we received from Victor had better be good!

    BTW, Beltre has 9 HR and 30 RBI's so far this year also. My position of retaining both, letting Papi go for a pick and still trading or signing Fielder/Gonzalez/Pujols  as FA was at least as good as the current scenario.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]Notin basically nailed it and others, such as those discussing RISP issues ( as I've also noted as the main issue on other threads ). Would we not be a better team though with Victor still here catching the same guys he caught so much last year ( Buch and Lester )? Of course we would. That is a no brainer. He's hitting .330 with 23 RBIs and he is as good or better than Salty defensively. So far, Theo messed up last winter and I am normally a huge advocate of his performance. Crawford was a bad sign at that cost. He could have had a better team by retaining Martinez at $42 mil / 4 years and saved $100 mil in contract commitments folks from the Crawford signing alone. Of course it is not that clear cut as they would still have to pay an OF to cover Crawford's last few contract years but that would not have cost $100 mil right? It cost us a #1 pick also right! Those decisions might well have cost us the pennant this year. We would be right there now with TB if Victor were still on this team. We could have let Papi go next year and slotted Victor as a PT DH / 1st base back up / catcher. Killed at least 2 birds with one stone and be happy with that choice. Victor had a really good RH bat right! He's a switch hitter but strong from the right side and we clearly need that. Victor would be playing in place of Salty right, tripling our offense from that slot so far this year. It's a no brainer. The compensation picks we received from Victor had better be good! BTW, Beltre has 9 HR and 30 RBI's so far this year also. My position of retaining both, letting Papi go for a pick and still trading or signing Fielder/Gonzalez/Pujols  as FA was at least as good as the current scenario.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    So by say 2014, you have a superstar 1st baseman at 20 + million, 2 35 year old back up 1st baseman/DHs at 12 million/per, and a 35 year old third baseman at 16 million per (I'm assuming the RS would need to match Detroit's contract on VMart) - all of whom (except that superstar) are already past their prime.  Are they putting up good numbers thus far this year, no doubt.  But if you have Youk, VMart, Beltre and Gonzalez on the team, Youk would be the back up corner infielder.  That would leave one of these high paid guys on the bench each game for every game, as they cannot all have a spot in the line up at the same time.  Not the best utilization of resources.  This plan would only work in the short term (possibly for the next two years?) while having VMart as your primary starting catcher.  So for the short-term, good idea, but like I said before, these guys are not signing short term contracts.  
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Crawford will be the worst contract value bust in Red Sox history.

    The choice was not what Theo did, the choice was to ignore Crawford's silly contract demands and sign VMart.

    Sadly, we have a very limited old pitiful man who can't throw, can't hit and can't block, and had no magic fingers against the Jays.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

     We have needed a decent catcher since the middle of 2006 and now we have a guy who should be off golfing and one who is little better than a backup. Let the excuses fly!
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER! : So by say 2014, you have a superstar 1st baseman at 20 + million, 2 35 year old back up 1st baseman/DHs at 12 million/per, and a 35 year old third baseman at 16 million per (I'm assuming the RS would need to match Detroit's contract on VMart) - all of whom (except that superstar) are already past their prime.  Are they putting up good numbers thus far this year, no doubt.  But if you have Youk, VMart, Beltre and Gonzalez on the team, Youk would be the back up corner infielder.  That would leave one of these high paid guys on the bench each game for every game, as they cannot all have a spot in the line up at the same time.  Not the best utilization of resources.  This plan would only work in the short term (possibly for the next two years?) while having VMart as your primary starting catcher.  So for the short-term, good idea, but like I said before, these guys are not signing short term contracts.  
    Posted by kt888[/QUOTE]

    Considering the available catchers on the market I think it would be a good investment. Vmart and Beltre TOGETHER costs less than Crawford's contract. I love the net 3 picks but I'd also love the better defense at 3rd, the better catcher by far, and the #2 RBI guy in the league so far this year. We may well still get 2 picks in this scenario when Beltre and VMart left. 

    I think Beltre is going to be a solid player until he is 36. I think VMart would still have been a significant value at catcher, on this team, even at 36. Tek is at 37. Posada is also 37. Neither of them are catching full time. Did I mention any no trade contracts for any of them? No. 

    Note that this scenario also saved 12.5 mil per year in needing Ortiz for 4 more years. Even this year, VMart is still a better DH than Ortiz.

    Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE thought it was a bad idea but when you play out the entire scenarios it was still much better than shelling out all that money for Crawford, who has probably also peaked and now we have him for 7 more years.

    We wanted to get younger but at what cost? It was too much in these instances.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kt888. Show kt888's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER! : Considering the available catchers on the market I think it would be a good investment. Vmart and Beltre TOGETHER costs less than Crawford's contract. I love the net 3 picks but I'd also love the better defense at 3rd, the better catcher by far, and the #2 RBI guy in the league so far this year. We may well still get 2 picks in this scenario when Beltre and VMart left.  I think Beltre is going to be a solid player until he is 36. I think VMart would still have been a significant value at catcher, on this team, even at 36. Tek is at 37. Posada is also 37. Neither of them are catching full time. Did I mention any no trade contracts for any of them? No.  Note that this scenario also saved 12.5 mil per year in needing Ortiz for 4 more years. Even this year, VMart is still a better DH than Ortiz. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE thought it was a bad idea but when you play out the entire scenarios it was still much better than shelling out all that money for Crawford, who has probably also peaked and now we have him for 7 more years. We wanted to get younger but at what cost? It was too much in these instances.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]


    All good points, but I think the Red Sox FO had different ideas with regards to VMart's ability to catch effectively for the next three years, and sustain good numbers as a hitter while doing so - but it's easy to wish he were here now, based on what we currently have.  I don't hate the Crawford signing, but I don't love it, either, due to the amount of the contract of course.  I still think he will be positive addition over time, however - just wish it were at about 5-6 million less per year! 
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Hardly a no-brainer, Boom.
    No way VMART makes up for his inefficiency with the pitching staff, even if he
    hits .330 all year. Lester had twice the ERA with VMART as he did with Tek.
     
    T-W-I-C-E.

    Anywhere there was a credible frame of reference, there was a full run+per game allowed when VMART CAUGHT.

    Perhaps if I enlarge the letters, this will get through. The Tigers are deploying him properly - as a PT catcher. And when you see Papi's numbers by year's end, you'll be thankful he was retained. AGONE over Beltre is the no-brainer.
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    I like VMart and Buch, and how pitiful Varitek was.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Your out-to-lunch take is what's pitiful.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]Hardly a no-brainer, Boom . No way VMART makes up for his inefficiency with the pitching staff, even if he hits .330 all year. Lester had twice the ERA with VMART as he did with Tek.   T-W-I-C-E. Anywhere there was a credible frame of reference, there was a full run + per game allowed when VMART CAUGHT. Perhaps if I enlarge the letters, this will get through. The Tigers are deploying him properly - as a PT catcher. And when you see Papi's numbers by year's end, you'll be thankful he was retained. AGONE over Beltre is the no-brainer.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I don't want to argue about this again and again. if you go on another forum see how long your position regarding CERA lasts without a collective howling, and ridicule. Most analysts consider it a factor but not the huge factor you make it. Many find it even difficult to quantify at all. It is by no means the definitive factor you make it. As Scioscia says, it may have to do with relationships between different pitchers and catchers. The data has been studied exhaustively. It needs a huge sample to be statistically significant according to the numbers guys.

    We can agree to disagree but I'm absolutely sure that I would prefer Victor Martinez as my catcher this year and probably going forward for the next 4 years compared to Salty. I think the Sox let Victor to use the money elsewhere. They wanted the picks, wanted to get younger etc...but I think it will end up a mistake. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!



    We should get Mat Weiters.

    Oh and you can put me down as one of the ones who find it "difficult to quantify at all."  Laughing
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER! : I don't want to argue about this again and again. if you go on another forum see how long your position regarding CERA lasts without a collective howling, and ridicule. Most analysts consider it a factor but not the huge factor you make it. Many find it even difficult to quantify at all. It is by no means the definitive factor you make it. As Scioscia says, it may have to do with relationships between different pitchers and catchers. The data has been studied exhaustively. It needs a huge sample to be statistically significant according to the numbers guys. We can agree to disagree but I'm absolutely sure that I would prefer Victor Martinez as my catcher this year and probably going forward for the next 4 years compared to Salty. I think the Sox let Victor to use the money elsewhere. They wanted the picks, wanted to get younger etc...but I think it will end up a mistake. 
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Boom, it's a not a matter of VMART over Salty. It's a matter of AGONE/CRAWFORD over Beltre/VMART. The idea is to replace production with production.

    When the FO weighed everything out, they felt this was the best direction to take, both short-term and long. This decision can't be weighed over 40 games.

    This thread sells Salty short. It is gonna require patience. Not over-reacting after
    80 at bats. We are seeing CC/AGONE/Beltre/VMART with great months of May. I wish all well.
    Salty is a gamble. If he doesn't pan out, they'll get another receiver. 
     
    As for how CERA would fare on another forum, it was new to this one just two years back. Now people are taking notice. They see a valid frame of reference and it's opening eyes.

    BTW: VMART is hitting .172 as a catcher. I'm sure this will change, but it's noteworthy. If he had been retained, it would have been as catcher.



    To Burrito: That was funny!  I'd love to have Wieters, but so do the O's!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    I would not mind if we over traded some of our best young talent for a top tier (already proven) catcher - people sometimes think prospects should be traded to land only Cy Young pitchers and 40+ homer mashers.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

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    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]I would not mind if we over traded some of our best young talent for a top tier (already proven) catcher - people sometimes think prospects should be traded to land only Cy Young pitchers and 40+ homer mashers.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]
    In a period when top-tier catchers are scarce, teams are not eager to trade one -- for anybody, least of all a prospect.  

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    We may have a future catcher in the farm system. It's such a tedious process to develop them. I'd hate to see the farm barren and then a good receiver is blocked and needlessly traded away because the FO jumped the gun.
    That's what the Mariners did when they traded a young Tek.

    Getting a good "defensive" receiver should come at little cost. If the offense can't compensate for a poor catcher's bat, hang it up.
    As has been stated, the avg. catcher in the ML's is hitting about .220.

    The farm took a good hit to get AGONE.
    I 'd hate to lose Kalish/Reddick when Drew walks after this year. They aren't geared to overpay in the FA market to fill that void.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

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    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER! : In a period when top-tier catchers are scarce, teams are not eager to trade one -- for anybody, least of all a prospect.  
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]
     

    Thats an obvious point I was completely overlooking.
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]I'm tired of watching Salty ground the ball through the right side of the infield if he is lucky enough to get a hit. He has hit the wall 3 times and cranked one or 2 balls to CF. Still hitting around .200 with little pop. He's slugging .267 for the year so far guys. Zero HR. Hitting .143 in his last 10 games. Look at his numbers. He has never hit well at the mlb level and every indicator is pointing to nowhere. Remember Hermida? Does anyone think Salty is even going to approach that bat, which got DFAed mid year. Look at this guys swing. He doesn't even come close to squaring up the ball in most AB. Almost 1/3 of his AB have been strikeouts.  I think at least 1/3 of his hits have been grounders through the 1st base hole when the 1st baseman is holding the runner. I saw a little of the Cardinals Reds game tonight. Every time I see Yadier Molina catch I start yelling "Get Him". What a difference a guy like him would make with this team.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Boomer -

    I like you, but there's a slightly greater than a 0% chance the Red Sox could even get the Cardinals to entertain a deal for Y Molina, let alone actually land him.  Molina is in his prime, and has a very reasonable club option remaining on his contract for 2012.  Plus, the Cardinals have a pretty good shot to win the wide open NL Central.  Why would they put up the white flag now? 
     
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    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]Hardly a no-brainer, Boom . No way VMART makes up for his inefficiency with the pitching staff, even if he hits .330 all year. Lester had twice the ERA with VMART as he did with Tek.   T-W-I-C-E. Anywhere there was a credible frame of reference, there was a full run + per game allowed when VMART CAUGHT. Perhaps if I enlarge the letters, this will get through. The Tigers are deploying him properly - as a PT catcher. And when you see Papi's numbers by year's end, you'll be thankful he was retained. AGONE over Beltre is the no-brainer.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    harness -

    You can't attribute this all to the catcher.  There are a lot of other factors that play into the equation that had nothing to do with VMart.  No one knows how many runs VMart cost with his catching abilities, and the fact that continue to claim you know is pretty ridiculous at this point.  I'm not saying VMart is a good catcher, and I'm not saying he shouldn't be a PTer.  All I'm saying is that you're making an awful lot of assumptions based on very little. 

    Oh, and for the record...if a pitcher doesn't "feel comfortable" pitching to a particular catcher, that's just as much the pitcher's fault as it is the catcher's.  In a lot of cases, those feelings are completely irrational.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER! : Boomer - I like you, but there's a slightly greater than a 0% chance the Red Sox could even get the Cardinals to entertain a deal for Y Molina, let alone actually land him.  Molina is in his prime, and has a very reasonable club option remaining on his contract for 2012.  Plus, the Cardinals have a pretty good shot to win the wide open NL Central.  Why would they put up the white flag now? 
    Posted by redsoxfan791[/QUOTE]

    I should have put up a little smiley face when I made that post. I was being goofy. Of course the Cardinals would not be interested in moving such a key player on their team. I was trying to enthusiastically exclaim the type of catcher we could benefit from as compared to what we have now. Last year, if I remember correctly, Yadier was the best catcher in the league in throwing out runners. This year, and it seems like most recent years, we are in last place in that category.

    I'm not holding my breath for a Yadier Molina trade! Cool
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Actually, I'm starting to like the Salty/Tek tandem.  Both are hitting better, and Salty is improving defensively.  Big dinger last night.  Biggest deal--if Harness's CERA has any legitimacy--is how the pitchers are responding, and I think that part is going well too.  Matsuzaka/Tek tonight and Lackey/Salty tomorrow--both against the Orioles.  We'll see. 

    But wasn't taking three at Yankee Stadium a good sign? 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from fenwayjack2. Show fenwayjack2's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    In Response to HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!:
    [QUOTE]I'm tired of watching Salty ground the ball through the right side of the infield if he is lucky enough to get a hit. He has hit the wall 3 times and cranked one or 2 balls to CF. Still hitting around .200 with little pop. He's slugging .267 for the year so far guys. Zero HR. Hitting .143 in his last 10 games. Look at his numbers. He has never hit well at the mlb level and every indicator is pointing to nowhere. Remember Hermida? Does anyone think Salty is even going to approach that bat, which got DFAed mid year. Look at this guys swing. He doesn't even come close to squaring up the ball in most AB. Almost 1/3 of his AB have been strikeouts.  I think at least 1/3 of his hits have been grounders through the 1st base hole when the 1st baseman is holding the runner. I saw a little of the Cardinals Reds game tonight. Every time I see Yadier Molina catch I start yelling "Get Him". What a difference a guy like him would make with this team.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Why was I one of the rare few who went beserk when Boy Blunder let Victor Martinez go?  Did anyone really think Salty was going to hit at all?  Losing VMart will go down as one of the biggest blunders of Epstein's career as GM. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Oh brother.....  Sealed
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Taking 3 in Yankee stadium was a joyous sign! It totally made my weekend and in reference to your question I certainly agree that as the pitching staff puts up better numbers it's a good sign. We should be putting up great numbers though with one of the most expensive pitching staffs in baseball. 

    Right now though we are still 12th in the AL in pitching, just ahead of the Twins and Orioles. 12th.

    Did anyone notice Buchholz putting his head down to think between each pitch. He's calling his own pitches and just waiting for the catcher to put the right finger down. Most pitchers must be thinking about what they want to throw next right? I would think that few mlb level pitches let the catcher take that totally out of their hands. They have a game plan before the game starts and generally they work a pre organized plan.
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    Boom, it's a not a matter of VMART over Salty. It's a matter of AGONE/CRAWFORD over Beltre/VMART. The idea is to replace production with production

    False! AGon was essential, but Crawford was not. It was AGon or Beltre, end of story. VMart could and should have been signed to catch, with a competent solid defensive backup catcher. VMart could have played the 5 or 10 games off that AGon will have to take but doesn't want to take off, plus another 25 to 30 reps at DH. That would be year one of a 4 year contract. Year 2 would be the same if Ortiz still has gas in the tank.

    The contract on VMart was a perfect fit with Ortiz aging out. VMart would be 32 in year one, and 33 in year two, hardly too old unless you think that Varitek wasn't too old when he was catching full-time in his late 30's. Ortiz would have been 2 years, max, at which time the Red Sox would have had an excellent hitting starting DH in year 3 and 4 who also would be the backup catcher and first baseman.

    Crawford's contract was a joke, is a joke, and will always be a joke. Bellsbury was already in place for the next 3 years, with other lefty slap hitters deep on the farm.

    Signing VMart would have allowed a smoothly timed trasition to the new full-time young catcher and for Ortiz to retire either this year or the end of next year when VMart would DH and catch part time to more than earn his 13 to 14M in the last 2 years of the deal.

    Theo made the silly mistake of falling for Crawford, I gave him the essential this winter move on AGon and how the Padres would sell for certain. Theo then went to Walmart for Salty, to cover for his lazy spending spree on Crawford. Getting Salty was fine, but going with Salty and Varitek was GM malfeasance and the very reason why the team started so pitifully. There is an adjustment period for pitcher pitching to any new catcher (Salty), as well as the fact that Salty does not currently have the offensive, throwing and blocking skills to handle an everday catcher role. Varitek is just an old washed up profile who, even though he can still provide marginal very part-time backup catching, there was no need to settle for that with the weakness at the position. 

    Salty should have started at AAA, VMart should have been signed, and a solid MLB ready defensive but weak hitting catcher should have been acquired. Varitek should have been told to retire, or be given the squatter's roster spot that Wakefield has, allowing for late inning pinch hitting moves via carrying a 3rd catcher. 

    The VMart contract fit perfectly, and had nothing to do with trading for AGon. Theo gets these silly ideas in his head and has too much money to play with without adult supervision. 

    Had Cameron moved in for Crawford, Mac and Kalish and Reddick been the outfield depth, VMart signed to the 4 year deal, Salty in AAA, a solid defensive catcher weak hitter been acquired, the Red Sox are likely a 104 wins or more team. 

    Crawford instead of VMart was the mistake, and a big time value and 2011 fit mistake. The fact that the current team is championship material doesn't change the fact that this move was stupidity, short and long term.    

    Theo has been an abject failure in not handling fan PR and moving on old washed up veterans. The squatters roster spots for these old veterans is GM malfeasance.
     
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    Re: HELLO! THEO...GET A NEW CATCHER!

    I remain a fan of 24-year-old catcher Lou Marson, a defensive specialist who is blocked in Cleveland by emerging star Carlos Santana:

    http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110318&content_id=17010516&vkey=news_cle&c_id=cle

    With their offensive firepower, the Red Sox should not care whether their defensively adept catcher hits .210.
     

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