http://nesn.com/2012/11/report-marlins-wanted-will-middlebrooks-felix-doubront-xander-bogaerts-in-discussions-for-jose-reyes-josh-johnson/

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Interesting , if true.  Why would they ask for so much from us , then take much less ( apparently )  from Toronto ?  I think we could have negotiated from their original request.  This just sounds like another excuse to justify Ben's inaction.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from MikeNagy stilleatsworms. Show MikeNagy stilleatsworms's posts

    Did we make a counteroffer?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MikeNagy stilleatsworms. Show MikeNagy stilleatsworms's posts

    Did we make a counteroffer?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Softlawes. Show Softlawes's posts

    Can't blame them for calling the incompetent Cherry, who wasn't stupid enough. Instead, the art dealer got dumpster trash as his trade payment.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Softlawes. Show Softlawes's posts

    Can't blame them for calling the incompetent Cherry, who wasn't stupid enough. Instead, the art dealer got dumpster trash as his trade payment.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Softlawes. Show Softlawes's posts

    Can't blame them for calling the incompetent Cherry, who wasn't stupid enough. Instead, the art dealer got dumpster trash as his trade payment.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

    middlebrooks for johnson?  we need a pitcher, a quality one and unless you want to sign grienke, this is the only way were getting one - via trade....this may sound shocking to some of you red sox farm system fanboys but you actually have to give up something to get something in return....we have some decent hitting infield prospects - what we dont have for 2013 is q dominating pitcher...

    no one knows what went on in negotiations (isnt that what you guys told me about pap??) but we know the end result....We got Toronto's last place manager, they got some very good players, including a pitcher we COVETED.....Ben loses again...sorry




    You're absolutely right. BUT, I'm not giving up a 'prospect' who has shown major league ability for a guy who has serious health concerns. If Johnson had been healthy for 5 years, I'd do it. Him missing significant time in 2, and only going over 200 innings once makes me want to keep the prospect rather than deal him. And nobody knows if it would have been an even swap, I suspect not. I'm willing to bet the Marlins were asking for more than just Middlebrooks, or would have, just for Johnsons. When they were fielding offers at the deadline they were asking for WAY too much. The Jays gave them exactly that.




    I defintely agree the Sox will have to move one of their "cornerstone" propsects if the goal is a frontline pitcher, or have to move Middlebrooks.

     

    As unpopular of the idea of dealing Middlebrooks will be, am I the only one who thinks Cherington has not closed the door on the idea yet?  There has to be SOME reason Danny Valencia is still on the 40-man roster, while players like Lin and Olmstead removed from the organization.

     

    And Valencia certainly is not still around because of his trade value.   Teams looking to improve at 3B want to do so because they already have a player like Danny Valencia...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Repeated post, edited for your convenience...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    The Reyes contract was a really dumb contract.  Loria disposes of the worst years of the deal and everyone is calling him a thief and a demolition man.  The Sox divest themselves of their dumb contract (to Crawford) and extension (to Beckett) and everyone is hailing the Sox owners as genius.  There is a fine line here...

    Oh, and the Sox got rid of their best hitter and GG 1Bman in order to divest themselves of the two bad contracts, to boot.  What will the Sox do with all their savings?  What will the Marlins do with theirs?  I will not be surprised to see both teams sit on the savings and maximize profits.  The difference is that the Marlins draw very poorly even when they are a winning team.  The Sox pretend to never draw poorly, but do so only when they are dismal and completely out of the hunt.  It makes far less sense, both ethically and financially, for the Sox to sit on their savings, IMO.  So why is Loria the bad guy and Ben C, et al not?




    2 totally different situations par. The getting rid of the players is the same, but different.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    In response to georom4's comment:

    middlebrooks for johnson?  we need a pitcher, a quality one and unless you want to sign grienke, this is the only way were getting one - via trade....this may sound shocking to some of you red sox farm system fanboys but you actually have to give up something to get something in return....we have some decent hitting infield prospects - what we dont have for 2013 is q dominating pitcher...

    no one knows what went on in negotiations (isnt that what you guys told me about pap??) but we know the end result....We got Toronto's last place manager, they got some very good players, including a pitcher we COVETED.....Ben loses again...sorry




    Youd give up WMB for 1 year of oft injured JJ? please stop geo...Just stop. Who plays 3rd? Ciriaco? Valencia? It would be a dumb move if the Sox did that deal.

    Reyes at 34-35 making 22M? then buy him out for 4M in 2018? crazy...

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Listen everyone. If you hit "Add your post" and nothing seems to happen, just hit refresh and it will post. Dont hit the add your post button 100 times...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    In response to poprox13's comment:

    lol, and they settled for Torontos scrubs


    Toronto gave up a load of talent.

    The Blue Jay package of Jake Marisnick, Henderson Alvarez, Justin Nicolino, Adeiny Hechavarria, Yunel Escobar, Jeff Mathis and Anthony DeSchalfani was the rough equivalent of the Red Sox offering Will Middlebrooks, Felix Doubront, Matt Barnes, Jose Iglesias, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Sweeney and Miguel Pena.

    The 24-year-old Middlebrooks impressed this year in his 75-game MLB debut, but entered the 2012 season as Baseball America's 51st-ranked prospect. In contrast, outfielder Jack Marisnick entered the season as BA's 67th-ranked prospect. Their stocks headed is different directions this year but the 21-year-old Marisnick may have more room for development. Six distant years of Marisnick could approach the value of five immediate years of Middlebrooks.

    Compare the 2012 stats for Henderson Alvarez and Felix Doubront, who is 2 1/2 years older than Alvarez:

    Alvarez 31 GS, 187.1 IP, 4.85 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 88 ERA+

    Doubront 29 GS, 161 IP, 4.86 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 89 ERA+

    Twenty-year-old pitcher Justin Nicolino ranks 20th on John Sickels' recently released list of Top 50 pitching prospects. To provide perspective, 22-year-old Matt Barnes ranked 18th, 22-year-old Allen Webster 40th and 20-year-old Henry Owens 49th.

    Shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria has a decent glove and a better bat than Jose Iglesias, who is only nine months younger than the 23-year-old Hechavarria.

    Yunel Escobar, a 30-year-old shortstop who is owed $5 million next season in the final year of his contract, has career WAR of 18.7, including three seasons at 3.6 or above. Jarrod Saltalanmacchia is projected to earn $3.9 million in his final arbitration year but the 27-year-old catcher has been valued at only 3.9 WAR in his entire career.

    Catcher Jeff Mathis and outfielder Ryan Sweeney are known more for their defense skills than for their hitting. The 29-year-old Mathis, who posted 0.8 WAR in 71 games last season, is scheduled to earn $1.5 million in each of the next two years. The 27-year-old Sweeney, who posted a 0.7 WAR in 67 games last season, is projected to earn $1.8 million next season in his final arbitration year.

    Pitcher Anthony DeSchlafani is the rough righthanded equivalent of Red Sox pitching prospect Miguel Pena. They were taken three picks apart in the sixth round of the 2011 draft and posted good numbers at the Single A level this year.

    Entering the 2012 season, Baseball America ranked the Toronto farm system fifth and the Boston system ninth. The reported blockbuster trades should alter those rankings.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to poprox13's comment:

    lol, and they settled for Torontos scrubs



    Toronto gave up a load of talent.

     

    The Blue Jay package of Jake Marisnick, Henderson Alvarez, Justin Nicolino, Adeiny Hechavarria, Yunel Escobar, Jeff Mathis and Anthony DeSchalfani was the rough equivalent of the Red Sox offering Will Middlebrooks, Felix Doubront, Matt Barnes, Jose Iglesias, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Sweeney and Miguel Pena.

    The 24-year-old Middlebrooks impressed this year in his 75-game MLB debut, but entered the 2012 season as Baseball America's 51st-ranked prospect. In contrast, outfielder Jack Marisnick entered the season as BA's 67th-ranked prospect. Their stocks headed is different directions this year but the 21-year-old Marisnick may have more room for development. Six distant years of Marisnick could approach the value of five immediate years of Middlebrooks.

    Compare the 2012 stats for Henderson Alvarez and Felix Doubront, who is 2 1/2 years older than Alvarez:

    Alvarez 31 GS, 187.1 IP, 4.85 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 88 ERA+

    Doubront 29 GS, 161 IP, 4.86 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 89 ERA+

    Twenty-year-old pitcher Justin Nicolino ranks 20th on John Sickels' recently released list of Top 50 pitching prospects. To provide perspective, 22-year-old Matt Barnes ranked 18th, 22-year-old Allen Webster 40th and 20-year-old Henry Owens 49th.

    Shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria has a decent glove and a better bat than Jose Iglesias, who is only nine months younger than the 23-year-old Hechavarria.

    Yunel Escobar, a 30-year-old shortstop who is owed $5 million next season in the final year of his contract, has career WAR of 18.7, including three seasons at 3.6 or above. Jarrod Saltalanmacchia is projected to earn $3.9 million in his final arbitration year but the 27-year-old catcher has been valued at only 3.9 WAR in his entire career.

    Catcher Jeff Mathis and outfielder Ryan Sweeney are known more for their defense skills than for their hitting. The 29-year-old Mathis, who posted 0.8 WAR in 71 games last season, is scheduled to earn $1.5 million in each of the next two years. The 27-year-old Sweeney, who posted a 0.7 WAR in 67 games last season, is projected to earn $1.8 million next season in his final arbitration year.

    Pitcher Anthony DeSchlafani is the rough righthanded equivalent of Red Sox pitching prospect Miguel Pena. They were taken three picks apart in the sixth round of the 2011 draft and posted good numbers at the Single A level this year.

    Entering the 2012 season, Baseball America ranked the Toronto farm system fifth and the Boston system ninth. The reported blockbuster trades should alter those rankings.




    Toronto gave up a lot for what they received. To say otherwise is ridiculous..

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    No. I want to keep Middlebrooks at third, Felix did a good job this year and may be even better next year, and everyone is always falling all over themselves with praise for Bogaerts. It sounds like it would be like watching Bryce Harper playing for another team when he could have been ours.

    And didn't Reyes throw his glove on the field and fold his arms during a game because he didn't like the call that was made? Yeah, that would really work here.

    FTR I don't want anyone from the Marlins since they are all probably suffering from PTSD after having played under Ozzie Guillen. We don't have to worry about that on the Sox because Bobby already got rid of all the players that were stressed out by him.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Hasn't Georom spent a lot of time and space here bashing the Reddick/Bailey trade as a blunder on Cherington's part? Forget for a moment what you know from hindsight (namely, that Reddick had a breakout season while Bailey sat on the DL) and what you had at the time was a swap of an outfield prospect who hadn't yet shown he could hit consistently in MLB for a young, established All-Star closer (along with other moving parts). Sounds like precisely the kind of trade Geo is demanding. Sure, Bailey had an injury history - but so does Josh Johnson.

    Or, how many times have we heard around here that we should never have traded Hanley Ramirez for Josh Beckett? What if Xander Bogaerts was to turn into the next Hanley (or better), while Johnson became our new Beckett - certainly capable of brilliance, but also frequently injured and hence impossible to forecast? Would Georom and others relinquish any future rights to criticize such a trade in hindsight, because obviously it's a no-brainer to trade young prospects for star veterans?

    No one here is saying you never trade prospects...but whether Middlebrooks, Doubront, and Bogaerts (two of whom, mind you, have already proven valuable at the major league level, and the third is a potential future franchise player) would be too much to give up in a trade like this is a pretty legitimate argument.

     

    (Also, please don't call me a "bootlicker" or anything similar. I don't know whether Cherington will be a good GM or not, but in my mind, the jury is still out...this is the first offseason where he has the flexibility to really shape the team the way he wants to, and I'm curious to see what he does. In addition, I just don't have much patience with posters who open MLBtraderumors in the second week of November and don't see that the Red Sox have traded for an ace yet, and therefore assume that the GM, whoever it is, is doing nothing but sitting on his azz. We had a lot of these types of complaints two years ago in November, as I recall, and when December rolled around Theo went out and got Adrian Gonzalez and Carl Crawford. Give it a few weeks. If come spring training there are still gaping holes in the lineup and the pitching staff has not been upgraded, then your complaints will hold a lot more water.)

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    Hasn't Georom spent a lot of time and space here bashing the Reddick/Bailey trade as a blunder on Cherington's part? Forget for a moment what you know from hindsight (namely, that Reddick had a breakout season while Bailey sat on the DL) and what you had at the time was a swap of an outfield prospect who hadn't yet shown he could hit consistently in MLB for a young, established All-Star closer (along with other moving parts). Sounds like precisely the kind of trade Geo is demanding. Sure, Bailey had an injury history - but so does Josh Johnson.

    Or, how many times have we heard around here that we should never have traded Hanley Ramirez for Josh Beckett? What if Xander Bogaerts was to turn into the next Hanley (or better), while Johnson became our new Beckett - certainly capable of brilliance, but also frequently injured and hence impossible to forecast? Would Georom and others relinquish any future rights to criticize such a trade in hindsight, because obviously it's a no-brainer to trade young prospects for star veterans?

    No one here is saying you never trade prospects...but whether Middlebrooks, Doubront, and Bogaerts (two of whom, mind you, have already proven valuable at the major league level, and the third is a potential future franchise player) would be too much to give up in a trade like this is a pretty legitimate argument.

     

    (Also, please don't call me a "bootlicker" or anything similar. I don't know whether Cherington will be a good GM or not...but in my mind, this is the first offseason where he has the flexibility to really shape the team the way he wants to, and I'm curious to see what he does; and I just don't have much patience with posters who open MLBtraderumors in the second week of November and don't see that the Red Sox had traded for an ace yet, and therefore assume that the GM, whoever it is, is doing nothing but sitting on his azz. We had a lot of these types of complaints two years ago in November, as I recall, and when December rolled around Theo went out and got Adrian Gonzalez and Carl Crawford. Give it a few weeks. If come spring training there are still gaping holes in the lineup and the pitching staff has not been upgraded, then your complaints will hold a lot more water.)



    Amen...

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Dammit!

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    WITH CORRECTIONS (the edit function is not working)

    In response to poprox13's comment:

    lol, and they settled for Torontos scrubs

    Toronto gave up a load of talent.

    The Blue Jay package of Jake Marisnick, Henderson Alvarez, Justin Nicolino, Adeiny Hechavarria, Yunel Escobar, Jeff Mathis and Anthony DeSchalfani was the rough equivalent of the Red Sox offering Will Middlebrooks, Felix Doubront, Matt Barnes, Jose Iglesias, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Sweeney and Miguel Pena.

    The 24-year-old Middlebrooks impressed this year in his 75-game MLB debut, but entered the 2012 season as Baseball America's 51st-ranked prospect. In contrast, outfielder Jack Marisnick entered the season as BA's 67th-ranked prospect. Their stocks headed is different directions this year but the 21-year-old Marisnick may have more room for development. Six distant years of Marisnick could approach the value of six immediate years of Middlebrooks.

    Compare the 2012 stats for Henderson Alvarez and Felix Doubront, who is 2 1/2 years older than Alvarez:

    Alvarez 31 GS, 187.1 IP, 4.85 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 88 ERA+

    Doubront 29 GS, 161 IP, 4.86 ERA, 1.45 WHIP, 89 ERA+

    Twenty-year-old pitcher Justin Nicolino ranks 20th on John Sickels' recently released list of Top 50 pitching prospects. To provide perspective, 22-year-old Matt Barnes ranked 18th, 22-year-old Allen Webster 40th and 20-year-old Henry Owens 49th.

    Shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria has a decent glove and a better bat than Jose Iglesias, who is only nine months younger than the 23-year-old Hechavarria.

    Yunel Escobar, a 30-year-old shortstop who is owed $5 million next season in the final year of his contract, has career WAR of 18.7, including three seasons at 3.6 or above. Jarrod Saltalanmacchia is projected to earn $3.9 million in his final arbitration year but the 27-year-old catcher has been valued at only 3.9 WAR in his entire career.

    Catcher Jeff Mathis and outfielder Ryan Sweeney are known more for their defense skills than for their hitting. The 29-year-old Mathis, who posted 0.8 WAR in 71 games last season, is scheduled to earn $1.5 million in each of the next two years. The 27-year-old Sweeney, who posted a 0.7 WAR in 67 games last season, is projected to earn $1.8 million next season in his final arbitration year.

    Pitcher Anthony DeSchlafani is the rough righthanded equivalent of Red Sox pitching prospect Miguel Pena. They were taken three picks apart in the sixth round of the 2011 draft and posted good numbers at the Single A level this year.

    Entering the 2012 season, Baseball America ranked the Toronto farm system fifth and the Boston system ninth. The reported blockbuster trades should alter those rankings.

    The venerable notin has made many of the same comps.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    Hasn't Georom spent a lot of time and space here bashing the Reddick/Bailey trade as a blunder on Cherington's part? Forget for a moment what you know from hindsight (namely, that Reddick had a breakout season while Bailey sat on the DL) and what you had at the time was a swap of an outfield prospect who hadn't yet shown he could hit consistently in MLB for a young, established All-Star closer (along with other moving parts). Sounds like precisely the kind of trade Geo is demanding. Sure, Bailey had an injury history - but so does Josh Johnson.

    Or, how many times have we heard around here that we should never have traded Hanley Ramirez for Josh Beckett? What if Xander Bogaerts was to turn into the next Hanley (or better), while Johnson became our new Beckett - certainly capable of brilliance, but also frequently injured and hence impossible to forecast? Would Georom and others relinquish any future rights to criticize such a trade in hindsight, because obviously it's a no-brainer to trade young prospects for star veterans?

    No one here is saying you never trade prospects...but whether Middlebrooks, Doubront, and Bogaerts (two of whom, mind you, have already proven valuable at the major league level, and the third is a potential future franchise player) would be too much to give up in a trade like this is a pretty legitimate argument.

     

    (Also, please don't call me a "bootlicker" or anything similar. I don't know whether Cherington will be a good GM or not...but in my mind, this is the first offseason where he has the flexibility to really shape the team the way he wants to, and I'm curious to see what he does; and I just don't have much patience with posters who open MLBtraderumors in the second week of November and don't see that the Red Sox had traded for an ace yet, and therefore assume that the GM, whoever it is, is doing nothing but sitting on his azz. We had a lot of these types of complaints two years ago in November, as I recall, and when December rolled around Theo went out and got Adrian Gonzalez and Carl Crawford. Give it a few weeks. If come spring training there are still gaping holes in the lineup and the pitching staff has not been upgraded, then your complaints will hold a lot more water.)



    Amen...




    I second that

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    In response to ThefourBs's comment:

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    The Reyes contract was a really dumb contract.  Loria disposes of the worst years of the deal and everyone is calling him a thief and a demolition man.  The Sox divest themselves of their dumb contract (to Crawford) and extension (to Beckett) and everyone is hailing the Sox owners as genius.  There is a fine line here...

    Oh, and the Sox got rid of their best hitter and GG 1Bman in order to divest themselves of the two bad contracts, to boot.  What will the Sox do with all their savings?  What will the Marlins do with theirs?  I will not be surprised to see both teams sit on the savings and maximize profits.  The difference is that the Marlins draw very poorly even when they are a winning team.  The Sox pretend to never draw poorly, but do so only when they are dismal and completely out of the hunt.  It makes far less sense, both ethically and financially, for the Sox to sit on their savings, IMO.  So why is Loria the bad guy and Ben C, et al not?



    The reason why no one batted an eye when the Sox unloaded their contracts was because the entire baseball world (except for a few individuals here) expect the Sox to rein vest the money they saved, not pocket it all.

    No one thinks Loria is going to reinvest it.


    Definitely agree with you.  The Red Sox will sign some players to replace Beckett and Gonzalez and probably spend a considerable amount of money in the offseason.  I just  expect them to try to avoid long-term contracts in the future.  As I already posted on another thread about the Marlins, they shouldn't have any baseball franchises in Florida.  Both of them don't have a large fan base and should relocate both teams to areas of the country where they have sports fans that would support a baseball franchise. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    In response to ThefourBs's comment:

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    The Reyes contract was a really dumb contract.  Loria disposes of the worst years of the deal and everyone is calling him a thief and a demolition man.  The Sox divest themselves of their dumb contract (to Crawford) and extension (to Beckett) and everyone is hailing the Sox owners as genius.  There is a fine line here...

    Oh, and the Sox got rid of their best hitter and GG 1Bman in order to divest themselves of the two bad contracts, to boot.  What will the Sox do with all their savings?  What will the Marlins do with theirs?  I will not be surprised to see both teams sit on the savings and maximize profits.  The difference is that the Marlins draw very poorly even when they are a winning team.  The Sox pretend to never draw poorly, but do so only when they are dismal and completely out of the hunt.  It makes far less sense, both ethically and financially, for the Sox to sit on their savings, IMO.  So why is Loria the bad guy and Ben C, et al not?



    The reason why no one batted an eye when the Sox unloaded their contracts was because the entire baseball world (except for a few individuals here) expect the Sox to rein vest the money they saved, not pocket it all.

    No one thinks Loria is going to reinvest it.


    Definitely agree with you.  The Red Sox will sign some players to replace Beckett and Gonzalez and probably spend a considerable amount of money in the offseason.  I just  expect them to try to avoid long-term contracts in the future.  As I already posted on another thread about the Marlins, they shouldn't have any baseball franchises in Florida.  Both of them don't have a large fan base and should relocate both teams to areas of the country where they have sports fans that would support a baseball franchise. 

     
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