Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    if you are hitting 350 to 400 at the AS break and go on an 82 game hit streak where you go 1 for 3 every game your average will go down EVERY game.
    100 for 250 = .400   82 for 246 = .333 or 366 for the season

    And just like if you hit 200 (50 for 250)at the AS break and you do the 1 for 3 every game the rest of the season your ave (82 for 246) is .333 and the 200 goes up BUT you will not ever get over 266 mark

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenwellforpresident. Show greenwellforpresident's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    I have no idea what your point is.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to greenwellforpresident's comment:

    I have no idea what your point is.



    Point using a one demensional stats to bolster your belief or theory is BS thinking.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    Here's another one:

    Harmon Killebrew is in the Hall of Fame with a .256 batting average.  That's because he also had a .376 OBP, a .509 SLG, 573 HR and 1584 RBI.  If you only looked at his batting average you'd think he was a scrub.

    Even people who only get 'old school' stats should be able to grasp this. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

        That is why IGGY is not your average player !!!

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    Iggy is a good example of a high batting average that's misleading.  Although he's maintaining a high average a lot longer than most people expected.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    Killebrew also was in the top 10 in Ks eight times; I can just imagine the posters screaming that he need to "put the ball in play" more often to be a good player.

    The point is, when somone's OBP is high enough, the BA is almost meaningless. Add a nice SLG% and the BA does become meaningless, IMO.

    In theory, I'm fine with someone can bat .200 with 100 hits in 500 ABs, as long as he also has something like 150 BBs, 35 HRs, and 50 2Bs.

    Sox4ever

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    One more reason to eschew reliance on one data point.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    That's also one reason I use OPS as my main guide to a player's offensive value. It certainly is not everything, but it combines OBP (which is a better indicator than BA) with SLG that involves XBHs. Of course, it does not measure SBs, clutch hits, and other factors, but it usually tells a good story.

    Sox4ever

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    That's also one reason I use OPS as my main guide to a player's offensive value. It certainly is not everything, but it combines OBP (which is a better indicator than BA) with SLG that involves XBHs. Of course, it does not measure SBs, clutch hits, and other factors, but it usually tells a good story.

    Sox4ever



    I pretty much opened up this thread to say this.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Killebrew also was in the top 10 in Ks eight times; I can just imagine the posters screaming that he need to "put the ball in play" more often to be a good player.

    The point is, when somone's OBP is high enough, the BA is almost meaningless. Add a nice SLG% and the BA does become meaningless, IMO.

    In theory, I'm fine with someone can bat .200 with 100 hits in 500 ABs, as long as he also has something like 150 BBs, 35 HRs, and 50 2Bs.

    Sox4ever

     


     

    Batting Avg. is an excellent stat. Good enough for me.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    That's also one reason I use OPS as my main guide to a player's offensive value. It certainly is not everything, but it combines OBP (which is a better indicator than BA) with SLG that involves XBHs. Of course, it does not measure SBs, clutch hits, and other factors, but it usually tells a good story.

    Sox4ever

     



    I pretty much opened up this thread to say this.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You opened this thread????

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    For a power hitter, it is acceptable to have a somewhat lower batting average. If you are not a power hitter, batting average is very important. If you have a low average and little or no power, you are not a good hitter. The few who have high averages and a lot of power are the true super stars. Triple crown types. Batting average should not  be looked at exclusively , you should check other stats too. But batting average is important and should not be taken lightly. There is too much of a tendency by some of the metric guys to just dismiss the traditional stats. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Killebrew also was in the top 10 in Ks eight times; I can just imagine the posters screaming that he need to "put the ball in play" more often to be a good player.

    The point is, when somone's OBP is high enough, the BA is almost meaningless. Add a nice SLG% and the BA does become meaningless, IMO.

    In theory, I'm fine with someone can bat .200 with 100 hits in 500 ABs, as long as he also has something like 150 BBs, 35 HRs, and 50 2Bs.

    Sox4ever



    I like the use of Killebrew irt stats.  He struck out 1699 times, but that stat is rendered moot in view of the fact thsat he also walked 1559.  The high Ks mostly ensures a low average, but the high wlaks ensures he is on base a lot.  And if the high Ks is the result of a guy swinging for the fences, then I think you have the best of all worlds.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    K's are just outs, BB's are as good as singles, so a high OBP is more telling than a players AVG.  would you rather have a AVG/OBP .250/.350 guy? Or a .300/.300 guy?

    Thats a simplistic argument.  I understand that K's aren't productive outs and walks don't move a runner from first to third.  So I like to look at the quality of hits as well, would you rather have a AVG/SLG .330/.400 or a .250/.500 guy? 

    Of course we could just bypass all of this and look at OPS.  Which is one of thee best stats to look at (if you had to pick only one).

     What if a guy was batting below .200 let's say .175 but yet all his hits were home runs with men on base? He'd likely be an MVP candidate.  Of course that is almost statistically impossible, but theoretically possible.  I think my point is solid.  AVG it'sself is basically meaningless however most good players do have higher than normal averages, yet it is not a prerequisite to be a great hitter as there are some great productive hitters who tend to have lower averages.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    I always thought it would be interesting for the Sox to look into acquiring Adam Dunn (though the presence of Papi at DH probably always ruled it out). His usual season (at least pre-White Sox) is probably hitting .230 with roughly 400 K's, but with a .370-plus OBP and around 40 bombs.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    For a power hitter, it is acceptable to have a somewhat lower batting average. If you are not a power hitter, batting average is very important. If you have a low average and little or no power, you are not a good hitter. The few who have high averages and a lot of power are the true super stars. Triple crown types. Batting average should not  be looked at exclusively , you should check other stats too. But batting average is important and should not be taken lightly. There is too much of a tendency by some of the metric guys to just dismiss the traditional stats. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.



    BA is important, but I'll take a leadoff hitter with a .250 BA and .400 OBP over one with a .300 BA and a .350 OBP as long as the XBHs and SBs are pretty even.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    For a power hitter, it is acceptable to have a somewhat lower batting average. If you are not a power hitter, batting average is very important. If you have a low average and little or no power, you are not a good hitter. The few who have high averages and a lot of power are the true super stars. Triple crown types. Batting average should not  be looked at exclusively , you should check other stats too. But batting average is important and should not be taken lightly. There is too much of a tendency by some of the metric guys to just dismiss the traditional stats. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     



    BA is important, but I'll take a leadoff hitter with a .250 BA and .400 OBP over one with a .300 BA and a .350 OBP as long as the XBHs and SBs are pretty even.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    As a rule, the higher batting average would lead to a higher OBP.   Not too many .250 hitters are going to have anything close to a .400 OBP.  In most cases the .300 hitter has a higher OBP than the .250 hitter. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    As a rule, the higher batting average would lead to a higher OBP.   Not too many .250 hitters are going to have anything close to a .400 OBP.  In most cases the .300 hitter has a higher OBP than the .250 hitter. 



    The thing is, though, there are just different types of hitters, and batting average alone won't tell what kind of hitter they are.  If their career batting average is over .300, then sure, they're probably a good hitter.  But it's the guys that are below .300 where you see the biggest differences.

    Omar Vizquel 272/336/352 = 688 OPS

    J. D. Drew 278/384/489 = 873 OPS

    Drew's average was just a few points higher but he drew a lot more walks and he had a lot more power.  So he was just a much different kind of hitter.

    And you can find a lot of examples like that. 

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    For a power hitter, it is acceptable to have a somewhat lower batting average. If you are not a power hitter, batting average is very important. If you have a low average and little or no power, you are not a good hitter. The few who have high averages and a lot of power are the true super stars. Triple crown types. Batting average should not  be looked at exclusively , you should check other stats too. But batting average is important and should not be taken lightly. There is too much of a tendency by some of the metric guys to just dismiss the traditional stats. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     

     



    BA is important, but I'll take a leadoff hitter with a .250 BA and .400 OBP over one with a .300 BA and a .350 OBP as long as the XBHs and SBs are pretty even.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    As a rule, the higher batting average would lead to a higher OBP.   Not too many .250 hitters are going to have anything close to a .400 OBP.  In most cases the .300 hitter has a higher OBP than the .250 hitter. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    That is true, but that does not mean BA is more imnportant than OBP, just because most high BA players have nice OBPs as well.

    Take the 8 to 10 year run by Adam Dunn. The guy had two big strike in your book:

    1) Low BA

    2) High Ks

    In his 8 years with Ciny he had a .247 BA and 1212 Ks in 4562 PAs (8 seasons).

    In 2 seasons with Wash he had a .264 BA and 376 Ks in 1316 PAs (2 seasons).

    However, he had a .380 OBP with Cincy & .378 with Wash. He also had a SLG% above .520 with both clubs and 38 or more HRs 8 straight years and 9 out of 10 years. He had 100+ RBIS six times and 90+ 8 times. The HRs and high OBP more than made up for the high Ksd and low BA.

    Looking closer to home:

               BA   OBP

    Nava  .294  .381

    Ellsb  .299  .356

    Vict    .295  .349

    Quite a big OBP range for very similar BAs.

     

     

    However, he cranked 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    The only stat that matters is wins.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    Batting ave measures a players ability to hit...OBP measures his command of the strike zone...typically players with low batting averages that lack power struggle to draw walks because pitcher's throw it over the plate. Conversley those with low batting averages and high OBP typically are guys with pop. 

    There's a handful of players that approach plus the 100 each year, most are in the plus 50 point range...plus 75 is where most of the top 20 hitters sit. Expecting a player to consistently exceed 100 points in OBP above their batting ave is reserved for the elite. 

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    For a power hitter, it is acceptable to have a somewhat lower batting average. If you are not a power hitter, batting average is very important. If you have a low average and little or no power, you are not a good hitter. The few who have high averages and a lot of power are the true super stars. Triple crown types. Batting average should not  be looked at exclusively , you should check other stats too. But batting average is important and should not be taken lightly. There is too much of a tendency by some of the metric guys to just dismiss the traditional stats. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     

     

     



    BA is important, but I'll take a leadoff hitter with a .250 BA and .400 OBP over one with a .300 BA and a .350 OBP as long as the XBHs and SBs are pretty even.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    As a rule, the higher batting average would lead to a higher OBP.   Not too many .250 hitters are going to have anything close to a .400 OBP.  In most cases the .300 hitter has a higher OBP than the .250 hitter. 

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    That is true, but that does not mean BA is more imnportant than OBP, just because most high BA players have nice OBPs as well.

     

    Take the 8 to 10 year run by Adam Dunn. The guy had two big strike in your book:

    1) Low BA

    2) High Ks

    In his 8 years with Ciny he had a .247 BA and 1212 Ks in 4562 PAs (8 seasons).

    In 2 seasons with Wash he had a .264 BA and 376 Ks in 1316 PAs (2 seasons).

    However, he had a .380 OBP with Cincy & .378 with Wash. He also had a SLG% above .520 with both clubs and 38 or more HRs 8 straight years and 9 out of 10 years. He had 100+ RBIS six times and 90+ 8 times. The HRs and high OBP more than made up for the high Ksd and low BA.

    Looking closer to home:

               BA   OBP

    Nava  .294  .381

    Ellsb  .299  .356

    Vict    .295  .349

    Quite a big OBP range for very similar BAs.

     

     

    However, he cranked 

    [/QUOTE]


    That is just one example. Nava has gotten quite a few walks this year. I don't know if that will continue. He is having a very good year. He might be hitting in situations where he is being pitched to carefully.  Here is another way to look at it. The top six batting averages on the team all have higher , in many cases significantly higher, OBPs than anyone else on the roster.  I would think that would hold true for most , if not all , teams. The guys with the higher averages are going to almost always have higher OBPs than the lower average guys.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    Of course there is a correlation between AVG and OBP. Because how many times you hit the ball is half the equation.  AVG measures how often you make contact, all things considered.  You can be a great contact hitter who may be capable of .280-.300 seasons but with no power and an OBP that is marginally higher is not really a valuable player at all.....think Pedro ciraco.  

    Yes generally speaking the better the player the higher the avg, but it's not a perfect correlation.  You can have two players both with a .275 avg and significantly different WAR.  

    You can look at player xyz and see he has a .300 avg and guess he's probably a pretty good hitter but he could be a .300/.330/.400 hitter or he could be .300/.450/.550 player.  One is a decent player the other is likely a MVPcandidate. BIG difference SAME average

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here is a fact for those that love using Batting average as a guide to how good a player is

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

    For a power hitter, it is acceptable to have a somewhat lower batting average. If you are not a power hitter, batting average is very important. If you have a low average and little or no power, you are not a good hitter. The few who have high averages and a lot of power are the true super stars. Triple crown types. Batting average should not  be looked at exclusively , you should check other stats too. But batting average is important and should not be taken lightly. There is too much of a tendency by some of the metric guys to just dismiss the traditional stats. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     

     

     

     



    BA is important, but I'll take a leadoff hitter with a .250 BA and .400 OBP over one with a .300 BA and a .350 OBP as long as the XBHs and SBs are pretty even.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    As a rule, the higher batting average would lead to a higher OBP.   Not too many .250 hitters are going to have anything close to a .400 OBP.  In most cases the .300 hitter has a higher OBP than the .250 hitter. 

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    That is true, but that does not mean BA is more imnportant than OBP, just because most high BA players have nice OBPs as well.

     

     

    Take the 8 to 10 year run by Adam Dunn. The guy had two big strike in your book:

    1) Low BA

    2) High Ks

    In his 8 years with Ciny he had a .247 BA and 1212 Ks in 4562 PAs (8 seasons).

    In 2 seasons with Wash he had a .264 BA and 376 Ks in 1316 PAs (2 seasons).

    However, he had a .380 OBP with Cincy & .378 with Wash. He also had a SLG% above .520 with both clubs and 38 or more HRs 8 straight years and 9 out of 10 years. He had 100+ RBIS six times and 90+ 8 times. The HRs and high OBP more than made up for the high Ksd and low BA.

    Looking closer to home:

               BA   OBP

    Nava  .294  .381

    Ellsb  .299  .356

    Vict    .295  .349

    Quite a big OBP range for very similar BAs.

     

     

    However, he cranked 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    That is just one example. Nava has gotten quite a few walks this year. I don't know if that will continue. He is having a very good year. He might be hitting in situations where he is being pitched to carefully.  Here is another way to look at it. The top six batting averages on the team all have higher , in many cases significantly higher, OBPs than anyone else on the roster.  I would think that would hold true for most , if not all , teams. The guys with the higher averages are going to almost always have higher OBPs than the lower average guys.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Nava has a long history of having a very nice OBP. He's almost always aroung 100 points higher than his BA>

              BA  OBP

    2013 .294  .381

    2012 .243  .352

    2010 .242  .351 

    Majors .267  .365

     

    AAA  .280  .379

    AA    .364  .479

    A      .340  .427

    Ind  .371  .475

    Minors .317  .415

     

    I'm not expecting his OBP to be much lower than 90 points above his BA anytime soon.

    Some players, even sub .280 hitters have a knack for walking a lot. Some players walk less than the norm, regardless of their BA.

    Here's some interesting numbers:

    Career  BA  OBP Differential

    D Nava .267  .365 .098

    Napoli .257  .354  .097

    Ortiz   .287 .381  .094

    Gomes .243 .334  .091

    Ross    .236  .322  .086

     

    Pedey .302 .370  .068

    Drew  .263  .329  .068

    Vict    .277  .342  .065

    Salty  .244  .309  .065

     

    Ellsb  .297  .350  .053

     

    Midd  .255  .298  .043

     

    Interesting to see Nava, Napoli, Gomes and Ross all with pretty los BAs, but pretty decent OBPs.

     

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