Here's another debate for everyone

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

    I dont really like the comparison of Tek and Ross, Ross is good but Tek was kind of a freak of nature, one becuase of his ability to control the game and two becuase of his work ethic. He worked harder then any other player in baseball when it came to studying the lineups of opposing teams. Tek was a red sox great and might even be a hall of famer one day, Ross is, has been a back up, a good back up, but a buck up catcher non the less.

    If their was a drastic improvement we could make to the catching situation id be all for it, but right now their isnt so we need to stick with what we got, and hope that salty continues to improve this season on what he did last season.



    My comparison between Ross and Tek certainly didn't reflect what kind of catcher Tek was during his prime.  During Teks last few years I see the similarities.  I also agree with moon that with Lav and Vasquez something probably gives sooner than later at the catching position.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    I really dont see lav as being an improvent behind the dish. The only area in which he beats Salty is in caught stealing, obp and average, outside of that salty has proved to be a little better in some of the other areas. Vasquez on the other hand is interesting and ive like what i have seen from him so far. He is a much better future catching option, lav really is a dh or even possible outfielder before id want him to catch.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    I really dont see lav as being an improvent behind the dish. The only area in which he beats Salty is in caught stealing, obp and average, outside of that salty has proved to be a little better in some of the other areas. Vasquez on the other hand is interesting and ive like what i have seen from him so far. He is a much better future catching option, lav really is a dh or even possible outfielder before id want him to catch.

     



    If you feel Lav may be better at CS, OBP and BA whats left?  Salty has had two pretty good mentors to improve his game calling skills.  I have no doubt both Vasquez or Lav could possibly do as good or better defensively etc. without the mentors Salty has.

     

    My call would be to trade Salty ASAP, then bring up Lav so he can learn the staff and get the major league experience this season he really needs.  Hopefully Lav does well and Vasquez pushes him to become the starting catcher when Ross is gone.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     



    I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, Lav doesnt have the skill set to be a full time catcher in the big leagues, salty does, and did before the sox got him, his only real issue has been throwing to second when he developed that mental block with texas. Lav is frankly a liabilty at the catcher position and he will not be a starter with the redsox at catcher, like is aid vazques is different case.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

    I dont really like the comparison of Tek and Ross, Ross is good but Tek was kind of a freak of nature, one becuase of his ability to control the game and two becuase of his work ethic. He worked harder then any other player in baseball when it came to studying the lineups of opposing teams. Tek was a red sox great and might even be a hall of famer one day, Ross is, has been a back up, a good back up, but a buck up catcher non the less.

    If their was a drastic improvement we could make to the catching situation id be all for it, but right now their isnt so we need to stick with what we got, and hope that salty continues to improve this season on what he did last season.



    I was only comparing Ross to VTek the back-up (2010-2011).

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     

     



    I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, Lav doesnt have the skill set to be a full time catcher in the big leagues, salty does, and did before the sox got him, his only real issue has been throwing to second when he developed that mental block with texas. Lav is frankly a liabilty at the catcher position and he will not be a starter with the redsox at catcher, like is aid vazques is different case.

     



    As compared to catcher prospects in our past, Lava/Vazquez/Swihart vs who? Kotaras? Butler? Federwiecz (sp?)

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     

     



    I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, Lav doesnt have the skill set to be a full time catcher in the big leagues, salty does, and did before the sox got him, his only real issue has been throwing to second when he developed that mental block with texas. Lav is frankly a liabilty at the catcher position and he will not be a starter with the redsox at catcher, like is aid vazques is different case.

     

     



    As compared to catcher prospects in our past, Lava/Vazquez/Swihart vs who? Kotaras? Butler? Federwiecz (sp?)

     



    I will definitely agree that our catching prospects are currently better then any catching prospects I can remember in the sox system, in particular Vazquez who seems to be a better all around option.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Up to the minute:

    Ross CERA 2.72

    Salty CERA 4.64

     




    The #'s speak for themselves but Johnny Bench calling the pitches tonight wouldn't have saved Webster from that beatdown.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:



    I'd prefer to go with OPSa.  




    Here is the last 3 seasons of OPSa......

    2013
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia--.731
    David Ross--------------.683

    2012
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia--.779
    Kelly Shoppach---------.688

    2011
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia--.746
    Jason Varitek-----------.662

     

    Combined, those are huge advantages. About a .85 OPS advantage the last 2.2 seasons. Thats like having our pitchers have to face a SS every single at bat when the backups caught[Tek-Shop-Ross] and our pitchers having to face a corner OF every single at bat for the last 2.2 seasons when Salty caught. Its actually worse then that since that difference is only .70 OPS between an average SS and average corner OF.

    Let me add that those numbers don't even take into account PB's, WP's, or the entire running game. Which is why I still prefer CERA. But OPSa is useful and its Salt in the wound for Salty.

     

     

     

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to BMav's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:



    I'd prefer to go with OPSa.  

     

     




     

    Here is the last 3 seasons of OPSa......

    2013
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia--.731
    David Ross--------------.683

    2012
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia--.779
    Kelly Shoppach---------.688

    2011
    Jarrod Saltalamacchia--.746
    Jason Varitek-----------.662

     

    Combined, those are huge advantages. About a .85 OPS advantage the last 2.2 seasons. Thats like having our pitchers have to face a SS every single at bat when the backups caught[Tek-Shop-Ross] and our pitchers having to face a corner OF every single at bat for the last 2.2 seasons when Salty caught. Its actually worse then that since that difference is only .70 OPS between an average SS and average corner OF.

    Let me add that those numbers don't even take into account PB's, WP's, or the entire running game. Which is why I still prefer CERA. But OPSa is useful and its Salt in the wound for Salty.

     

     




    I think kids like Lav, Vasquez and Swihart may have a more promising future than Fed, Wagner, Exposito and Kottaras but they need the chance to prove it.  One at a time starting with Lav by giving him more playing time at the big league level.  If we don't feel Lav is the guy then at least trade for an experienced guy like McCann.

    I doubt we miss Salty behind the plate, especially if we can trade for one more reliable bat.  If Lav doesn't cut it as a catcher "who knows" by that time his offense may finally be dialed in enough to take over for Papi while Vasquez gets his shot.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    As compared to catcher prospects in our past, Lava/Vazquez/Swihart vs who? Kotaras? Butler? Federwiecz (sp?)

     

     



    I will definitely agree that our catching prospects are currently better then any catching prospects I can remember in the sox system, in particular Vazquez who seems to be a better all around option.

     

    Couple that with the fact that our ML catchers are better this year than 2012 or 2011, and we are clearly improving at nearly all levels. Of course, we could do better, but catching is not even a top 3 priority right now.

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:

    Yeah a rookie is supposed to come right up and throw a no no.

    There is nothing worst than Yankee fans other than Red Sox fans when it comes to developing young pitching.

    I remember defending Clay Buchholz on this very site when he first came up.

    Many Sox fans wanted him gone. Wasn't that long ago.

     

     




    I agree. The kid has had a couple games over the AA level. I truly cant wait to see him in the rotation, but that doesnt mean right now. Hes going to be good, just needs more seasoning. Too many are quick to rush a kid to MLB, only to be shocked when his performance is less than stellar.

    FWIW, I was very happy they didnt trade Clay for Salty a few years ago when a lot of posters onthis board was itching for them too.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    moon,

     

    I think the final comment I can make on Saltys is this.  We have some pretty good pitching overall, if we had another veteran catcher with good game calling savy to go along with Ross I think it could make a world of difference moving forward.  Our current catching situation no matter how many stats you look is basically not much different than when we had Salty and Tek.  We all know that wasn't great unless you want to use OPS to cover all the other weaknesses.

    No improvement to the club at the catching position, just the status quo after many years of trying.  With that said we also need another big bat and I don't feel Ells is cutting it as a leadoff batter so its certainly not our only concern.

     

    Fair enough. Look, I I have not said our catching position is an overall strength for a long time (even with VMart). I actually feel better about our current catcher situation now than last year or 2011, or 2010. The future is brighter with Vazquez, Lavarnway and Swihart and hoping one makes it big. I think Ross is better than Shoppach and VTek during his last year or two, and Salty now is better than Salty in 2011 and 2012. 

    Our biggest weaknesses are still:

    1) A third solid SP (Dempster may fill that role over time, but it wouldn't hurt with him as the #4, and with our #5 in serious trouble, upgrading the rotation has been #1 on my wish list for many many years.)

    2) A solid 3/4 slot hitter to bat behind Papi, so Napoli can be the #5 hitter and Pedey back to #2 without shortening the line-up.

    I get your concern about Ellsbury at leadoff, but I'm not sure that Victorino and Gomes vs LHPs and Nava vs RHPs wouldn't do a better than average job at leadoff. I'd bet they combine for a .385+ OBP combined as platoons.

     



    I agree on all points moon including the fact we don't have anyone on this club that is a true leadoff hitter.  Maybe a big trade while we are in the middle of the race just may keep us there and much better off moving forward.

     

     

     




    Thats what the first 3 months of the season are for. To evaluate and make the necessary additions and moves for the last 2-3 months of the season.

    Im sure we will see some moves by or at the deadline.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     



    Sorry, but Vasquez will have long passed Lav by then. Im telling you, this kid is going to be very good. Keep Salty this year and if were out of it in July, trade him. If not, go with Salty/Ross combo and let Lav and Vasquez fight it out next year. I bet you will like Vasquez' catching skills much much better tha, Lavarnways and his bat isnt bad either. Vaquez reminds me so much of yadier Molina in a lot of ways.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    as long as a pitcher is able to move his head in a left-right-left-right direction the fault can NEVER be with the catcher.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     

     



    Sorry, but Vasquez will have long passed Lav by then. Im telling you, this kid is going to be very good. Keep Salty this year and if were out of it in July, trade him. If not, go with Salty/Ross combo and let Lav and Vasquez fight it out next year. I bet you will like Vasquez' catching skills much much better tha, Lavarnways and his bat isnt bad either. Vaquez reminds me so much of yadier Molina in a lot of ways.

     

     



    You are talking about a kid in the very low level of the minors in Vasquez, anything can happen between now and the time he hits the majors to change how some feel, it happens all the time.   Salty's BA is 253 with a 330 obp I say package him now when his stock is best, then bring up Lav or trade for McCann or another vet. to help Ross.

     

    I would bet my paycheck our lineup doesn't do any worse without Salty if Lav replaces him, while our lineup and staff would probably be much better with McCann and Ross. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     

     



    Sorry, but Vasquez will have long passed Lav by then. Im telling you, this kid is going to be very good. Keep Salty this year and if were out of it in July, trade him. If not, go with Salty/Ross combo and let Lav and Vasquez fight it out next year. I bet you will like Vasquez' catching skills much much better tha, Lavarnways and his bat isnt bad either. Vaquez reminds me so much of yadier Molina in a lot of ways.

     

     



    You are talking about a kid in the very low level of the minors in Vasquez, anything can happen between now and the time he hits the majors to change how some feel.  It happens all the time.   Salty's BA is 253 with a 330 obp I say package him now when his stock is best, then bring up Lav or trade for McCann or another vet. to help Ross.

     

    I would bet my paycheck our lineup doesn't do any worse without Salty if Lav replaces him, while our lineup and staff would probably be much better with McCann and Ross. 

     




    No, Vasquez is doing very well in AA, which is hardly the very low levels of the minors, and his defense is pretty much MLB ready. Hes not far off at all. With his skill on defense and the ability to hit AA pitching is very encouraging. He could start possibly next year craze. Thats what some within baseball are saying. The same ones that are pretty sure when they see Lavarnway as a BU catcher/DH type.

     

    McCann?? You want a catcher that just got back off the DL for shoulder issuses and making 12M? You think Salty is bad at throwing runners out? They will run all day off McCann. He still needs to get his timing back and was more known as an offensive catcher anyway if I remember. Sorry, pass. I think your totally wrong on both Vasquez and McCann.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     

     



    Sorry, but Vasquez will have long passed Lav by then. Im telling you, this kid is going to be very good. Keep Salty this year and if were out of it in July, trade him. If not, go with Salty/Ross combo and let Lav and Vasquez fight it out next year. I bet you will like Vasquez' catching skills much much better tha, Lavarnways and his bat isnt bad either. Vaquez reminds me so much of yadier Molina in a lot of ways.

     

     



    You are talking about a kid in the very low level of the minors in Vasquez, anything can happen between now and the time he hits the majors to change how some feel, it happens all the time.   Salty's BA is 253 with a 330 obp I say package him now when his stock is best, then bring up Lav or trade for McCann or another vet. to help Ross.

     

    I would bet my paycheck our lineup doesn't do any worse without Salty if Lav replaces him, while our lineup and staff would probably be much better with McCann and Ross. 




    Why would we want to get McCann (and give up what it would take to get him) when we have three good catching prospects already in our system? Thats not smart management.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    as long as a pitcher is able to move his head in a left-right-left-right direction the fault can NEVER be with the catcher.

    It might be nice if it was that simple, but it's not.  The catcher isn't just there to catch the ball.  

    The catcher can do a lot of things to help the pitcher be more effective and let the pitcher focus on executing the pitches.  Especially a kid like Webster in his second big league start.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     

     



    Sorry, but Vasquez will have long passed Lav by then. Im telling you, this kid is going to be very good. Keep Salty this year and if were out of it in July, trade him. If not, go with Salty/Ross combo and let Lav and Vasquez fight it out next year. I bet you will like Vasquez' catching skills much much better tha, Lavarnways and his bat isnt bad either. Vaquez reminds me so much of yadier Molina in a lot of ways.

     

     



    You are talking about a kid in the very low level of the minors in Vasquez, anything can happen between now and the time he hits the majors to change how some feel, it happens all the time.   Salty's BA is 253 with a 330 obp I say package him now when his stock is best, then bring up Lav or trade for McCann or another vet. to help Ross.

     

    I would bet my paycheck our lineup doesn't do any worse without Salty if Lav replaces him, while our lineup and staff would probably be much better with McCann and Ross. 

     




    Why would we want to get McCann (and give up what it would take to get him) when we have three good catching prospects already in our system? Thats not smart management.

     

     



    #1 McCann had a torn labrum which is a minor surgery and hes fine.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9244174/brian-mccann-atlanta-braves-set-come-dl-monday

    Let me educate a little further,

    #2 Offensively, McCann is only 29 with a career 351 OBP, 825 OPS and great SO to BB ratio.  This alone Salty will never have, my bet is he comes back strong.

    #3 Defensively, Brian is better period.  His arm is more accurate and he has better common sense/natural leadership ability.

    #4 His contract would be pro rated

    #5 He is a FA at the end of the year

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    Answering the OP is easy.  There is no way in the world a change of catchers can make that big a difference.  No way.  Let's not forget, for example, the bench is calling the pitches.  I think last night was a combination of things--control issues, umpire squeezing the strike zone, not a very good mix of pitches, a changeup that was too hittable, etc.  On another thread I even asked whether Webster was tipping his pitches.  Why?  Because almost everyone in the Twins lineup was hitting him hard.  Even on fly outs, they hit the ball hard. 

    I think Salty could have contributed to the bad night for Webster (and Doubront), but I have also seen him catch good games, so I give him a pass.  Not his hair, of course, just his catching.  Also, no pass on his hitting. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Here's another debate for everyone

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

     

    Their is a lot more to catching then CS. I didnt mean oppenents OBP or BA i meant his, as i said in almost all other ways salty is a better catcher besides CS. here is sox prospects break down on lavernways catching skills.

     

    "Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level."

    Salty is much better at framing pitchs and blocking balls, the only area in which lav excells at catcher is caught stealing, thats not enough for me to trade salty right now and hope that lav figures the rest out in the bigs.

     



    Give Lav the three years Salty has with Tek and Ross then maybe there would be a comparison.  Its not so much where Lav is just yet because we still have Ross.  Its more about what Salty doesn't have after getting a golden opportunity to work with a couple very intelligent veteran catchers.

     

     



    Sorry, but Vasquez will have long passed Lav by then. Im telling you, this kid is going to be very good. Keep Salty this year and if were out of it in July, trade him. If not, go with Salty/Ross combo and let Lav and Vasquez fight it out next year. I bet you will like Vasquez' catching skills much much better tha, Lavarnways and his bat isnt bad either. Vaquez reminds me so much of yadier Molina in a lot of ways.

     

     



    You are talking about a kid in the very low level of the minors in Vasquez, anything can happen between now and the time he hits the majors to change how some feel, it happens all the time.   Salty's BA is 253 with a 330 obp I say package him now when his stock is best, then bring up Lav or trade for McCann or another vet. to help Ross.

     

    I would bet my paycheck our lineup doesn't do any worse without Salty if Lav replaces him, while our lineup and staff would probably be much better with McCann and Ross. 

     




    Why would we want to get McCann (and give up what it would take to get him) when we have three good catching prospects already in our system? Thats not smart management.

     

     



    #1 McCann had a torn labrum which is a minor surgery and hes fine.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9244174/brian-mccann-atlanta-braves-set-come-dl-monday

    Let me educate a little further,

    #2 Offensively, McCann is only 29 with a career 351 OBP, 825 OPS and great SO to BB ratio.  This alone Salty will never have, my bet is he comes back strong.

    #3 Defensively, Brian is better period.  His arm is more accurate and he has better common sense/natural leadership ability.

    #4 His contract would be pro rated

    #5 He is a FA at the end of the year

     

     



    Tearing your labrum the way McCann did was indeed serious. It will take time to get back to his stellar 24% CS rate compared to saltys career 23%. The stat you always refer to. McCann has more PB and Salty caught Wake. Take away Wakes PB's and salty is obviously better at blocking balls. McCann is scary close to Saltys defensive stats, which you complain about all the time.

    And do you understand what the Braves would want for such a good catcher and let the sox pay his 10M, prorated, contract less than 2 months into the season? Yes, Please educate me.

    If salty is gone, Lavarnway would be a much better choice just on the financial aspect and the CS%. I dont suppose his defense is any worse either.

    Maybe Im wrong, but this looks more about you not liking Salty and wanting him gone than making the right move. You like offensive catchers, which is where McCann is better than Salty, which is what you prefer.

     
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