Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from HOFFBURGER. Show HOFFBURGER's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    are you sure it's orel hershiser that was mentioned as a possibilty? i heard that bobby v reached out to david cone about the pitching coach vacancy, but hadnt heard anything about hershiser yet..reason i ask is because i thought hershiser was part of one of the groups attempting to buy the dodgers, and that would probably prevent him from taking a job with a dfferent ballclub. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    I've alluded to it before but how many aging players do we want to take a chance on signing going forward? How has that worked out for us historically. What if we had extended Manny? Ortiz declined badly for 2 years and then all the sudden has a much better year at a more advanced age. The bottom line is Ortiz is hard to project. We just don't know what he is going to give us going forward. I hope to God he doesn't accept arb. I'll take the 2 picks for sure. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    What he will give us is a one dimensional player who's best assetts (rbi and home-run) are gradually declining, and are far lower than the legend some still promote.  He failed at a leaderhip role this past year. AGon will not play the OF in inter-league games thus for the first year ever Ortiz literally sat every game, even though he was having a good month going in.  

    We do not need a 27 homer 85 ribbie Ortiz, if we can find a 22 homer, 80 ribbie player who can catch the ball, run, and have a great attitude then it is worth the opportunity to let DO walk.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    No team is about to give a guy   who just turned   36    4  years  ..
    It's unlikely  Baltimore or Toronto  will go   12+  and  3 years....

    Papi also needs a line up around him  Oriole's have that  not so sure about the Jays.. Rays made a play  for Manny and that was what they lacked  was the 1 big power bat,, maybe they'll go 15 million for a year    but that's like  25% of their salary  money..

    In the end I still think he takes  2 years  with team option (buy out) for year 3 and  28-39 million   ---   JD Drew money for better numbers
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    Absoultely a year of Ortiz in Tampa would help Longoria... but years 2 and 3 and 4 will hamper any and every team that goes that far in its offer. 2 years should be the maximum anyone gives him.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    are you sure it's orel hershiser that was mentioned as a possibilty? i heard that bobby v reached out to david cone about the pitching coach vacancy, but hadnt heard anything about hershiser yet..reason i ask is because i thought hershiser was part of one of the groups attempting to buy the dodgers, and that would probably prevent him from taking a job with a dfferent ballclub. 
    Posted by HOFFBURGER


    Yeah, it was Hersh. Comcast reported it. I'm sure he's looking at other guys too, and yeah, I heard that about the Dodgers too. We'll see how it pans put and what Hershiser does.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from crmn19. Show crmn19's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    What does the forum think of Hershiser as a pitching coach? Comcast NE just reported that V may be looking in H's direction. I think it's an interesting idea, worth at least a good look. Also, Papi's comment that "I want to finish my career as a Red Sox, but it's no longer on me" is confusing. The Red Sox just offered him a deal, how is it that it's not on him to take it?  
    Posted by TheExaminer


    Hershiser is part of a group w/Steve Garvey trying to buy the Dodgers; on top of that, given his quality work with ESPN, would he want to leave that for the grind of simply coaching?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    What he will give us is a one dimensional player who's best assetts (rbi and home-run) are gradually declining, and are far lower than the legend some still promote.  He failed at a leaderhip role this past year. AGon will not play the OF in inter-league games thus for the first year ever Ortiz literally sat every game, even though he was having a good month going in.   We do not need a 27 homer 85 ribbie Ortiz, if we can find a 22 homer, 80 ribbie player who can catch the ball, run, and have a great attitude then it is worth the opportunity to let DO walk.
    Posted by BurritoT


    He's not declining all that much.  He was 4th in the league in OPS, virtually tied with Gonzo.  It is really the risk of decline that's a worry, the flexibility, and the 2 picks we'd get that make me hope he declines.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    guys papi wants someone to feed his gigantic head (to get bigger). i dont think it fits in the concept of team. i would prefer the attitudes that will contribute to an all for one and one for all ethic . Then you agree Ellsbury should be traded after windfall career year in front of Pedroia and Agon.
    Posted by hankwilliams


    You must be an interesting conversationalist.

    How do you feel about Hersh?  'Trade Ellsbury'
    How do you feel about Papi?  "Trade Ellsbury'
    Wow, nice day out!  'Trade Hersh'

    Just for fun, why not just stick to the subject?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts.... : He's not declining all that much.  He was 4th in the league in OPS, virtually tied with Gonzo.  It is really the risk of decline that's a worry, the flexibility, and the 2 picks we'd get that make me hope he declines.
    Posted by Joebreidey

    Good points, Joe. I'm thinking back to former stars that played well into their late 30s and even into their 40s. What age did Ted hit .388? How were Yaz's last 2-3 years?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    Sometimes the market exists for things you wouldn't expect. See Carl Crawford and John Lackey.

    A market is not based upon what a deal ends up for. There was almost surely no 142M market for Crawford. If you pay 10,000 for a $240 rangefinder on Ebay, bidding against yourself past $240, that is not the market. Inepstein was a regular dim bulb who bid aginst himself for players who did not fit. Angels most certainly had zero interest after Inepstein's immediate 142M offer sheet. Crawford did not want to play in white low economic class descendants chip baseball market town, and who can blame him.

    BTW, Moonslob was consistent on Adam Dunn and over 30 million. He has been all over the map on Ortiz, dating back to when he said to release him because he can't hit LP.

    My Ortiz offer has remained the same, and reflects an earned retirment overpay that war earned over last 2 years and total tenure in Boston. Moonslob has been all over the place on Ortiz, which is due to dementia and a deep seated latent disdain for Ortiz. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from LeftyGrove. Show LeftyGrove's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    Hershiser was an intelligent, winning pitcher in his day. His analysis in the booth is always factual and well thought out.  He would add another level of intelligence on the staff for Bobby V. Hershiser and Bobby V. would certainly combine to "steal" a few more wins with their approach to in-game leadership.
    As for Papi, it is all about the market.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    Angels most certainly had zero interest after Inepstein's 142M offer sheet.

    You're bright enough, but you think linearly.

    Since your statement is unproveable, you need to review whatever data is available.

    In this case, look to the motivations.  If this were the NYY, you'd ask, what motivation would they have to sign CC?  None, since they had Gardner.

    So we look to the Angels.

    1-Were they looking for an OFer?
    2-Would they ante up $20M per?

    Once you resolve those two questions, then you can draw a better conclusion.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from WesternOregon. Show WesternOregon's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    Is this thread about signing David Ortiz or bring Oral Hershiser on board as pitching coach?

    I'm a one thing at a time person for threads.

    I'm thinking that Hershiser (as a believer - and only those who believe will understand my meaning here) may look at the Red Sox as akin to Moses parting the waters. He will need divine direction to actually step on the field. Beckett and Lester are both ego-centric projects and Buchholz is a punk who'd be stealing hubcaps if not for MLB. That's the "BIG-3" everyone touts as the future to build around. I'd wager that Valentine merely has spoken with Orel because he worked with him at MLB-TV. Orel is not ready to be a believer living and working in Boston methinks. Then again 2004 indicates that a higher power was interested in the Sox so despite the presence of too many Puritans, 'chosen people' and secular pink hats amongst "Red Sox Nation" he may see the ministry calling.

    As for Papi? I trust that whatever Bobby Valentine wants will work.
     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts.... : But yeah, that's what I mean. It's up to him to accept it, so how is it not on him? That males me think he's going to reject arbitration and test the market.
    Posted by TheExaminer


    No player that had the year Papi had, DH or not, lets some outside arbiter dictate what his salary should be. The RS acted cowardly by doing this. They don't deserve him and wouldn't have won two championships without him.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    So we look to the Angels.

    1-Were they looking for an OFer?
    2-Would they ante up $20M per?          



    Joe, your personal animosty impairs your ability to be honest. You missed the most important factor in any offer, total years and total amount!


    1. Would the Angels pay an OF'er who turned 30, 20M a year for 7 years and a total of 142M? No!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    So we look to the Angels. 1-Were they looking for an OFer? 2-Would they ante up $20M per?           Joe, your personal animosty impairs your ability to be honest. You missed the most important factor in any offer, total years and total amount! 1. Would the Angels pay an OF'er who turned 30, 20M a year for 7 years and a total of 142M? No!
    Posted by hankwilliams


    That's why I asked you the question.

    They traded a decent player to obtain a 32 y.o. OF that made $21M for 4 years.

    If they were willing to pay Wells $21M per, and give up Napoli, surely they would entertain paying $20M to CC.  Neither of us can say for certainty, but they certainly had an interest in an OFer, and certainly were willing to pay $20M+ per season.  These last two factors are beyond dispute.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts.... : No player that had the year Papi had, DH or not, lets some outside arbiter dictate what his salary should be. The RS acted cowardly by doing this. They don't deserve him and wouldn't have won two championships without him.
    Posted by Alibiike



    Offering arbitration to a player is cowardly?  Not for nothing, but that's insane.  Every team in BB has offered arbitration to its players.  Are all of the cowardly.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    The most important factor is beyond dispute. They were not willing to pay an OF'er 20M for 7 years and a total of 142M , instead, opting to cut that obligation in half and trade for Wells. Napoli was traded because he was about to reach FA status and Angels had no plans to pay Napoli FA money to DH and catch and pay first.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    Sometimes the market exists for things you wouldn't expect. See Carl Crawford and John Lackey. A market is not based upon what a deal ends up for. There was almost surely no 142M market for Crawford. If you pay 10,000 for a $240 rangefinder on Ebay, bidding against yourself past $240, that is not the market. Inepstein was a regular dim bulb who bid aginst himself for players who did not fit. Angels most certainly had zero interest after Inepstein's immediate 142M offer sheet. Crawford did not want to play in white low economic class descendants chip baseball market town, and who can blame him. BTW, Moonslob was consistent on Adam Dunn and over 30 million. He has been all over the map on Ortiz, dating back to when he said to release him because he can't hit LP. My Ortiz offer has remained the same, and reflects an earned retirment overpay that war earned over last 2 years and total tenure in Boston. Moonslob has been all over the place on Ortiz, which is due to dementia and a deep seated latent disdain for Ortiz. 
    Posted by hankwilliams


    Wrong. The market is the final buying price. A market can't be known until the buyers submit their offers and pay the price. There is no "ideal" market. A market is based on what sells and for what price it sells at any particular time. It is not predictable and has no internal logic, much as what you would like to claim it has. The market for Red Sox tickets is such that fans will pay a premium for tickets from secondary sources. No such market exists for Tampa Rays tickets. The final selling price is what the market is, by definition. Markets are not based on what you or I think is fair and reasonable. Booms and busts happen all of the time due to market fluctuations. If one team thinks Ortiz is worth a 3 year risk, the market does exist. We won't know until the deal is done. The market always includes some buyers who will overpay.

    As for the rest of your crap, well, it's crap.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....:
    In Response to Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts.... : But yeah, that's what I mean. It's up to him to accept it, so how is it not on him? That males me think he's going to reject arbitration and test the market.
    Posted by TheExaminer


    They offered him arbitration, a one year deal, that doesn't translate to finishing his career here.  Listening to everything that is said during these type of negotiations is pointless, both sides are just posturing.

    If the Red Sox offer him 2 years with a team option for a 3rd + buy out, Papi would be wise to accept.

    Orel seems like a good candidate.  The Red Sox clearly think highly of ESPN as a farm system for the coaching staff.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    The market always includes some buyers who will overpay.

    Your most stupid comment. Overpay is not possible if it is the market. When someone bids against themselves, that is not a market. 

    As for the rest of your crap, well, it's crap.

    Devildrivel, you and your big chip is a pile.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    The nice thing about smart guys who spend a couple of years analyzing for TV (Valentine, Kruk, Hershiser, et al) is that they get to see almost every player.  It is like they have been scouts for all those years they've been broadcasting and analyzing games.  In that sense, Hershiser would be a good candidate.  As for his interest, or his ability at actually coaching?  Who knows.

    As for Papi?  He wants the security of a mult-year deal because with HGH testing due to start, his numbers are going to tank, yet again.  If I were in Ben/Larry's shoes I would offer a 2 year, incentive laden deal with a 3rd year option, much as moon has suggested.  Otherwise, they have an arbitration offer on the table.  It is entirely in Ortiz's hands, whether he returns to the Sox.  As for finishing his career in Boston, that depends on when he retires, how he performs at age 37 and beyond, and what the team needs are beyond 2012.  I just don't see the Sox needing Ortiz beyond 2012 as much as he needs them!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from WesternOregon. Show WesternOregon's posts

    Re: Hershiser and Papi thoughts....

    I'd be surprised to see Orel leave his home in Nevada and eschew his career as a poker player.
     
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