Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 7:48 AM EDT

    What more can you say? The starting pitching on this team is worse than any team in baseball including the Cubs, Royals, Mets, etc.  What can you expect when your average start is less than 5 IP.

    You can thank Theo for giving you this roster, Francona for making the decision to not start Aceves and guys like Lackey that are just overplayed blow hards.
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 7:56 AM EDT

    You're right. But obviously injuries have something to do with it.  Yet your point is valid that Aceves has needed to be starting for months and trading for a guy who was already injured (Bedard) was not that bright.
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 8:55 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses:
    You're right. But obviously injuries have something to do with it.  Yet your point is valid that Aceves has needed to be starting for months and trading for a guy who was already injured (Bedard) was not that bright.
    Posted by snakeoil123


    Agree that we had too many injuries to pitchers this season.  I don't believe that we had many other options besides Bedard.  I still thought that Theo should have acquired another pitcher once Dice-K was injured.   Not sure if anyone else was available or if the other team's demands were too high. 
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 9:04 AM EDT

    In Response to Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses:
    What more can you say? The starting pitching on this team is worse than any team in baseball including the Cubs, Royals, Mets, etc.  What can you expect when your average start is less than 5 IP. You can thank Theo for giving you this roster, Francona for making the decision to not start Aceves and guys like Lackey that are just overplayed blow hards.
    Posted by ADG


    You really can't it's a fact our starting pitching and weak pen has put us in a position to miss the PS.  I don't blame the offense as much, if I came to bat and put my team ahead just to see the starter or pen give the runs right back, I would be very frustrated.
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 9:15 AM EDT

    THE DECISION TO PUT WAKEFIELD IN THE STARTING ROTATION
    AS A 44YR. OLD WAS A POOR ONE. HE FADED ONCE THE DOG
    DAYS OF AUGUST ARRIVED AND THE SYMPATHETIC MGR.
    STARTED HIM CONTINUALLY EVEN THOUGH ANY ONE COULD
    SEE THAT HE WAS A LIABILITY AND GAVE UP A TON OF RUNS
    EARLY. HE COULD NOT BE USED IN THE PEN BECAUSE OF THE
    KNUCKLER, AND THE THREAT OF PASSED BALLS AND WP's.
    THE GM AND MANAGER MUST TAKE THE HEAT FOR THIS. THE
    JENKS SIGNING AND LACKEY SIGNING WERE TERRIBLE...BOTH
    THESE GUYS HAD THEIR BEST DAYS BEHIND THEM. NOW, THE
    ORGANIZATION IS HAMPERED BY BIG CONTRACTS AND AGE.
    ORTIZ, SCUTARO, YOUKILIS ARE OVER 30 AND PRONE TO
    INJURY. ONLY PEDEY, ELLS, AND AGON CAN BE CONSIDERED
    THE CORE OF THE TEAM. WE NEED ANOTHER CATCHER.
    SALTY IS OK, BUT HE HAS A LONG SWING AND CANNOT
    CATCH UP TO THE REAL HEAT. WE HAVE TO DEVELOP SOME
    GOOD ROOKIE TALENT OR ELSE WE WILL EAT THE YANKEE'S
    DUST FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE. CRAWFORD IS A
    BEATEN UP PLAYER FROM HIS YEARS ON THE TURF, AND HE
    IS GETTING OLDER AND HIS SPEED WILL DIMINISH, LEAVING
    US WITH A "DREW-TYPE" CONTRACT. ANOTHER ALBATROSS
    AROUND OUR NECK BY EPSTEIN , WHO SHOULD BE FIRED
    SUMMARILY ALONG WITH FRANCONA ON OCTOBER 1 !!!!
     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 11:16 AM EDT

    How easy is it to play the blame game here...

    First off, the starting rotation at the beginning of the season was supposed to be one of the best in baseball:
    • Lester - has not been the stud pitcher he was expected to be this year.
    • Beckett - has been their best starter and the only consistent guy they've got right now.
    • Buchholz - Down with Injury, eventually replaced by Bedard (who was healthy when the Sox acquired him...i.e. was back in the Seattle rotation.
    • Lackey - A trainwreck both this season and last...can it be that his consistent poor performances are taking down the entire rotation?
    • DiceK - replaced by Wakefield - UGH (nufced) or even Miller - who just can't seem to find the plate consistently.
    Now you second-guessers have anointed Aceves as the savior to the rotation when the reality is that without him in the bullpen things would actually be worse than they are now. Talk about overusing the bullpen if Aceves wasn't there to eat the innings he has.

    In summary, this is not Theo or Tito's fault, it is these players who are significantly underacheiving to their expectations. Wasn't Lackey a #1 starter with the Angels?? What happened to him??

    In a perfect world, the rotation right now should be:
    • Beckett
    • Lester
    • Buccholz
    • Bedard
    • Lackey
    But hey, injuries happen so what can you do...

    Lastly, would Harden be much better a solution if he was brought in here...did I read he is 0-5 since the trade didn't happen?
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 11:36 AM EDT

     I've always been a Theo supporter, but am coming to believe that a change is needed.IMO this fiasco is on the GM. He was slow to respond to obvious weaknesses i.e  bull-pen, RF, SP and when he did , went on the cheap. Morales, Jackson, Aviles, or minor league call-ups just don't cut it for an orginization that is supposedly going for it all.
     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 11:55 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses:
     I've always been a Theo supporter, but am coming to believe that a change is needed.IMO this fiasco is on the GM. He was slow to respond to obvious weaknesses i.e  bull-pen, RF, SP and when he did , went on the cheap. Morales, Jackson, Aviles, or minor league call-ups just don't cut it for an orginization that is supposedly going for it all.
    Posted by attic-dan


    On the cheap?? Please explain what 'more expensive' players were available and what you would have been willing to sacrifice in the farm to acquire them??

    It's easy to say that Theo was only doing his job if he acquired Verlander for the rotation and Valerde for the 'pen.

    BTW, Aviles has done a decent job filling in for Youkilis during his injury...but if you expected him to be Youkilis...I guess that makes him a cheap alternative, right? Yep, Theo should have just acquired David Wright from the Mets when Youk started hurting.

    There was one player the Sox could have targeted...that was Hunter Pence...but I don't think they had the players in the farm to match up to what Philly offered for him...but Theo failed right?



     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SFBostonFan. Show SFBostonFan's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 12:46 PM EDT

    I mean just a few hours before he pitched yesterday...at least he could say he had an excuse for not being fully focused !!!


    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Red-Sox-pitcher-Erik-Bedard-served-child-support-papers-by-Yankees-fan-092011
     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 12:52 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses:
    How easy is it to play the blame game here... First off, the starting rotation at the beginning of the season was supposed to be one of the best in baseball: Lester - has not been the stud pitcher he was expected to be this year. Beckett - has been their best starter and the only consistent guy they've got right now. Buchholz - Down with Injury, eventually replaced by Bedard (who was healthy when the Sox acquired him...i.e. was back in the Seattle rotation. Lackey - A trainwreck both this season and last...can it be that his consistent poor performances are taking down the entire rotation? DiceK - replaced by Wakefield - UGH (nufced) or even Miller - who just can't seem to find the plate consistently. Now you second-guessers have anointed Aceves as the savior to the rotation when the reality is that without him in the bullpen things would actually be worse than they are now. Talk about overusing the bullpen if Aceves wasn't there to eat the innings he has. In summary, this is not Theo or Tito's fault, it is these players who are significantly underacheiving to their expectations. Wasn't Lackey a #1 starter with the Angels?? What happened to him?? In a perfect world, the rotation right now should be: Beckett Lester Buccholz Bedard Lackey But hey, injuries happen so what can you do... Lastly, would Harden be much better a solution if he was brought in here...did I read he is 0-5 since the trade didn't happen?
    Posted by Soxdog67


    Soxdog - Nobody said Aceves was the savior. However, come September 5, he probably should have been put into the rotation. Even Francona considered it. Since September 5, Aceves has given up 2 ER in 14 2/3 IP in 6 games, yet the Sox records in those games is 2-4. Would he not have been better suited to start once you knew that Wakefield, Miller, Weiland and Lackey were 4/5ths of your rotation?
     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 12:57 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses:
    How easy is it to play the blame game here... First off, the starting rotation at the beginning of the season was supposed to be one of the best in baseball: Lester - has not been the stud pitcher he was expected to be this year. Beckett - has been their best starter and the only consistent guy they've got right now. Buchholz - Down with Injury, eventually replaced by Bedard (who was healthy when the Sox acquired him...i.e. was back in the Seattle rotation. Lackey - A trainwreck both this season and last...can it be that his consistent poor performances are taking down the entire rotation? DiceK - replaced by Wakefield - UGH (nufced) or even Miller - who just can't seem to find the plate consistently. Now you second-guessers have anointed Aceves as the savior to the rotation when the reality is that without him in the bullpen things would actually be worse than they are now. Talk about overusing the bullpen if Aceves wasn't there to eat the innings he has. In summary, this is not Theo or Tito's fault, it is these players who are significantly underacheiving to their expectations. Wasn't Lackey a #1 starter with the Angels?? What happened to him?? In a perfect world, the rotation right now should be: Beckett Lester Buccholz Bedard Lackey But hey, injuries happen so what can you do... Lastly, would Harden be much better a solution if he was brought in here...did I read he is 0-5 since the trade didn't happen?
    Posted by Soxdog67


    Excellent post but I don't think that ADG read the part where Aceves is needed in the bullpen.
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 1:04 PM EDT

    I have a good , reliable car and a junk car.  I always drive the junk car because the good car is needed in my garage , for when the junk car breaks down every other day.  Logic 101.
     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 1:34 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses:
    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses : On the cheap?? Please explain what 'more expensive' players were available and what you would have been willing to sacrifice in the farm to acquire them?? It's easy to say that Theo was only doing his job if he acquired Verlander for the rotation and Valerde for the 'pen. BTW, Aviles has done a decent job filling in for Youkilis during his injury...but if you expected him to be Youkilis...I guess that makes him a cheap alternative, right? Yep, Theo should have just acquired David Wright from the Mets when Youk started hurting. There was one player the Sox could have targeted...that was Hunter Pence...but I don't think they had the players in the farm to match up to what Philly offered for him...but Theo failed right?
    Posted by Soxdog67

    A team with the resources i.e. money, has to do a better job than the job Theo has done in figuring out solutions to obvious trouble spots. A team with a legimate chance to win it all has to do better than trading  essentially the same person Sutton, for Aviles or getting mediocre LH like Morales for bull-pen. Their total inaction for a RH bat for RF or off the bench, and no Connor Jackson is not the answer. The above moves IMO were all done on the cheap, even getting Bedard was a cost efficient move seeing he is under contract only for remaining of year. Theo should have offered Lavarnway in trade if Salty is longtime solution to catching.I'm sure the Sox could have made a better offer to aquire say Willingham or Francouer. Their total inaction at the trade deadline to at least attempt to correct front end of bull-pen is unforgivable at this address, I'm not privy to all negotiations, but a good organization should bite the bullet, and go above and beyond to aquire needed help. The failure to do so again IMO is at the feet of Theo, and the Sox organization as a whole. I don't know any other conclusion to draw than that once season started, they decieded that any holes that had to be filled in would be done with cost being the biggest concern.
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 1:46 PM EDT

    I'm not sure you can blame Theo for the pitching staff.

    Lester/Beckett/Buch/Lackey/Dice-K should have been a great rotation. 

    Lackey should be better than he is.  His lack of performance is squarely in his shoulders.  He doesn't have to be a 20 games winner (even if he's getting paid like it).  But he should be expected to have an era under 4.25.  The team has no shot with him on the mound.

    Can't blame theo for Buch's injury.

    Can't blame Theo for Dice-k needing TJ surgery.

    The combination of Miller/Aceves/Wakefield should be a great long reliever/spot starter. 

    Buch's injury and Lackey's pathetic showing are the 2 problems.  They are almost too big to over come.
     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 2:29 PM EDT

    Injuries are something that is the X factor going through any season.  The problem for the Sox the past two years is that their highly touted minor league system has produced nobody of note to step up and fill the injured player's shoes - regardless of what position was needed.  It seems that the Sox have managed to trade away any immediate help that might have been in the minors to acquire hitting - something the Sox are rarely short of in Fenway.  The Phillies on less money than either the Sox or Yanks have done things exactly right.  They went after pitching and boy did they ever get it!
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 3:16 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses:
    I'm not sure you can blame Theo for the pitching staff. Lester/Beckett/Buch/Lackey/Dice-K should have been a great rotation.  Lackey should be better than he is.  His lack of performance is squarely in his shoulders.  He doesn't have to be a 20 games winner (even if he's getting paid like it).  But he should be expected to have an era under 4.25.  The team has no shot with him on the mound. Can't blame theo for Buch's injury. Can't blame Theo for Dice-k needing TJ surgery. The combination of Miller/Aceves/Wakefield should be a great long reliever/spot starter.  Buch's injury and Lackey's pathetic showing are the 2 problems.  They are almost too big to over come.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover


    Dirtywater - What has DiceK done since 2008? Exactly a 16-15 record, an ERA over 5 and a WHIP over 1.5. Why bring him up in the discussions? He's been a total bust since 2008.
     

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    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 3:18 PM EDT

    in a perfect world, lackey isnt in the MLB
     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 3:33 PM EDT

    Looking at the stats, even the Red Sox BEST two starters, Josh Beckett and Jon Lester, only average 6.4 and 6.3 IP/start, tax the bullpen. If you throw in the Red Sox starter with the 3rd most IP, include Lackey (5.66 IP/start) for comparison to Tampa's top 3 starters:

    James Shields (7.5IP/start), Jeremy Hellickson (6.9 IP/start),and David Price (6.5IP / start).  This gives you an extra 78 IP out of your bullpen for the top three starters only.
     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 4:40 PM EDT

    THE YANKS WORK THROUGH THEIR INJURIES, AND WHEN
    THEY DO, THEY GET REPLACEMENTS IMMEDIATELY. A ROD GOT
    INJURED...SO WHAT ??? THEY REPLACED HIM WITH NUNEZ
    AND CHAVEZ AND STILL WILL WIN THE AL EAST BY 10 !!
    JOBA GOT INJURED , HUGHES IS INJURED,...DIDN'T BOTHER
    THE YANKEES. JETER GOT INJURED !! DIDN'T HURT THE YANKS.
    ACTUALLY , NOTHING HURTS THE YANKS. EVEN IF SABATHIA
    WENT DOWN, THEY WOULD COME UP WITH GUYS LIKE
    NOVA TO WIN, WIN, WIN !!! THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE SUCH
    AN EFFICIENT SETUP, UNLIKE WHAT THEO HAS DONE.
    SIGNING LACKEY, CRAWFORD, AND ALLOWING WAKE TO
    START THE YEAR IN THE ROTATION HAS BEEN AN
    UNMITIGATED FAILURE. YOUKILIS IS BEATEN UP AND
    PLAYS LIKE A 37 YEAR OLD. WE WILL BE LUCKY TO
    RE-SIGN ELLSBURY. VARITEK IS THROUGH AND WE STILL
    DON'T HAVE A BACKUP CATCHER !! THIS LACK OF
    PLANNING HAS TO BE LAID AT THE FEET OF EPSTEIN....
    AFTER ALL HE IS THE GENERAL MANAGER, ISN'T HE.
    WE CAN'T BLAME THIS ON THE YANKS !!!
     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 5:03 PM EDT

    Sorry, but Ortiz and Peter Abraham notwithstanding, I'm not fully convinced that Aceves as a starter would have turned things around.  Where Francona has mostly used him is as the middle reliever only in games the Sox can win, which mostly means games in which they have the lead.  Given the many, many short starts by all starters--including Lester and Beckett--a good argument can be made this was and is the best use of Aceves.  Remember, were he a starter, chances are very good he would need good bullpen support, but not have an Aceves type to provide that support. 
     

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/21/2011 7:16 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses:
    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses : A team with the resources i.e. money, has to do a better job than the job Theo has done in figuring out solutions to obvious trouble spots. A team with a legimate chance to win it all has to do better than trading  essentially the same person Sutton, for Aviles or getting mediocre LH like Morales for bull-pen. Their total inaction for a RH bat for RF or off the bench, and no Connor Jackson is not the answer. The above moves IMO were all done on the cheap, even getting Bedard was a cost efficient move seeing he is under contract only for remaining of year. Theo should have offered Lavarnway in trade if Salty is longtime solution to catching.I'm sure the Sox could have made a better offer to aquire say Willingham or Francouer. Their total inaction at the trade deadline to at least attempt to correct front end of bull-pen is unforgivable at this address, I'm not privy to all negotiations, but a good organization should bite the bullet, and go above and beyond to aquire needed help. The failure to do so again IMO is at the feet of Theo, and the Sox organization as a whole. I don't know any other conclusion to draw than that once season started, they decieded that any holes that had to be filled in would be done with cost being the biggest concern.
    Posted by attic-dan


    Dan, I understand that Jackson and Morales are not the answer to fixing the Sox RH bat and LH specialist spots, however, Ryan Lavarnway...who is currently prospected as nothing more than a DH at the major league level, would not have brought the Sox Francoeur (who actually signed a multi-year deal with the Royals) or Willingham. If the A's were not asking too much for Willingham there's a good chance he would have been here over Jackson.

    Be aware that rival GM's are not stupid and know when the Sox come calling for a position of need that they will want equal, if not, greater value to pull off that trade.

    Dan, you never did provide any names of prospective pitchers, available at the trade deadline, that would have helped this team fight through the mess they're in at this time. I think Bedard was the best of the lot actually...considering he was once a top starter with the O's and had AL East experience.

     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/22/2011 12:00 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses:
    In Response to Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses : Dan, I understand that Jackson and Morales are not the answer to fixing the Sox RH bat and LH specialist spots, however, Ryan Lavarnway...who is currently prospected as nothing more than a DH at the major league level, would not have brought the Sox Francoeur (who actually signed a multi-year deal with the Royals) or Willingham. If the A's were not asking too much for Willingham there's a good chance he would have been here over Jackson. Be aware that rival GM's are not stupid and know when the Sox come calling for a position of need that they will want equal, if not, greater value to pull off that trade. Dan, you never did provide any names of prospective pitchers, available at the trade deadline, that would have helped this team fight through the mess they're in at this time. I think Bedard was the best of the lot actually...considering he was once a top starter with the O's and had AL East experience.
    Posted by Soxdog67

       I realize the other GM's aren't stupid I'm not one those posters who want to un-load a bunch of garbage to get a star player. IMO the Sox could have offered Larvarnway with say a double A prospect to get a  middle reliever, and just check any NL team that has fallen out of play-offs  will provide your list. The Rangers moved on Adams who has worked out and Uehara who hasn't.  Looking in hindsight I believe Theo and the organization, thought at the trade deadline that they were  a lock for the play-offs, and that was good enough for them, a WS ring would be a bonus. Their lack of moves is the difference between a team going for it all, and one who is content to just get there.
     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diamondtalk. Show Diamondtalk's posts

    Re: Horrible Starting Pitching = Over used Bullpen = Continued Losses

    posted at 9/22/2011 12:22 PM EDT

    It all comes down to pitching.    The Sox were ill prepared with good arms in the farm system with hopes there would be no injuries to the starting pitching and thinking  Lackey wouldn't stink it up more than ever.
    As the starting staff was not going deep in games it only caused the bullpen to be overused.