Here's another debate for everyone

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Here's another debate for everyone

    Is it the fact Webster truly isn't ready for the majors, or Salty's game calling?  He pitched a great game with Ross behind the plate.  Regardless I cant repeat enough, Farrell should bring in Doubront or another sooner rather than later this time.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    Is it the fact Webster truly isn't ready for the majors, or Salty's game calling?  He pitched a great game with Ross behind the plate.  Regardless I cant repeat enough, Farrell should bring in Doubront or another sooner rather than later this time.

     




    Good move this time by Farrell before the kids confidence really got crushed, along with our chances to win.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    I wouldn't go blaming Saltalamacchia just yet.  Webster has so little of a track record either way.

     

    And his previous outing was not exactly against one of the higher powered offenses in the AL either.

     

    Bottom line - neither game should be viewed as the representative sample, and there is no need to simply blame the catcher...

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    I wouldn't go blaming Saltalamacchia just yet.  Webster has so little of a track record either way.

     

    And his previous outing was not exactly against one of the higher powered offenses in the AL either.

     

    Bottom line - neither game should be viewed as the representative sample, and there is no need to simply blame the catcher...

     



    The Twins haven't exactly dominated anyone this season either.  Regardless of the outcome or who's to blame I'm glad we pulled the kid.  I just think Ross calls a better game and the team is stronger with him behind the plate, especially with a younger pitcher but he may have been hurting after last night.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    I don't know, but it does seem like every time a Sox pitcher gets smoked, Salty is the guy behind the plate.  His CERA is ballooning tonight, and coming into the game it was already 1.4 runs higher than Ross's.  Yikes.

    I'm afraid when all is said and done Salty almost has to be part of the problem.  The numbers keep adding up.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    I don't know, but it does seem like every time a Sox pitcher gets smoked, Salty is the guy behind the plate.  His CERA is ballooning tonight, and coming into the game it was already 1.4 runs higher than Ross's.  Yikes.

    I'm afraid when all is said and done Salty almost has to be part of the problem.  The numbers keep adding up.



    It's become obvious Hfx

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    Up to the minute:

    Ross CERA 2.72

    Salty CERA 4.64

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Up to the minute:

    Ross CERA 2.72

    Salty CERA 4.64

    /QUOTE]

    Notin's right the kid doesn't have much experience but the numbers can't be overlooked. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Up to the minute:

    Ross CERA 2.72

    Salty CERA 4.64

     



    I'd prefer to go with OPSa.  The edge is Ross .683 and Salty .700.  But at this point, almost any mix will move the goal posts.  Salty catches Doubront relatively more often.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Up to the minute:

    Ross CERA 2.72

    Salty CERA 4.64

     

     



    I'd prefer to go with OPSa.  The edge is Ross .683 and Salty .700.  But at this point, almost any mix will move the goal posts.  Salty catches Doubront relatively more often.

     

     



    I think Salty has done better defensively "no doubt" but I still have to question his arm, plate discipline and how far he has matured with guys like Tek and now Ross as mentors with his game calling skills.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    First of all ross is not a full time catcher nor will he be, so thats not going to happen.

     

    Saltys Cera after a full season last year was pretty good, hes young still and still developing as a catcher and is dealing with some of the growing pains that catchers deal with.

     

    This game is the result of webster have zero command and has nothing to with salty period.

    Craze ive seen your posts and 80 percent of them are digs at salty, if you dont like him thats fine and is your perogative, but please stop trying to blame him for every little thing.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

    First of all ross is not a full time catcher nor will he be, so thats not going to happen.

     

    Saltys Cera after a full season last year was pretty good, hes young still and still developing as a catcher and is dealing with some of the growing pains that catchers deal with.

     

    This game is the result of webster have zero command and has nothing to with salty period.

    Craze ive seen your posts and 80 percent of them are digs at salty, if you dont like him thats fine and is your perogative, but please stop trying to blame him for every little thing.




    It's a friendly debate and your opinion counts but my digs on Salty are facts.  I don't dislike him and hes a great team guy but my concerns are there for everyone to see on a daily basis.  As far as Ross being an every day catcher?  You are absolutely correct but I feel the same about Salty.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    First of all ross is not a full time catcher nor will he be, so thats not going to happen.

     

    Saltys Cera after a full season last year was pretty good, hes young still and still developing as a catcher and is dealing with some of the growing pains that catchers deal with.

     

    This game is the result of webster have zero command and has nothing to with salty period.

    Craze ive seen your posts and 80 percent of them are digs at salty, if you dont like him thats fine and is your perogative, but please stop trying to blame him for every little thing.

     




    It's a friendly debate and your opinion counts but my digs on Salty are facts.  I don't dislike him and hes a great team guy but my concerns are there for everyone to see on a daily basis.  As far as Ross being an every day catcher?  You are absolutely correct but I feel the same about Salty.

     



    You cant blame salty for tonight and thats a fact, Webster couldnt throw a strike period, it doesnt matter where or what salty is calling if Webster cant hit a spot like he couldnt tonight.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    First of all ross is not a full time catcher nor will he be, so thats not going to happen.

     

    Saltys Cera after a full season last year was pretty good, hes young still and still developing as a catcher and is dealing with some of the growing pains that catchers deal with.

     

    This game is the result of webster have zero command and has nothing to with salty period.

    Craze ive seen your posts and 80 percent of them are digs at salty, if you dont like him thats fine and is your perogative, but please stop trying to blame him for every little thing.

     




    It's a friendly debate and your opinion counts but my digs on Salty are facts.  I don't dislike him and hes a great team guy but my concerns are there for everyone to see on a daily basis.  As far as Ross being an every day catcher?  You are absolutely correct but I feel the same about Salty.

     

     



    You cant blame salty for tonight and thats a fact, Webster couldnt throw a strike period, it doesnt matter where or what salty is calling if Webster cant hit a spot like he couldnt tonight.

     

     

    Think about this,

    When Tek was struggling offensively in his final years the overall plate dicipline and defense was still better than Saltys is today.  The only debate was whether Teks game calling skills/CERA made up for his weaknesses.    

    With that said, why should we feel Salty is a worthy every day catcher when even CERA is questionable after playing with  Tek and Ross?  I won't argue or debate that after tonight, Webster and Doubront shouldn't be starters just yet.

    You can compare Saltys OBP after tonights two hits if you want but will he ever finish higher, or call a better game?  Until then Salty is a decent backup catcher at best.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    Yeah a rookie is supposed to come right up and throw a no no.

    There is nothing worst than Yankee fans other than Red Sox fans when it comes to developing young pitching.

    I remember defending Clay Buchholz on this very site when he first came up.

    Many Sox fans wanted him gone. Wasn't that long ago.

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Up to the minute:

    Ross CERA 2.72

    Salty CERA 4.64

    I'd prefer to go with OPSa.  The edge is Ross .683 and Salty .700.



    But looking at it from the offensive standpoint, you can have two teams with similar OPS but one team has significantly more runs.  And that has to be because that team is hitting better with runners on base. 

    For whatever reason we give up more runs when Salty catches and it's been going on steadily for 2 + seasons.

    Maybe baserunners are able to steal signs on Salty better.  It could be something as simple as that. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Up to the minute:

    Ross CERA 2.72

    Salty CERA 4.64

    I'd prefer to go with OPSa.  The edge is Ross .683 and Salty .700.

     



    But looking at it from the offensive standpoint, you can have two teams with similar OPS but one team has significantly more runs.  And that has to be because that team is hitting better with runners on base. 

     

    For whatever reason we give up more runs when Salty catches and it's been going on steadily for 2 + seasons.

    Maybe baserunners are able to steal signs on Salty better.  It could be something as simple as that. 



    Could be Hfx,

    Even if its stealing signs or poor game calling ability, if you couple that with inconsistent offense and the fact base runners have no fear of Saltys arm its a formula that just doesn't help more than hurt the club.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    Salty's offense is no issue for me personally.  He has terrible games and strikes out a ton, but for a catcher he's a better than average hitter, strange as it may seem.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Salty's offense is no issue for me personally.  He has terrible stretches and he strikes out a ton, but for a catcher he's a better than average hitter, strange as it may seem.




     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    Note:

    1) small sample sizes (7 or more IP)

    2) some tiny sample sizes (look at the tiny ones with one catcher)

    3) some wide innings differentials (in innings and results)

     

    Lester:

    w/Salty  (25.0) 3.24  .559

    w/Ross  (18.2)  3.38  .735

     

    Buchholz

    w/Salty (29.2) 2.12  .596

    w/Ross  (21.0) 0.86  .483

     

    Dempster

    w/Salty (21.2) 2.91  .544

    w/Ross  (2.95) 2.95  .713

     

    Doubront (before tonight's game)

    w/Salty (22.0) 6.14  .826

    w/Ross  (5.0)   3.60  .570

     

    Lackey

    w/Salty (11.0)  3.27  .645

    w/Ross    (4.1)  4.15  .760

     

    5 Starters:

    CERA: Salty 3- Ross 2

    Opp's OPS: Salty 3- Ross 2

     

     

    Aceves

    w/Salty (14.0)  9.00  1.100

    w/Ross  (3.2)    7.36  .813

     

    Mortensen

    w/Salty  (11.0)  4.09  .562

    w/Ross     (5.2)  3.18  .687

     

    Tazawa

    w/Salty  (9.0)  3.00  .654

    w/Ross   (5.1)  1.69  .673

     

    Uehara

    w/Salty  (7.2)  2.35  .564

    w/Ross   (6.0)  3.00  .857

     

    Bailey

    w/Salty  (8.1)  2.16  .641

    w/Ross   (4.0)  0.00  .000

     

    Wilson

    w/Salty  (8.0)  1.12  .691

    w/Ross   (3.2)  2.45  .718

     

    Miller

    w/Salty  (6.0)  3.00  .470

    w/Ross   (2.2)  3.38  .800

     

    Hanrahan

    w/Salty  (5.1)  11.81  1.150

    w/Ross   (2.0)   4.50   1.375

     

    Relievers:

    CERA- Salty 3- Ross 5

    OPS- Salty 6- Ross 2

     

    TOTAL:

    CERA: Salty 6- Ross 7

    OPS: Salty 9- Ross 4

     

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Note:

    1) small sample sizes (7 or more IP)

    2) some tiny sample sizes (look at the tiny ones with one catcher)

    3) some wide innings differentials (in innings and results)

     

    Lester:

    w/Salty  (25.0) 3.24  .559

    w/Ross  (18.2)  3.38  .735

     

    Buchholz

    w/Salty (29.2) 2.12  .596

    w/Ross  (21.0) 0.86  .483

     

    Dempster

    w/Salty (21.2) 2.91  .544

    w/Ross  (2.95) 2.95  .713

     

    Doubront (before tonight's game)

    w/Salty (22.0) 6.14  .826

    w/Ross  (5.0)   3.60  .570

     

    Lackey

    w/Salty (11.0)  3.27  .645

    w/Ross    (4.1)  4.15  .760

     

    5 Starters:

    CERA: Salty 3- Ross 2

    Opp's OPS: Salty 3- Ross 2

     

     

    Aceves

    w/Salty (14.0)  9.00  1.100

    w/Ross  (3.2)    7.36  .813

     

    Mortensen

    w/Salty  (11.0)  4.09  .562

    w/Ross     (5.2)  3.18  .687

     

    Tazawa

    w/Salty  (9.0)  3.00  .654

    w/Ross   (5.1)  1.69  .673

     

    Uehara

    w/Salty  (7.2)  2.35  .564

    w/Ross   (6.0)  3.00  .857

     

    Bailey

    w/Salty  (8.1)  2.16  .641

    w/Ross   (4.0)  0.00  .000

     

    Wilson

    w/Salty  (8.0)  1.12  .691

    w/Ross   (3.2)  2.45  .718

     

    Miller

    w/Salty  (6.0)  3.00  .470

    w/Ross   (2.2)  3.38  .800

     

    Hanrahan

    w/Salty  (5.1)  11.81  1.150

    w/Ross   (2.0)   4.50   1.375

     

    Relievers:

    CERA- Salty 3- Ross 5

    OPS- Salty 6- Ross 2

     

    TOTAL:

    CERA: Salty 6- Ross 7

    OPS: Salty 9- Ross 4

     

     




    moon,

     

    I think the final comment I can make on Saltys is this.  We have some pretty good pitching overall, if we had another veteran catcher with good game calling savy to go along with Ross I think it could make a world of difference moving forward.  Our current catching situation no matter how many stats you look is basically not much different than when we had Salty and Tek.  We all know that wasn't great unless you want to use OPS to cover all the other weaknesses.

    No improvement to the club at the catching position other than Saty blocking a few more balls, just the status quo after many years of trying.  With that said we also need another big bat and I don't feel Ells is cutting it as a leadoff batter so its certainly not our only concern.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    moon,

     

    I think the final comment I can make on Saltys is this.  We have some pretty good pitching overall, if we had another veteran catcher with good game calling savy to go along with Ross I think it could make a world of difference moving forward.  Our current catching situation no matter how many stats you look is basically not much different than when we had Salty and Tek.  We all know that wasn't great unless you want to use OPS to cover all the other weaknesses.

    No improvement to the club at the catching position, just the status quo after many years of trying.  With that said we also need another big bat and I don't feel Ells is cutting it as a leadoff batter so its certainly not our only concern.

     

    Fair enough. Look, I I have not said our catching position is an overall strength for a long time (even with VMart). I actually feel better about our current catcher situation now than last year or 2011, or 2010. The future is brighter with Vazquez, Lavarnway and Swihart and hoping one makes it big. I think Ross is better than Shoppach and VTek during his last year or two, and Salty now is better than Salty in 2011 and 2012. 

    Our biggest weaknesses are still:

    1) A third solid SP (Dempster may fill that role over time, but it wouldn't hurt with him as the #4, and with our #5 in serious trouble, upgrading the rotation has been #1 on my wish list for many many years.)

    2) A solid 3/4 slot hitter to bat behind Papi, so Napoli can be the #5 hitter and Pedey back to #2 without shortening the line-up.

    I get your concern about Ellsbury at leadoff, but I'm not sure that Victorino and Gomes vs LHPs and Nava vs RHPs wouldn't do a better than average job at leadoff. I'd bet they combine for a .385+ OBP combined as platoons.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    moon,

     

    I think the final comment I can make on Saltys is this.  We have some pretty good pitching overall, if we had another veteran catcher with good game calling savy to go along with Ross I think it could make a world of difference moving forward.  Our current catching situation no matter how many stats you look is basically not much different than when we had Salty and Tek.  We all know that wasn't great unless you want to use OPS to cover all the other weaknesses.

    No improvement to the club at the catching position, just the status quo after many years of trying.  With that said we also need another big bat and I don't feel Ells is cutting it as a leadoff batter so its certainly not our only concern.

     

    Fair enough. Look, I I have not said our catching position is an overall strength for a long time (even with VMart). I actually feel better about our current catcher situation now than last year or 2011, or 2010. The future is brighter with Vazquez, Lavarnway and Swihart and hoping one makes it big. I think Ross is better than Shoppach and VTek during his last year or two, and Salty now is better than Salty in 2011 and 2012. 

    Our biggest weaknesses are still:

    1) A third solid SP (Dempster may fill that role over time, but it wouldn't hurt with him as the #4, and with our #5 in serious trouble, upgrading the rotation has been #1 on my wish list for many many years.)

    2) A solid 3/4 slot hitter to bat behind Papi, so Napoli can be the #5 hitter and Pedey back to #2 without shortening the line-up.

    I get your concern about Ellsbury at leadoff, but I'm not sure that Victorino and Gomes vs LHPs and Nava vs RHPs wouldn't do a better than average job at leadoff. I'd bet they combine for a .385+ OBP combined as platoons.

     



    I agree on all points moon including the fact we don't have anyone on this club that is a true leadoff hitter.  Maybe a big trade while we are in the middle of the race just may keep us there and much better off moving forward.

     

     

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    I dont really like the comparison of Tek and Ross, Ross is good but Tek was kind of a freak of nature, one becuase of his ability to control the game and two becuase of his work ethic. He worked harder then any other player in baseball when it came to studying the lineups of opposing teams. Tek was a red sox great and might even be a hall of famer one day, Ross is, has been a back up, a good back up, but a buck up catcher non the less.

    If their was a drastic improvement we could make to the catching situation id be all for it, but right now their isnt so we need to stick with what we got, and hope that salty continues to improve this season on what he did last season.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:

    Yeah a rookie is supposed to come right up and throw a no no.

    There is nothing worst than Yankee fans other than Red Sox fans when it comes to developing young pitching.

    I remember defending Clay Buchholz on this very site when he first came up.

    Many Sox fans wanted him gone. Wasn't that long ago.

     

     



    I remember when i was at a sox yankees game in 2011 when josh reddick hit the walk off hit. I was sitting next to a bunch of yankee fans, and we were respectfully trash talking and just talking a little baseball. I remember when carl crawford came up to bat and the boos began to fly. The yankee fan i had been talking with leans over and says "you guys are meaner to your own players then to the players on the other team".

    Its becuase many sox and yankees fans expect excellence all the time. When they play so many games thats impossible.

     
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