How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    What? To be greedy? No wonder most of the world hates America if that's the 'American Way' and citizens embrace it so much.

    Wrong on that one also.  I've been around, and I have never gotten the impression that anyone dislikes us.

    Seriously, it seems like virtually everyone I've met overseas either loves us, or wants to be us.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to croc's comment:

    My rule of thumb is if you are the MVP, hit .688 with 1.948 OPS in a WS and you can jolly well ask about a new contract. 

    If you didn't shut-up.



    My standard is that, if you have 3 WSC's or more with the RS, you can turn to stone on the bench and I won't care.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    ... see italics outs

     

    The comparisons you’re using are absurd.

    As for CONTRACTED people...if they start trying to renegotiate in the midst of the contract...their likely looking for new work. If you bring in a contractor, agree on a price to remodel your kitchen...and half way through he decides he's working TOO good, and TOO fast, and demands more money...do you pay him? If you do, I think you're an idiot. You'd sue for breach of contract.

    Ridiculous comparison. Ortiz isn’t demanding more money for this year (or to use your analogy, he's not looking for more money to remodel the kitchen). And he’s not threatening not to do the job he’s contracted to do this year. So what’s the beef? You’d be laughed out of court if you tried to sue for breach of contract because he hasn’t breached the contract.

    To use your contractor comparison, what Ortiz is doing is this. You contracted him to remodel the kitchen, but next year you want remodel the bathrooms but haven't contracted him or anyone else to do the job. You're waiting until after this work is done before contracting him or anyone else to do the bathrooms. What Ortiz is asking for to be contracted now to remodel the bathrooms. He still going to do the kitchen for what you agreed to pay him.

    Ortiz is the best DH in history. Jim Abbott is the best one-handed pitcher in history! What do they have in common? It's a competition of 1. Oh, wait...in Ortiz' case, a competition of 2. 

    Another ridiculous comparison.

    There is no position in baseball called one-handed pitcher. There is an actual position called DH. So being the best at a position means something. And there have been more than one other player who played most of his career as a DH. Beyond that, it’s dumb to simply narrow it down to DH. How about him last year being one of the top five hitters in baseball. Or how about him being one of the top hitters in baseball during his career.

     

    If you don't like him complaining about his contract, fine. i think a lot of us agree. If you don't think the Sox should extend him now, fine. Reasonable people can have different opinions on this and it's another argument.

    But these comparisons you're using to try to support your case simply hurts your case, rather than support it.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    If you don't like him complaining about his contract, fine. i think a lot of us agree. If you don't think the Sox should extend him now, fine. Reasonable people can have different opinions on this and it's another argument.

    But these comparisons you're using to try to support your case simply hurts your case, rather than support it.

    I agree.  I don't really care that much.  I'd give him a one-year extension every year until he has a weak year.  If he bombs out in 2015, I really couldn't care less.  Call it a retirement present for one of the all-time memorable careers in Boston.

    If he doesn't want a one-year extension, I'd give him a QO.

    But I don't understand the hatred.  You want him, fine.  You don't want him, AND, you have a valid reason for not wanting him, fine.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    roy, joe, manny...all good points.

    I'm willing to amend my position.

    I'm not right.

    Here's the best way I can explain my basic issue; he doesn't need to say anything.

    He never has. The Sax would have paid him every single time anyway! History has proven that...so WHY does he need to keep doing it?

    Is he the greatest Sox CHAMPION of all time? Without a doubt.

    How would anyone feel if he started standing up, and saying he was the best ever? I know how I would feel.

    LET the accolades come. LET the money come! It's worth so much more when it's freely given, and you didn't have to bring it up time and time again. When does anyone say he doesn't deserve respect? When does anyone say he doesn't deserve money? Only in response to his statements. His timing in the past has been atrocious. His timing now is perfect, for him. 

    It's not even hard to say the right thing. It's even easier to say nothing. 

    Had he said nothing last year, he'd be a free agent RIGHT NOW! I guess, in the end, it bit him in the a s s anyway. 

    My comparisons weren't the greatest. I still believe in the point I'm trying to make. Saying nothing, EVER, probably would have benefitted monetarily...he defenetly would have had an even greater legacy. Yes. Even Greater.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTS. Show BostonTS's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    Who does this guy think he is? A three time champion and local legend who just hit .600 in the World Series or something? 

    Oh yeah, he did do that. 

    There's such a thing as earning your right to be a diva.

    Papi could handle this kind of thing better (the "for my family" stuff is especially ridiculous, if he hasn't provided for his family by now he has a serious problem)

    But he has every right to ask for what he wants.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTS. Show BostonTS's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    p.s. Bill I'll remind you in July you were ready to hand the keys to the franchise from Papi to JBJ.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    I'm with BostonTroll and Moonslav on this one. Ortiz has meant more to the Red Sox than almost anyone else in the history of the franchise. He was the driving force behind three World Series Championships. He's been woefully underpaid relative to other players in the same clubhouse who produced at significantly lower levels. Frankly, all things considered, I'm amazed he hasn't whined more!

    This guy easily deserved a long-term contract at some point in his career and never got one. He's mostly been extended on a year to year basis. At no time has he ever asked for something overly extravagant. He's always been reasonable about annual salary, he's always been amenable to relatively short-term deals at below market dollars. The Red Sox could offer him a one year extension for 2015 at $16 million and he'd probably be satisfied.

    If ever a player deserved a multi-year contract with some degree of risk involved, it's David Ortiz. Of course there should be limits. Of course it shouldn't be anything too crazy. But when guys who are not nearly as good as Ortiz regularly get more years and more money (on his own team!), there's no legitimate excuse for not extending your best current player who also happens to be the most significant player in the last 50+ years of your franchise's history!

    I agree that Ortiz's agent should be doing the talking instead of Ortiz himself. However, that doesn't change the reality that Ortiz is absolutely right on this one. The Red Sox not making him a top priority is insulting. They take him for granted because they know they can get away with it. Instead of nickling and diming him, they should sign him to a lifetime contract already, with adequate protection for the team. Guarantee him $16 million in 2015. Add a team option for $12 million plus incentives in 2016 that becomes guaranteed with a certain number of plate appearances. Add perpetual team options after that at much lower base salaries with incentives that would keep the annual salary at around $16 million for as long as he produces at 2013 levels.

    Let him opt-out after the first of those perpetual team options, in case he's trapped into a deal that underpays him. (I doubt that would be the case, but it's theoretically possible). Include mention of some type of post-playing ambassadorial role with the team (for goodwill purposes more than anything else).

    It would be a win-win-win scenario for everyone. Ortiz gets his extension. The Red Sox don't overpay him for more than a year at most (which would be fine since they've vastly underpaid him throughout his tenure in Boston). The fans and media would respond well because player and team alike would generate good publicity by essentially wedding themselves to one another for life. This would also eliminate the risk of some other team like the Yankees swooping in and sullying the Ortiz/Red Sox legacy. Just make this happen, it could get done in a day or two.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    roy, joe, manny...all good points.

    I'm willing to amend my position.

    I'm not right.

    Here's the best way I can explain my basic issue; he doesn't need to say anything.

    He never has. The Sax would have paid him every single time anyway! History has proven that...so WHY does he need to keep doing it?

    Is he the greatest Sox CHAMPION of all time? Without a doubt.

    How would anyone feel if he started standing up, and saying he was the best ever? I know how I would feel.

    LET the accolades come. LET the money come! It's worth so much more when it's freely given, and you didn't have to bring it up time and time again. When does anyone say he doesn't deserve respect? When does anyone say he doesn't deserve money? Only in response to his statements. His timing in the past has been atrocious. His timing now is perfect, for him. 

    It's not even hard to say the right thing. It's even easier to say nothing. 

    Had he said nothing last year, he'd be a free agent RIGHT NOW! I guess, in the end, it bit him in the a s s anyway. 

    My comparisons weren't the greatest. I still believe in the point I'm trying to make. Saying nothing, EVER, probably would have benefitted monetarily...he defenetly would have had an even greater legacy. Yes. Even Greater.



    It's the way he is, period.

    The guy wears his heart on his sleeve, as evidenced by the rally after the bombings last year.

    I'd rather have a guy be honest, than be a flippin' robot and roll out the same tired cliche's, every time he's asked a question.

    I wish a lot of folks in my life would act differenty than they do sometimes.

    But, it's just the way they are. I get over it, without a day long rant.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to JIMMYPROFFER's comment:

    In response to Iceman4's comment:


    Ortiz deserves an extension.....HOF



    Not sure about that, being a DH and the PEDs allegations may make it tough.




    interesting.  why is "allegation" plural?  i mean besides the NEW YORK times "source".?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    In response to JIMMYPROFFER's comment:

    In response to Iceman4's comment:


    Ortiz deserves an extension.....HOF



    Not sure about that, being a DH and the PEDs allegations may make it tough.




    interesting.  why is "allegation" plural?  i mean besides the NEW YORK times "source".?




    I could care less about the ped allegations.  The chain of custody for the testing in those days is questionable. In court once the chain of custody is shown broken, bye bye case.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    Ortiz talks a lot about getting respect..but he is not being respectful to the team or the front office when he chooses to conduct contract negotiations in the media..and when he makes passive aggressive remarks such as "I hope I'm not wearing a different uniform". Enough already.  I seem to remember reading over the summer that there was an agreement between the Red Sox and Ortiz that contract talks would not begin until the summer of 2014. If this is true then Ortiz is showing an incredibly amount of disrespect to the front office with his recent comments.

    Yes..he is a great DH..arguably one of the greatest. However he is also very well paid for what he does and the incentive based limited year contracts the Sox have offered him are more than fair. Ortiz has no qualms about referring to baseball as a business at the end of the day..and well..yes..it is a business. Sox fans love Ortiz..but there is no market for him beyond Fenway. None.

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    Ortiz talks a lot about getting respect..but he is not being respectful to the team or the front office when he chooses to conduct contract negotiations in the media..and when he makes passive aggressive remarks such as "I hope I'm not wearing a different uniform". Enough already.  I seem to remember reading over the summer that there was an agreement between the Red Sox and Ortiz that contract talks would not begin until the summer of 2014. If this is true then Ortiz is showing an incredibly amount of disrespect to the front office with his recent comments.

    Yes..he is a great DH..arguably one of the greatest. However he is also very well paid for what he does and the incentive based limited year contracts the Sox have offered him are more than fair. Ortiz has no qualms about referring to baseball as a business at the end of the day..and well..yes..it is a business. Sox fans love Ortiz..but there is no market for him beyond Fenway. None.



    2013 regular season:  .309/30/103, .959 OPS

    2013 post-season:  .688 avg., 1.188 slugging,  1.948 OPS

     

    What was that about there being no market beyond Fenway?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    He's not talking extension...I was wrong.

    When this deal is over, he wants multiple years. Or, according to him, "Time to move on."

    I guess he means "move on...to retirement". No team will be giving a 39 year old multiple years. Not one of them.

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    He's not talking extension...I was wrong.

    When this deal is over, he wants multiple years. Or, according to him, "Time to move on."

    I guess he means "move on...to retirement". No team will be giving a 39 year old multiple years. Not one of them.



    Right.  That is why his desparation-fueled soundbite is a non-starter.  It affects nothing.  The Sox FO will not do anything.  He is not forcing anyones hand.  The only way to extend his career is to put up another amazing year and be the team leader.  His words are just out of petulant frustration that he is arguagbly hitting better than he ever has and he is too old to get anykind of security beyond a really rich year to year see-how-it-goes deal.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    He's not talking extension...I was wrong.

    When this deal is over, he wants multiple years. Or, according to him, "Time to move on."

    I guess he means "move on...to retirement". No team will be giving a 39 year old multiple years. Not one of them.




    no they won't.  regardless of how next season goes, good or bad, the red sox will give Ortiz a QO. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    Ortiz talks a lot about getting respect..but he is not being respectful to the team or the front office when he chooses to conduct contract negotiations in the media..and when he makes passive aggressive remarks such as "I hope I'm not wearing a different uniform". Enough already.  I seem to remember reading over the summer that there was an agreement between the Red Sox and Ortiz that contract talks would not begin until the summer of 2014. If this is true then Ortiz is showing an incredibly amount of disrespect to the front office with his recent comments.

    Yes..he is a great DH..arguably one of the greatest. However he is also very well paid for what he does and the incentive based limited year contracts the Sox have offered him are more than fair. Ortiz has no qualms about referring to baseball as a business at the end of the day..and well..yes..it is a business. Sox fans love Ortiz..but there is no market for him beyond Fenway. None.



    2013 regular season:  .309/30/103, .959 OPS

    2013 post-season:  .688 avg., 1.188 slugging,  1.948 OPS

     

    What was that about there being no market beyond Fenway?




    I am not disputing the numbers and Ortiz' are great. No team is going to pay him what he wants for the role he wants. Most teams don't use a DH who also doesn't play more in the field. My opinion is that there is no market beyond Fenway for him. Ortiz knows it and his agent knows it..hence the media theatrics that occur frequently from our beloved Papi.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    Ortiz talks a lot about getting respect..but he is not being respectful to the team or the front office when he chooses to conduct contract negotiations in the media..and when he makes passive aggressive remarks such as "I hope I'm not wearing a different uniform". Enough already.  I seem to remember reading over the summer that there was an agreement between the Red Sox and Ortiz that contract talks would not begin until the summer of 2014. If this is true then Ortiz is showing an incredibly amount of disrespect to the front office with his recent comments.

    Yes..he is a great DH..arguably one of the greatest. However he is also very well paid for what he does and the incentive based limited year contracts the Sox have offered him are more than fair. Ortiz has no qualms about referring to baseball as a business at the end of the day..and well..yes..it is a business. Sox fans love Ortiz..but there is no market for him beyond Fenway. None.



    2013 regular season:  .309/30/103, .959 OPS

    2013 post-season:  .688 avg., 1.188 slugging,  1.948 OPS

     

    What was that about there being no market beyond Fenway?




    I am not disputing the numbers and Ortiz' are great. No team is going to pay him what he wants for the role he wants. Most teams don't use a DH who also doesn't play more in the field. My opinion is that there is no market beyond Fenway for him. Ortiz knows it and his agent knows it..hence the media theatrics that occur frequently from our beloved Papi.



    Thats what I have been saying.  And thats all it is.  Theatrics.  There is no real threat of any kind of obstruction or disruption or anything remotely akin to not honoring his contract.  Just bad theater.  

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

     

    He's not talking extension...I was wrong.

    When this deal is over, he wants multiple years. Or, according to him, "Time to move on."

    I guess he means "move on...to retirement". No team will be giving a 39 year old multiple years. Not one of them.

     




     

    No offense, but what are you talking about? Do you have a source for this?

    It appears that's the opposite of what Ortiz is asking for...

    http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2014/01/29/david-ortiz-says-he-wants-one-year-extension-optimistic-about-talks-with-red-sox/

    He's not asking for multiple years after 2014. He wants a one-year extension tacked on to the deal he already has. (Which should be a no-brainer, in my opinion.)

    The whole thing is worth reading, but especially this:

    'While Ortiz recently suggested that he would look for employment elsewhere in response to a question about what he’d do if the Sox didn’t offer him a “long-term deal,” Ortiz said that he was responding to a hypothetical in which the team showed no interest in retaining him.

    “I heard a comment the other day that came through the news about me saying that I’m going to go somewhere else. People sometimes take the wrong message. I was asked if the Red Sox don’t want to offer me an extension, then what am I going to do? I’m not going to retire. I’ll go somewhere else,” said Ortiz. “Whoever offers me a contract, that’s where I’m going to be. It’s not a secret from no one that I want to be part of this organization. This is where I want to play. But it’s a business. You’re not supposed to be mad at no one. You just do what you got to do, you take what they give you and in the worst case, they don’t offer you a contract and you go somewhere else." '

    Wow. So after three different threads and a near witch-hunt on BDC, it seems Ortiz was not even trying to say what most of us thought he was.

    I don't know if he misunderstood the question he was asked, or if something got lost in translation (some other poster mentioned the inherent difficulty in discussing all of this in a second language)...but what I read here is that Ortiz was merely saying if, for some reason, the Red Sox did not offer him a contract beyond this season, then he would (obviously) go play somewhere else rather than retire.

    That's what people have been so worked up about.

    Hopefully we can put this nonsense to rest now. As I said, spring training can't get here soon enough.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    Ortiz is now changing the question, and his answer.

    He specifically mentioned MULTIPLE YEAR CONTRACT, then was specifically asked, and if the Sox don't offer one, he responded "Time to move on". Those last 4 words are an exact quote. The earlier references are how it went. I again heard the questioning, in it's entirety, on the radio.

    The question was if the Sox don't want to offer him a multiple year contract:

    "“As long as they keep offering me a job and I keep doing what I’m supposed to do and the relationship keeps on building up, I’m going to be there. Hopefully, I won’t have to go and wear another uniform,” he said, hoping for another multi-year extension from Boston.

    Toucher & Rich: Ortiz Asking For Contract Extension… Again

    But if the Red Sox do not offer him a multi-year deal, or it’s not up to Ortiz’s standards, the slugger said it would be “time to move on.”

    “If I have to, I’ve got no choice,” he said. “I’m not going to quit. As long as I keep hitting the ball the way I have, I’ve got to keep on giving it a try."

    More than one reference to it being multiple years BEYOND what he's currently signed for. He can try to backtrack all he wants, but the history doesn't lie.

    Source:

    http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/01/27/red-sox-ortiz-on-sports-final-hopefully-i-wont-have-to-wear-another-uniform/

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    The best line on this, a tweet that was quoted on the Globe website:

    'The Twins cut him to avoid these types of problems.'

     
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