Zac and Bob, fair enough about the 300 win pitcher, though for me, Wins for a pitcher is still a pretty worthless stat.  If I'm going to assess the talent or value of a pitcher, Wins is the last stat I'm going to look at.

I realize that all stats have their flaws, but they at least will give me some information about the pitcher's performance.  I agree Saves is a deeply flawed stat (don't even get me started on Holds), but even that tells me more than Wins does. 

I'm talkin bout kids getting trophies for just showing up ;-) 

Touche' Zac

"Just because the new stats give more refined information is no reason to throw away the old stats. A lot of people like them and think they're fun and think they mean something. I don't see a problem. "

That's the problem Bob.  Everyone knows the main goal of the new stats is to take all the fun and enjoyment out of baseball for the old schoolers.  ;-)

In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

Bob!!!

I did a little research, thinking the stat geeks have to have done this already, and lo and behold, they have!

The stat is called Support Neutral Wins (SNW), which is a pitcher's expected number of wins based on league average run support.

It's still not perfect, but better than Wins. I've been beside myself with excitement all morning. :-) It's interesting to do a quick comparison of Wins versus SNW for each pitcher.

For instance, Cliff Lee had an ERA of 3.16, a K/BB of 207/28, and pitched 211 innings and only got 6 wins. In 5 games, he gave up 0 or 1 run and didn't get a win in any of those games. His actual # wins was 6. His expected # of wins was 14.4.

It also tells us that the Yankees pitchers weren't as good as their W-L records. ;-)  They were helped out by their offense.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1091258

In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

Bob!!!

I did a little research, thinking the stat geeks have to have done this already, and lo and behold, they have!

The stat is called Support Neutral Wins (SNW), which is a pitcher's expected number of wins based on league average run support.

It's still not perfect, but better than Wins. I've been beside myself with excitement all morning. :-) It's interesting to do a quick comparison of Wins versus SNW for each pitcher.

For instance, Cliff Lee had an ERA of 3.16, a K/BB of 207/28, and pitched 211 innings and only got 6 wins. In 5 games, he gave up 0 or 1 run and didn't get a win in any of those games. His actual # wins was 6. His expected # of wins was 14.4.

It also tells us that the Yankees pitchers weren't as good as their W-L records. ;-)  They were helped out by their offense.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1091258

thanks 4 the read mef

while the writer clearly supports your  point

he also in a very small way  supported my point

when I charged you with  going 2 far

 at least he admitted  '' Like almost any flawed statistic,

 win-loss records can be vaguely useful at the margins''


I have only a little problem  with us disagreeing on how much value  the stat has

but have more of a  problem with anyone calling it totally useless

no worries i'll get over it ;-)

FWIW worth I usually look in this order

1) whip
2) K/BB   
3) W & W %
4) inns
5) K/9 BB/9

this could explain my shortcomings in FB ;-)


mef I'm thinking  we could throw any stat out there and then

we could  find flaws with it

many with the  same  ''team stat '' flaw

In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

1) whip
2) K/BB   
3) W & W %

Wow Zac, we're making progress.  It was not so long ago that you ranked "Wins" #2.

And it only took us four years to get to this point, but we both know how slow you are.  ;-)

How about something as simple as the SP's game-by-game ERA v the league RPG.  The NL scored 4.22.  Lee allowed less than 4.22 in 19 games, so he has a theoretical W/L of 19-11, which is exactly what I'd expect with his ERA.

But it still way short of variance.  Once a team has a 5-0 lead, most pitchers probably refuse to walk a guy, meaning that they are going to give the hitter more to hit.  There are going to be way too many factors to predict hypothetical W/L.

Amazing how these things evolve.  I spent 2-3 arguing with Pumpsie in Sept '11, that we'd be favored over the NYY in the playoffs because our top-3 was better than their top three, assuming Buchholz would be back.  He insisted on comparing total team ERA.  Now I find out, 1.5 years later, that he is a fan of the top-3 philosophy.

The stat is called Support Neutral Wins (SNW), which is a pitcher's expected number of wins based on league average run support.

my gawd!!  redsox kimmi U R amazing

if I had a favorite stat geek

there could be no other  but

as far as I'm concern U R all mean people

just trying to ruin BB debates for those of us

who actually wach the games ;-)