How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    pedey is his agent.  jay-z was busy.....

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    pedey is his agent.  jay-z was busy.....

    [/QUOTE]

    Pedey:  I got 99 problems, but Papi stuntin' for an extension ain't one

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    ...the MOST disappointing thing is how much the fans enable, encourage, and seemingly SUPPORT this behavior. 

    I support Papi, yes!

    He has been the biggest Sox hero ever!

    I wish every Sox player would mirrored Papi's behavior in World Series.

    [/QUOTE]

    But do you wish every Sox player mirrored his behavior off the field?

    It wouldn't matter one bit to me, and you assume that players that had a .300 OPS in the WS would ask to extend. Not going to happen.

     

    Is it a 3 or 4 year deal he's asking for? No. Funny, that was the same argument 3 year ago. And 4. and 5. and 6.

    You know, some people seem to forget...he didn't play great all those years. 

    He hasn't always been underpaid.

    Correct, but...

    He played great for all but about 2-3 years. Overall, he has been grossly underpaid compared to other players putting up those kind of numbers. Then there are all the WS and playoff heroics. He helped put the Sox back on the map.

    You may disagree with the fangraphs value calculation, but it is at least a close measurement of comparative value, especially since it overcounts fielding value to a large extent. Here is what they valued Papi at (and this is just regular season value!) (The ___ denotes end of contract

    2003 $8.9M  /Paid $1.25M  (-$7.7M)

    2004 $12.9M / $4.6M           (-$8.3M)

    2005 $17.3M / $5.25M

    2006 $19.8M / $5.25M        (-$26.4M)

    2007 $25.5M /$13M

    2008 $7.9M / $13M

    2009 $0.1M / $13M

    2010 $9.7M / $13M

    2011 $17.5M/ $12.5M        (+3.8M)

    2012 $12.9M/ $14.6M        (+1.7M)

    2013 $19M /$15M    (-$4M so far)

    2014  ???/  $11M               (???)

     

    The total value, not counting the value of playoff heroics has been about a $40M underpay.

     

    But that never stopped his mouth. If this was the first time...maybe even only the 3rd or 4th time, I wouldn't mind so much. But this is a pattern of selfish behavior that is INDISPUTABLE. 

    It's the American way. Perhaps, if they'd signed him to an 8 year deal like some players, it wouldn't have happened so often. Look, I have never criticized Sox management for not signing an aging player to a long term deal, especially after his sketchy seasons from age 32-34. I get why they have done what they have done, but I also get why Papi has fought for every dollar he can get. He has done unbelievably heroic things for many many years. His value to the Sox has been much much more than what fangraphs said it was.

    I am certain Sox management will do everything they can to make sure Papi retires a Red Sox, within reason. They will listen to Papi's ideas and determine if he is worth extending. They will factor in some for past performance and glory, as has been done for many a ML contract. They will factor in Papi's value as "the face of the franchise" and as a merchandising cash cow. They will probably extend him 1 year with maybe a second year buyout with incentives and a buyout. Maybe something like this:

    2015 $16M with a $1M incentive for 600+ PAs.

    2016: $13M club option with a $1M buyout and incentives of $1M for 500 PAs, $1M for 550, and $1M for 600+ PAs.

     

    Funny, I don't see anywhere Ortiz mentions "home team discount" or alludes to wanting anything less than an overpayment based on the current market. So, I don't see how Lester said the same thing.

    I didn't see Lester near singlehandedly leading the team to 3 rings either. You're missing a major factor here.

     

    Become a Yankee fan? Yeah, because what I'M saying is just "PAY WHATEVER HE WANTS!" No, that's what YOU are saying Moon, along with many others. And THAT is EXACTLY how Yankee fans act. I can't believe something so ignorant and foolish came out of your mouth.

    Stop the lies. I have never come close to saying "pay whatever he wants". Please go back and find anything I wrote even remotely close to your lie.

     

    When the team collapsed in 2011, where was he? When Valentine destroyed this team, where was he? He is NOT a clubhouse leader, I don't care what trumped up pre-game speeches he gives. After all that drama, he used the press again to say "Maybe I'll go to the NYY." Not, "maybe I'll go elsewhere", he specifically took a low blow s h o t and mentioned the NYY as the team he would explore going to. Damon anyone? And he didn't threaten that, he did it after Theo LAUGHED at him! Oh, but the fans couldn't accept that. They guy tried to, literally, run through walls for this team. But the Sox didn't want to pay him, the Yankees did...and he's the bad guy. This is the SAME SITUATION, and somehow, Ortiz is the good guy, and if he also went to the NYY, somehow...fans would boo the Sox over it.

    I never called Damon "the bad guy". I'm gald he didn't re-sign with the Sox. His best position on the Sox for those years woiuld have been LF or DH- and we had thos epositions pretty well covered already.

     

    But I'M the crazy one..

    That's the first step to recovery: admitting it.

     

    Red Sox fans have become the most out-of-touch, unlikable bunch of fans I know. I can not believe the insane star worship that goes on. It's like watching a bunch of teenagers drool over Bruno Mars.

    If you applied what Ortiz is doing to ANY other facet of life, none of you would accept it.

    Look what Oprah gets paid, then get back to me.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    I respect your opinion.....  I certainly was "WRONG LAST YEAR"......   This certainly will be the "hot topic" going into  S T  !!!

    It seems to me that you refuse to be happy.  You whined all year about papi.  He had a great year, and we won the WS.  We haven't even started the new season, and you're whining about Papi already.

    1-Why not give him a one-year extension?  He's made the AS team 9-10 years.  He's won 3 WSC's with us.

    2-We extended Pedey and Buchholz, and are looking to extend Lester.  Isn't Papi as integral to our team.

    I'm beginning to wonder if there is some non-BB reason why you hate Papi so much.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    It's the American Way?

    What? To be greedy? No wonder most of the world hates America if that's the 'American Way' and citizens embrace it so much.

    Whoever said it's how anyone would do it? Um, no. For those working as wage employees with no job security whatsoever...it's not even CLOSE to the same. MLB contracts are guaranteed. Ortiz doesn't run the risk of his "position being eliminated" or "laid off" or simply fired for no reason as an at-will employee, which most people are. 

    As for CONTRACTED people...if they start trying to renegotiate in the midst of the contract...their likely looking for new work. If you bring in a contractor, agree on a price to remodel your kitchen...and half way through he decides he's working TOO good, and TOO fast, and demands more money...do you pay him? If you do, I think you're an idiot. You'd sue for breach of contract.

    But, that's also not an exact somparison. Fact is, there is no direct comparison. It's basically, Ortiz agreed to something...now is whining about it. And he's done this numerous times over half a decade. You'd think he'd learn...or hire a new agent...or something. He keeps signing these deals, and then the whining starts. He went to free agency within the past few years...and NOBODY WANTED HIM except the Sox.

    The Red Sox are the ONLY team that pays big for a DH anymore, otherwise someone would have signed him. When Vlad was making 5mil a year as a comparable DH out west, Ortiz was cashing 8 figure salaries.

    Ortiz is the best DH in history. Jim Abbott is the best one-handed pitcher in history! What do they have in common? It's a competition of 1. Oh, wait...in Ortiz' case, a competition of 2. 

    Moon, I ALWAYS appreciate your thought out, well crafted responses. I applied the "pay whatever" thinking to you, upon review...I was incorrect. You did not say that. Everything else, I stand by. I want to respond...but the thought of quoting all that and trying to go through and respond as you do...it's more than I can tackle at the moment.

    The PLAYER I love, the public speaker I wish I never heard.

    If you overpay Ortiz...how do Pedroia and Lester now feel about their deals? What's Bogaerts and WMB and JBJ going to then be looking for? You ghave to be VERY careful when setting this kind of standard. It's a very slippery slope. WMBs agent does not care that he isn't Ortiz, he will use past dealings against the Sox.

    Ortiz, HIMSELF said it's a business. And it is. That being said...it's HORRIBLE BUSINESS TO GIVE A 38 YEAR OLD AN EXTENSION!

    The Sox did this just LAST YEAR and it was reportedly with the understanding Ortiz WOULD NOT DO IT AGAIN. Well, a WS title later, he feels empowered, and the fans enable...so why not. I, for one, will not ever support such selfish behavior. I don't care if he was asked, or how he was...he's had more than ample time to figure out how to answer this without looking so greedy.

    Had he simply kept his mouth s h u t...could the Sox EVER let him just walk? The fans would flip the fk out. But, now he's opened his mouth as many times as he has...and he's created a division. Rather than Boston being 100% pro-Ortiz, he, HIMSELF, has created a minority segment of people, such as myself, who have grown sick of this process with him. I may be part of 20%, 10%, 5%...I don't know for sure...I DO know I'm not alone...and it's sad for Ortiz.

    Youk will go down as one of my favorites...he never wanted out. Pedroia is there right now. Lester almost got lost, but he's back in that group. Was Pesky the best Red Sox player of all time? Nope. Was he the most beloved? Possibly. And...tell me why that was again?

    Oh, because he was here, in Boston, saying the right things, doing the right things, always with the right attitude. He did it until MLB said he couldn't be in the dugout during games (fk you Selig).

    I'm too young to have seen him play...but the boy who loves this game inside of me yearns for more Mark Fidrych's...the guy tried to give money BACK when he underperformed...fans sent money IN to keep him from leaving. Sure, it was the 70s...I guess that's ancient society now...but THAT is the American Way I think of...not this me first, pay me now attitude. Fk that.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    Red Sox fans have become the most out-of-touch, unlikable bunch of fans I know. I can not believe the insane star worship that goes on. It's like watching a bunch of teenagers drool over Bruno Mars.

    No, we're the likeable fans in this debate.  We've always liked Papi and we want him to stay.

    One of the reasons I am a RS fan is that I got to watch Yaz for about 17 years.  I want to do the same with Pedey and Papi and Lester.  As Lester so eloquently put it, I want to see them tear the jersey off his back.

    I want him to go out as a RS player on a Mo tour.  I want to be at YS when even the Yankee fans give him standing ovation in his finale.

    How is this being a dislikeable fan?  I think it defines fandom, and i would expect fans from every team to feel the same about their players.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    What? To be greedy? No wonder most of the world hates America if that's the 'American Way' and citizens embrace it so much.

    Wrong on that one also.  I've been around, and I have never gotten the impression that anyone dislikes us.

    Seriously, it seems like virtually everyone I've met overseas either loves us, or wants to be us.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to croc's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    My rule of thumb is if you are the MVP, hit .688 with 1.948 OPS in a WS and you can jolly well ask about a new contract. 

    If you didn't shut-up.

    [/QUOTE]

    My standard is that, if you have 3 WSC's or more with the RS, you can turn to stone on the bench and I won't care.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ... see italics outs

    [/QUOTE]

     

    The comparisons you’re using are absurd.

    As for CONTRACTED people...if they start trying to renegotiate in the midst of the contract...their likely looking for new work. If you bring in a contractor, agree on a price to remodel your kitchen...and half way through he decides he's working TOO good, and TOO fast, and demands more money...do you pay him? If you do, I think you're an idiot. You'd sue for breach of contract.

    Ridiculous comparison. Ortiz isn’t demanding more money for this year (or to use your analogy, he's not looking for more money to remodel the kitchen). And he’s not threatening not to do the job he’s contracted to do this year. So what’s the beef? You’d be laughed out of court if you tried to sue for breach of contract because he hasn’t breached the contract.

    To use your contractor comparison, what Ortiz is doing is this. You contracted him to remodel the kitchen, but next year you want remodel the bathrooms but haven't contracted him or anyone else to do the job. You're waiting until after this work is done before contracting him or anyone else to do the bathrooms. What Ortiz is asking for to be contracted now to remodel the bathrooms. He still going to do the kitchen for what you agreed to pay him.

    Ortiz is the best DH in history. Jim Abbott is the best one-handed pitcher in history! What do they have in common? It's a competition of 1. Oh, wait...in Ortiz' case, a competition of 2. 

    Another ridiculous comparison.

    There is no position in baseball called one-handed pitcher. There is an actual position called DH. So being the best at a position means something. And there have been more than one other player who played most of his career as a DH. Beyond that, it’s dumb to simply narrow it down to DH. How about him last year being one of the top five hitters in baseball. Or how about him being one of the top hitters in baseball during his career.

     

    If you don't like him complaining about his contract, fine. i think a lot of us agree. If you don't think the Sox should extend him now, fine. Reasonable people can have different opinions on this and it's another argument.

    But these comparisons you're using to try to support your case simply hurts your case, rather than support it.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    If you don't like him complaining about his contract, fine. i think a lot of us agree. If you don't think the Sox should extend him now, fine. Reasonable people can have different opinions on this and it's another argument.

    But these comparisons you're using to try to support your case simply hurts your case, rather than support it.

    I agree.  I don't really care that much.  I'd give him a one-year extension every year until he has a weak year.  If he bombs out in 2015, I really couldn't care less.  Call it a retirement present for one of the all-time memorable careers in Boston.

    If he doesn't want a one-year extension, I'd give him a QO.

    But I don't understand the hatred.  You want him, fine.  You don't want him, AND, you have a valid reason for not wanting him, fine.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    roy, joe, manny...all good points.

    I'm willing to amend my position.

    I'm not right.

    Here's the best way I can explain my basic issue; he doesn't need to say anything.

    He never has. The Sax would have paid him every single time anyway! History has proven that...so WHY does he need to keep doing it?

    Is he the greatest Sox CHAMPION of all time? Without a doubt.

    How would anyone feel if he started standing up, and saying he was the best ever? I know how I would feel.

    LET the accolades come. LET the money come! It's worth so much more when it's freely given, and you didn't have to bring it up time and time again. When does anyone say he doesn't deserve respect? When does anyone say he doesn't deserve money? Only in response to his statements. His timing in the past has been atrocious. His timing now is perfect, for him. 

    It's not even hard to say the right thing. It's even easier to say nothing. 

    Had he said nothing last year, he'd be a free agent RIGHT NOW! I guess, in the end, it bit him in the a s s anyway. 

    My comparisons weren't the greatest. I still believe in the point I'm trying to make. Saying nothing, EVER, probably would have benefitted monetarily...he defenetly would have had an even greater legacy. Yes. Even Greater.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    Who does this guy think he is? A three time champion and local legend who just hit .600 in the World Series or something? 

    Oh yeah, he did do that. 

    There's such a thing as earning your right to be a diva.

    Papi could handle this kind of thing better (the "for my family" stuff is especially ridiculous, if he hasn't provided for his family by now he has a serious problem)

    But he has every right to ask for what he wants.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    p.s. Bill I'll remind you in July you were ready to hand the keys to the franchise from Papi to JBJ.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    I'm with BostonTroll and Moonslav on this one. Ortiz has meant more to the Red Sox than almost anyone else in the history of the franchise. He was the driving force behind three World Series Championships. He's been woefully underpaid relative to other players in the same clubhouse who produced at significantly lower levels. Frankly, all things considered, I'm amazed he hasn't whined more!

    This guy easily deserved a long-term contract at some point in his career and never got one. He's mostly been extended on a year to year basis. At no time has he ever asked for something overly extravagant. He's always been reasonable about annual salary, he's always been amenable to relatively short-term deals at below market dollars. The Red Sox could offer him a one year extension for 2015 at $16 million and he'd probably be satisfied.

    If ever a player deserved a multi-year contract with some degree of risk involved, it's David Ortiz. Of course there should be limits. Of course it shouldn't be anything too crazy. But when guys who are not nearly as good as Ortiz regularly get more years and more money (on his own team!), there's no legitimate excuse for not extending your best current player who also happens to be the most significant player in the last 50+ years of your franchise's history!

    I agree that Ortiz's agent should be doing the talking instead of Ortiz himself. However, that doesn't change the reality that Ortiz is absolutely right on this one. The Red Sox not making him a top priority is insulting. They take him for granted because they know they can get away with it. Instead of nickling and diming him, they should sign him to a lifetime contract already, with adequate protection for the team. Guarantee him $16 million in 2015. Add a team option for $12 million plus incentives in 2016 that becomes guaranteed with a certain number of plate appearances. Add perpetual team options after that at much lower base salaries with incentives that would keep the annual salary at around $16 million for as long as he produces at 2013 levels.

    Let him opt-out after the first of those perpetual team options, in case he's trapped into a deal that underpays him. (I doubt that would be the case, but it's theoretically possible). Include mention of some type of post-playing ambassadorial role with the team (for goodwill purposes more than anything else).

    It would be a win-win-win scenario for everyone. Ortiz gets his extension. The Red Sox don't overpay him for more than a year at most (which would be fine since they've vastly underpaid him throughout his tenure in Boston). The fans and media would respond well because player and team alike would generate good publicity by essentially wedding themselves to one another for life. This would also eliminate the risk of some other team like the Yankees swooping in and sullying the Ortiz/Red Sox legacy. Just make this happen, it could get done in a day or two.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    roy, joe, manny...all good points.

    I'm willing to amend my position.

    I'm not right.

    Here's the best way I can explain my basic issue; he doesn't need to say anything.

    He never has. The Sax would have paid him every single time anyway! History has proven that...so WHY does he need to keep doing it?

    Is he the greatest Sox CHAMPION of all time? Without a doubt.

    How would anyone feel if he started standing up, and saying he was the best ever? I know how I would feel.

    LET the accolades come. LET the money come! It's worth so much more when it's freely given, and you didn't have to bring it up time and time again. When does anyone say he doesn't deserve respect? When does anyone say he doesn't deserve money? Only in response to his statements. His timing in the past has been atrocious. His timing now is perfect, for him. 

    It's not even hard to say the right thing. It's even easier to say nothing. 

    Had he said nothing last year, he'd be a free agent RIGHT NOW! I guess, in the end, it bit him in the a s s anyway. 

    My comparisons weren't the greatest. I still believe in the point I'm trying to make. Saying nothing, EVER, probably would have benefitted monetarily...he defenetly would have had an even greater legacy. Yes. Even Greater.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's the way he is, period.

    The guy wears his heart on his sleeve, as evidenced by the rally after the bombings last year.

    I'd rather have a guy be honest, than be a flippin' robot and roll out the same tired cliche's, every time he's asked a question.

    I wish a lot of folks in my life would act differenty than they do sometimes.

    But, it's just the way they are. I get over it, without a day long rant.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to JIMMYPROFFER's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Iceman4's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Ortiz deserves an extension.....HOF

    [/QUOTE]

    Not sure about that, being a DH and the PEDs allegations may make it tough.

    [/QUOTE]


    interesting.  why is "allegation" plural?  i mean besides the NEW YORK times "source".?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to JIMMYPROFFER's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Iceman4's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Ortiz deserves an extension.....HOF

    [/QUOTE]

    Not sure about that, being a DH and the PEDs allegations may make it tough.

    [/QUOTE]


    interesting.  why is "allegation" plural?  i mean besides the NEW YORK times "source".?

    [/QUOTE]


    I could care less about the ped allegations.  The chain of custody for the testing in those days is questionable. In court once the chain of custody is shown broken, bye bye case.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    Ortiz talks a lot about getting respect..but he is not being respectful to the team or the front office when he chooses to conduct contract negotiations in the media..and when he makes passive aggressive remarks such as "I hope I'm not wearing a different uniform". Enough already.  I seem to remember reading over the summer that there was an agreement between the Red Sox and Ortiz that contract talks would not begin until the summer of 2014. If this is true then Ortiz is showing an incredibly amount of disrespect to the front office with his recent comments.

    Yes..he is a great DH..arguably one of the greatest. However he is also very well paid for what he does and the incentive based limited year contracts the Sox have offered him are more than fair. Ortiz has no qualms about referring to baseball as a business at the end of the day..and well..yes..it is a business. Sox fans love Ortiz..but there is no market for him beyond Fenway. None.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to miscricket's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Ortiz talks a lot about getting respect..but he is not being respectful to the team or the front office when he chooses to conduct contract negotiations in the media..and when he makes passive aggressive remarks such as "I hope I'm not wearing a different uniform". Enough already.  I seem to remember reading over the summer that there was an agreement between the Red Sox and Ortiz that contract talks would not begin until the summer of 2014. If this is true then Ortiz is showing an incredibly amount of disrespect to the front office with his recent comments.

    Yes..he is a great DH..arguably one of the greatest. However he is also very well paid for what he does and the incentive based limited year contracts the Sox have offered him are more than fair. Ortiz has no qualms about referring to baseball as a business at the end of the day..and well..yes..it is a business. Sox fans love Ortiz..but there is no market for him beyond Fenway. None.

    [/QUOTE]

    2013 regular season:  .309/30/103, .959 OPS

    2013 post-season:  .688 avg., 1.188 slugging,  1.948 OPS

     

    What was that about there being no market beyond Fenway?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    He's not talking extension...I was wrong.

    When this deal is over, he wants multiple years. Or, according to him, "Time to move on."

    I guess he means "move on...to retirement". No team will be giving a 39 year old multiple years. Not one of them.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: How many times does Ortiz have to do this...

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    He's not talking extension...I was wrong.

    When this deal is over, he wants multiple years. Or, according to him, "Time to move on."

    I guess he means "move on...to retirement". No team will be giving a 39 year old multiple years. Not one of them.

    [/QUOTE]

    Right.  That is why his desparation-fueled soundbite is a non-starter.  It affects nothing.  The Sox FO will not do anything.  He is not forcing anyones hand.  The only way to extend his career is to put up another amazing year and be the team leader.  His words are just out of petulant frustration that he is arguagbly hitting better than he ever has and he is too old to get anykind of security beyond a really rich year to year see-how-it-goes deal.

     

     
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