I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200 : Exactly, Franc-Bona "the gum chewing Bone Head" doesn't want his fishing/drinking buddy to start crying after all - Way Back Wakefield has no idea when to quit. He obviously has no life because he just loves spending his summers getting the HELL beat out of him by opposing teams, and helping the RED SOX collapse like wet cardboard containers. Every year this crap hole team never has enough pitching because they have to use this BUM as a dirty homeless shelter mens room mop, as they limp into the play-offs beaten again by the Yankees and the two old fools they have resurrected from the Grave Yard.
    Posted by xfiles45[/QUOTE]

    Of course you are referring to Terry Francona..the manager who has one 2 world series in the last8 years right? How dumb can you be?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

     Indirectly he has helped the starting pitching staff immeasurably by giving players a unique look
     sandwiched in between "normal pitchers."

    Good point. From my recollection, the Sox are 15-3 in games after Wake starts. He often "saves" the pen by going deep and allows Tito to use the best relievers the day after he starts. He might also knock hitters off stride somewhat for the starter who goes the next day..
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    How many games have the Sox won in all of Miller's starts? 

    Wakefield is like a postal union worker in an electronic age.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    By that faulty reasoning, Wake (11-7) is better than Lester (13-10). Go ahead and move your balsawood goalposts again.

    Try picking one stat and sticking to it. You've gone from BB/9 to CS% to WHIP to ERA to ERA from 2010 to 2011 and now team winning percent. All are faulty in isolation, and some you didn't even bother to look up the results before spewing bigoted hatred and data misinformation.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE] Indirectly he has helped the starting pitching staff immeasurably by giving players a unique look  sandwiched in between "normal pitchers." Good point. From my recollection, the Sox are 15-3 in games after Wake starts. He often "saves" the pen by going deep and allows Tito to use the best relievers the day after he starts. He might also knock hitters off stride somewhat for the starter who goes the next day..
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Same held true last year.

    I do think it's interesting that Softy sees Wake as a player out of his time, yet politically, his nostalgia is suffocating. A posting contradiction.


     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]Tim Wakefield, Lost 5 games (since his last win) Jul 29 - White Sox 7.0 innings, 3R, 3ER, 3H, 2BB, 1HR Aug 3 - Indians 6.2 Innings, 3R, 3ER, 5H, 2BB, 1HR Aug 08 - Twins 7.0, 5R, 3ER, 8H, 0BB, 1HR Aug 14 - Mariners 8.0, 5R, 4ER, 9H, 2BB, 1HR Aug 20 - Royals 5.1, 4R, 4ER, 9H, 0BB, 0HR Last night was simply not a good game for him.  But looking at the last 5...  You can seriously say he has not given the team multiple chances to win?
    Posted by HankukSox[/QUOTE]

    Wonder why nobody has challenged this post. Probably because you can't argue facts.

    In those last five starts, Wakefield has averaged 6 2/3 IP, 7 H, and 3.4 ER. He's done more than enough to keep the Sox in the game. It's stunning that so many who claim to be Red Sox fans cannot see this.

    Again, this was not supposed to be Wakefield's role. But Buchholz remains on the DL and Matsuzaka is ... who knows where.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200 : Wonder why nobody has challenged this post. Probably because you can't argue facts. In those last five starts, Wakefield has averaged 6 2/3 IP, 7 H, and 3.5 ER. He's done more than enough to keep the Sox in the game. It's stunning that so many who claim to be Red Sox fans cannot see this. Again, this was not supposed to be Wakefield's role. But Buchholz remains on the DL and Matsuzaka is ... who knows where.
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]

    He's Softy's caddy. And his only action.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    Because I'm a night owl, nobody's playing this late, and I'm constantly amazed by these ignorant anti-Wakefield threads, here are the stats for Wake, Lester, Beckett and Lackey over the last five starts (with averages in parentheses).

    Wake: 34 IP (6.8), 17 ER (3.4), 34 H (6.8), 6 BB (1.2) ... ERA 4.50.
    Lester: 35 IP (7.0), 11 ER (2.2), 27 H (5.4), 13 BB (2.6) ... ERA 2.82
    Beckett: 31 IP (6.2), 14 ER (2.8), 32 H (6.4), 6 BB (1.2) ... ERA 4.06.
    Lackey: 31 IP (6.2),  18 ER (3.6), 41 H (8.2), 8 BB (1.6) ... ERA 5.23

    Lester's numbers are superior, but Wake's are pretty similar to Beckett's and far better than Lackey's.

     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    From my recollection, the Sox are 15-3 in games after Wake starts.

    From your recollection, could that record have something to do with the fact Wakefield isn't pitching in those games?

    I'm quite sure that this is not cause and effect.


     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    The ironic thing is that if Dice K hadn't gimped up and become useless, Dice would be the one blowing these games not Wakefield and instead of Softy piling onto Wake he would be rabidly defending Dice K's similarly mediocre starts and playing the race card on anyone who dared criticize the mediocrity.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200 :
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon, you get upset with anyone "including myself" thats suggests there could be feasible replacements for both Tek and Wake in the near future, not just those who call for a resignation.  Thats the part I really don't agree with in most cases.  Since coming to the board I have given credit to both players for their contributions to the team but at least entertain the fact they really don't have any outstanding skills at this point that couldn't be matched by others.

    Tek calls a very good game and has done a great job mentoring Salty but at some point the "game calling and experience" just simply won't be enough.  Thats baseball, every good vet faces this at some point so the fans should as well.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]The ironic thing is that if Dice K hadn't gimped up and become useless, Dice would be the one blowing these games not Wakefield and instead of Softy piling onto Wake he would be rabidly defending Dice K's similarly mediocre starts and playing the race card on anyone who dared criticize the mediocrity.
    Posted by BostonTrollSpanker[/QUOTE]

    It is unfortunate that we don't have Dice-K this year.  He might have had a great season this year and won quite a few games. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from PawsoxPhil. Show PawsoxPhil's posts

    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200 : Wonder why nobody has challenged this post. Probably because you can't argue facts. In those last five starts, Wakefield has averaged 6 2/3 IP, 7 H, and 3.4 ER. He's done more than enough to keep the Sox in the game. It's stunning that so many who claim to be Red Sox fans cannot see this. Again, this was not supposed to be Wakefield's role. But Buchholz remains on the DL and Matsuzaka is ... who knows where.
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]

    Not a night owl since it was 9 pm in LA when you posted this.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]Not exactly stellar relief job by Albers/Morales, so in your fans hate (i mean haste, but sounds more like hate for the veteran) you forget that Tim actually left with the lead, and had thrown 5 strong innings, but hey rip Wakefield that's what you morons are best at doing. Rip the guys who do well, then rip the manager, but don't rip the 2 relievers who gave up not only the lead, but probably the game.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Yes, and don't forget that Scutaro should have made the play on that ball hit to his left. Plus Reddick let one get hit over his head which shor-hopped the wall, playing much too shallow IMO.
    In hindsight, Francona should have left Tim in.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    No., troll, you would be carping about how Wakefields higher ERA is still better pitching because good ole boy is "eating innings".
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200 : Not a night owl since it was 9 pm in LA when you posted this.
    Posted by PawsoxPhil[/QUOTE]
    I'm sure it was. But you see, we folks in the East are three hours ahead. Here, this should help ...

    http://www.timezonecheck.com/
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]Next outing for Wakefield is later this month when the Sox goes to Texas.  You can put that in the books as a loss since the Rangers absolutely beat hell out of him down there.  But might as well give him the start since we wouldnt want hurt his feelings. 
    Posted by fenwayjack2[/QUOTE]

    He's been taken out of the Texas series and pushed back to Friday against the A's.

     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200 : He's Softy's caddy. And his only action.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Speaking of softy: he was the guy who said Wake would "break down after 4 or 5 starts", but instead it was the young kid (Buch) and softy's #1 defendee, Dice-K who went down with injuries.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    moon, you get upset with anyone "including myself" thats suggests there could be feasible replacements for both Tek and Wake in the near future, not just those who call for a resignation.

    craze4sox, I have never argued with anyone wanting to replace Wake or VTek with a better player. I have repeatedly asked those posters who say Wake has "held back" prospects from "getting a chance" to name the names of those kids. The fact is there isn't any. Doubront was hurt earlier in the year, and now he is struggling in AAA. Miller was horrible in AAA earlier this year and after improving, got his shot. Weiland was rushed out of an emergency situation and had a short sample that was not too impressive. 

    If you mean "near future" as this season, I don't see any feasible option to Wake. I do not think Miller is a better option, but I don't get "upset" with those who like him better. I disagree with them, and think the numbers back me up that Wake has pitched better than Miller this year. What upsets me is when people make statements that are not based in fact or data. One poster here has run up a long list of criticisms of Wake that were just plain fabrications. I called him out on each and every fraudulent point. I'd do the same if someone said Wake deserves the Cy Young. I'd show how wrong that poster is as well.

    As for VTek, I happen to think many posters here discount his value as a "game caller" and other "catcher relevant" issues. It's not all about hitting, and even if you do look at the hitting, VTek has about a .100 point OPS advantage vs LHPs over Salty. The team continously wins more when he catches. Even if you take away his starts with Beckett, he has a higher winning % than Salty. This is not a fluke. It is not "voodoo" as the silly cloiwn called it. It has been a trend that has occured for 10 straight years. 

    Up until now (with Lavarnway), there really hasn't been another in system alternative to VTek as the co-catcher. If there is a catcher out there on another team that calls a great game, and we can get him at a low cost, I'd have no problem letting VTek walk. I have yet to hear anyone name a name or a possible trade package to get someone else. As for Lavarnway, my position is that as of right now, he is best used as a DH. I do not think it is logical to risk a ballooned team ERA by using Lavarnway as a catcher a significant amount of time in the near future. I can understand people wanting Lavarnway to take VTek's place. It doesn't upset me that they feel this way, but I would like them to be here defending their position when our ERA goes up, we lose more games, even though Lavarnway may hit 100 points higher than VTek. My guess is they won't admit the switch from VTek to Lavarnway is the reason.

    It's a predictable as anything in baseball. It's not just a Red Sox phenomena. A lot of research has been done on this issue. The Angels had one of the best hitting catchers in MLB for several years (Napoli) and one of the worst hitting catchers in MLB (Mathis) on the same team. Guess what, the pitchers did much better when Mathis caught (year after year), and the team won way more with Mathis playing. The same has been true with other teams. The Yanks have won more with anyone but Posada at catcher for a vast majority of the years he has been hitting like a madman with them. VMart hit great with Cleveland and Boston, but the pitchers did better when he wasn't catching, and the team won more with someone else catching  

      Thats the part I really don't agree with in most cases.  Since coming to the board I have given credit to both players for their contributions to the team but at least entertain the fact they really don't have any outstanding skills at this point that couldn't be matched by others

    I agree, there are probably are many better hitting catchers than VTek and better pitchers than Wake. I will disagree if you say there are many catchers who can match VTek's "game calling" skills. I will disagree if you say there are easy-to-obtain pitchers out there that are better than Wake.

    VTek is our back-up catcher (or 40% co-catcher). Are there better catchers than him in MLB? Yes, of course. Are they easy to get? Hell no! Can we risk this expensive pitching staff on someone who has a poor record of game calling and catcher relevant areas? I think not. (By the way, VTek may be a poor hitter, but I think people need to realize that the catching position is not loaded with good hitters. As bad as VTek is, he still has the 16th best catcher OPS in MLb this year. I repeat, this guy is our BACK-UP CATCHER and he is the 16th BEST HITTING CATCHER IN MLB this year, and yet, poster, including yourself, choose him as a target a high need area of for replacement. 

    Wake was our 6th starter this year. I have painstekenly showed comparative data to other starters in MLB, comparative data to other Sox starters, and gamelogs, WHIP, QS%, BB/9, CS%, and much much more to show that Wake has pitched more like an average 3rd to 4th MLB starter this year. In terms of IP/GS, WHIP, CS%, and BB/9, he is even better. Again, it puzzles me that so many posters choose another guy who is overachieving to choose as one of the few most important players in need of replacement. He's cheap. He's consistent. He's putting the team in a position to win over and over and over again... as a 6th STARTER!!!!!!

    Tek calls a very good game and has done a great job mentoring Salty but at some point the "game calling and experience" just simply won't be enough.  Thats baseball, every good vet faces this at some point so the fans should as well

    I'm curious about why during this year, you think the 16th best MLB hitting catcher who has a near unparalleled record of getting the very best out of every pitcher he has ever caught, is now ready to be replaced. It's not all about looking at a player's age. Wake and VTek have already proven they can produce at ages long considered past prime. 

    I wanted Theo to get a top 3rd starter type this deadline. I was happy he got Bedard, but wanted better. I'd have been happy if Theo got a great starter and Bedard thereby moving Wake to the pen. It didn't happen, because the cost was too high.

    Now it's between VTek and Lavarnway and Wake vs Miller. I have stated my opinions and welcome yours and others. I'm not upset at anyone who thinks Miller and Lavarnway are better options. I will be upset if Tito/Theo make a change without improving the team, and I'll be upset with posters who deny the truth after the fact...such as when our staff gets worse when Lavarnway catcges, or if Miller shows further inconsistencies and we start losing games he starts at a higher rate than when Wake started. I get the feeling, other excuses will be used. 

     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200 : Speaking of softy: he was the guy who said Wake would "break down after 4 or 5 starts", but instead it was the young kid (Buch) and softy's #1 defendee, Dice-K who went down with injuries.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    Of course, you can't find the post anymore because that was about 29 aliases ago.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]moon, you get upset with anyone "including myself" thats suggests there could be feasible replacements for both Tek and Wake in the near future, not just those who call for a resignation. craze4sox, I have never argued with anyone wanting to replace Wake or VTek with a better player. I have repeatedly asked those posters who say Wake has "held back" prospects from "getting a chance" to name the names of those kids. The fact is there isn't any. Doubront was hurt earlier in the year, and now he is struggling in AAA. Miller was horrible in AAA earlier this year and after improving, got his shot. Weiland was rushed out of an emergency situation and had a short sample that was not too impressive.  If you mean "near future" as this season, I don't see any feasible option to Wake. I do not think Miller is a better option, but I don't get "upset" with those who like him better. I disagree with them, and think the numbers back me up that Wake has pitched better than Miller this year. What upsets me is when people make statements that are not based in fact or data. One poster here has run up a long list of criticisms of Wake that were just plain fabrications. I called him out on each and every fraudulent point. I'd do the same if someone said Wake deserves the Cy Young. I'd show how wrong that poster is as well. As for VTek, I happen to think many posters here discount his value as a "game caller" and other "catcher relevant" issues. It's not all about hitting, and even if you do look at the hitting, VTek has about a .100 point OPS advantage vs LHPs over Salty. The team continously wins more when he catches. Even if you take away his starts with Beckett, he has a higher winning % than Salty. This is not a fluke. It is not "voodoo" as the silly cloiwn called it. It has been a trend that has occured for 10 straight years.  Up until now (with Lavarnway), there really hasn't been another in system alternative to VTek as the co-catcher. If there is a catcher out there on another team that calls a great game, and we can get him at a low cost, I'd have no problem letting VTek walk. I have yet to hear anyone name a name or a possible trade package to get someone else. As for Lavarnway, my position is that as of right now, he is best used as a DH. I do not think it is logical to risk a ballooned team ERA by using Lavarnway as a catcher a significant amount of time in the near future. I can understand people wanting Lavarnway to take VTek's place. It doesn't upset me that they feel this way, but I would like them to be here defending their position when our ERA goes up, we lose more games, even though Lavarnway may hit 100 points higher than VTek. My guess is they won't admit the switch from VTek to Lavarnway is the reason. It's a predictable as anything in baseball. It's not just a Red Sox phenomena. A lot of research has been done on this issue. The Angels had one of the best hitting catchers in MLB for several years (Napoli) and one of the worst hitting catchers in MLB (Mathis) on the same team. Guess what, the pitchers did much better when Mathis caught (year after year), and the team won way more with Mathis playing. The same has been true with other teams. The Yanks have won more with anyone but Posada at catcher for a vast majority of the years he has been hitting like a madman with them. VMart hit great with Cleveland and Boston, but the pitchers did better when he wasn't catching, and the team won more with someone else catching     Thats the part I really don't agree with in most cases.  Since coming to the board I have given credit to both players for their contributions to the team but at least entertain the fact they really don't have any outstanding skills at this point that couldn't be matched by others I agree, there are probably are many better hitting catchers than VTek and better pitchers than Wake. I will disagree if you say there are many catchers who can match VTek's "game calling" skills. I will disagree if you say there are easy-to-obtain pitchers out there that are better than Wake. VTek is our back-up catcher (or 40% co-catcher). Are there better catchers than him in MLB? Yes, of course. Are they easy to get? Hell no! Can we risk this expensive pitching staff on someone who has a poor record of game calling and catcher relevant areas? I think not. (By the way, VTek may be a poor hitter, but I think people need to realize that the catching position is not loaded with good hitters. As bad as VTek is, he still has the 16th best catcher OPS in MLb this year. I repeat, this guy is our BACK-UP CATCHER and he is the 16th BEST HITTING CATCHER IN MLB this year, and yet, poster, including yourself, choose him as a target a high need area of for replacement.  Wake was our 6th starter this year. I have painstekenly showed comparative data to other starters in MLB, comparative data to other Sox starters, and gamelogs, WHIP, QS%, BB/9, CS%, and much much more to show that Wake has pitched more like an average 3rd to 4th MLB starter this year. In terms of IP/GS, WHIP, CS%, and BB/9, he is even better. Again, it puzzles me that so many posters choose another guy who is overachieving to choose as one of the few most important players in need of replacement. He's cheap. He's consistent. He's putting the team in a position to win over and over and over again... as a 6th STARTER!!!!!! Tek calls a very good game and has done a great job mentoring Salty but at some point the "game calling and experience" just simply won't be enough.  Thats baseball, every good vet faces this at some point so the fans should as well I'm curious about why during this year, you think the 16th best MLB hitting catcher who has a near unparalleled record of getting the very best out of every pitcher he has ever caught, is now ready to be replaced. It's not all about looking at a player's age. Wake and VTek have already proven they can produce at ages long considered past prime.  I wanted Theo to get a top 3rd starter type this deadline. I was happy he got Bedard, but wanted better. I'd have been happy if Theo got a great starter and Bedard thereby moving Wake to the pen. It didn't happen, because the cost was too high. Now it's between VTek and Lavarnway and Wake vs Miller. I have stated my opinions and welcome yours and others. I'm not upset at anyone who thinks Miller and Lavarnway are better options. I will be upset if Tito/Theo make a change without improving the team, and I'll be upset with posters who deny the truth after the fact...such as when our staff gets worse when Lavarnway catcges, or if Miller shows further inconsistencies and we start losing games he starts at a higher rate than when Wake started. I get the feeling, other excuses will be used. 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Gritty post, wasted on one who'll never fully comprehend it.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    Bedard threw a great game tonight, he was battling and then his night ended on a 3-run homer. In other words, similar to a Wakefield start, but because people like finesse lefties and don't like 45-year-old knuckleballers, no matter what the outing by Bedard goes down as a solid one, but any same type by Wakefield goes down as another bomb allowed by the whiffle ball pitcher. All in the perception, not in the performance. That's the Sox Forum for you.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    In Response to Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200:
    [QUOTE]Bedard threw a great game tonight, he was battling and then his night ended on a 3-run homer. In other words, similar to a Wakefield start, but because people like finesse lefties and don't like 45-year-old knuckleballers, no matter what the outing by Bedard goes down as a solid one, but any same type by Wakefield goes down as another bomb allowed by the whiffle ball pitcher. All in the perception, not in the performance. That's the Sox Forum for you.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]


    I count on this each winter.
     
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    Re: I Hope Wakefield Never Reaches #200

    The thing with Wake is he's been here too long. We've seen his act too many times. Not his fault it just happens. People once felt this same way about Willie and Hank, they both stayed too long. After a while the negative images outweigh the positive ones. He pitches into the 5th or 6th and bam it happens. Out of no where two hits a passed ball and a homer. 

    He's like an old friend. You love'm, treat him kind, you wish him well. He goes five strong innings and you think wow Wakes back. Next inning he falls apart and the games is over another day another loss. He's not the same Wake anymore. We, including him, all need a rest. 

    Either way, may God Bless Wake.     
     

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