I still like Garza in our rotation

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    Maybe you are thinking of Gavin Floyd. 2 winters ago, I mentioned 10 different trade offers for him, some including Middlebrooks.

     

    This winter, I barely mentioned him either. His contract is almost done.

    I seriously never remember mentioning Danks in anyway. I always thought of him as pretty untouchable.

    You can still

    Danks has been hurt and never part of any trade rumors.

     



    Thats it my bad, right team wrong pitcher sorry.  I just think we need someone who has been battle tested in the AL East who has come up with some big wins.  He is also under 30 and my bet is he would be one of our best and more consistent starters.

     

    Just my opinion!  I could be wrong

     

    I do like Garza, but think his cost in prospects would overshadow the gain, especially since he is a FA after this year. Maybe we could get a draft pick after a QO and a walk, so that adds some value.

    I'm just not sure Garza will pitch better than Doubront, and unless we trade or bench Lester or Buch stays hurt, how else can he start for us? The possible upgrade from Doubront to Garza is not that much.

    I could be wrong too.

    Sox4ever

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    Garza would be a great addition, but at what cost?  He figures to be the best SP moved at the deadline.   Lee isn't going anywhere IMO.

     

    The potential widespread interest in Garza might price him out of the Sox plans.  I wouldn't worry about the rotation spot however.  That will sort itself out somehow..

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    go Lee/big or go home...we dont need another 3/4 starter

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to notin's comment:

    Garza would be a great addition, but at what cost?  He figures to be the best SP moved at the deadline.   Lee isn't going anywhere IMO.

     

    The potential widespread interest in Garza might price him out of the Sox plans.  I wouldn't worry about the rotation spot however.  That will sort itself out somehow..

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein



    Do you really see garza as a big upgrade over Lester (assuming he regains some composure) or Doubront?

    The bigger question is, do you think the cost to get him as a 2 month rental will outweigh that possible upgrade?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    By the time Buchholz gets back, someone else will be hurt.  This happens every year.  There is no need to worry about who gets replaced.

     

    Price for the rental is the main issue.  Certain names are untouchable.  But guys like Brentz, Workman, Britton, Coyle, Alamanzar, de la Cruz, Jacobs and Betts are all expendable.    Some combination with 2 or 3 of them won't kill the future.  

     

    It is certainly a beatable offer.  But teams can be hesitant to go too high for rentals, especially with no more draft compensation...

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    If you really want to contend you pay the price and go after Cliff Lee.

     



    Commit 25 Million a year, for several years to a guy in his late 30's when we have 3-4 guys in our system who can be as good to better than him going forward?!?!?!?

     

    I'm sorry I know Lee is good, but for how much longer and at what cost? and even then that doesn't gurantee victory (just ask texas, and those teams were better) 

    I only make that trade if I get significant money coming our way, or they accept fringe prospects. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Lee is 34 years old. He will be 35 at the end of August.

    He is owed $25m for both 2014 and 2015

    He has a vesting option for 2016 based on innings pitched in 2015 (200) or 2014/2015 combined (400)

    He has a buy out clause for 2016 of $12.5

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to notin's comment:

    By the time Buchholz gets back, someone else will be hurt.  This happens every year.  There is no need to worry about who gets replaced.

     

    Price for the rental is the main issue.  Certain names are untouchable.  But guys like Brentz, Workman, Britton, Coyle, Alamanzar, de la Cruz, Jacobs and Betts are all expendable.    Some combination with 2 or 3 of them won't kill the future.  

     

    It is certainly a beatable offer.  But teams can be hesitant to go too high for rentals, especially with no more draft compensation...

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein




    I would not include Brentz in a deal...

    I would think the Cubs could do better than the names you listed

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    I include Brentz right away.

    Using last year's Anibal Sabchez trade as a benchmark, Garza should cost one of Barnes or Webster, plus another minor leaguer like de la Cruz, Betts, Jacobs or Coyle.  The cost should be a little less because of Garza's recent injury history and the lack of any Omar Infante type heading back with.

     

    A top 50 prospect is probably a necessary inclusion, however...

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    I think it will take...

    Barnes, de la Cruz, and Coyle or Betts

    or

    Workman or Britton, Brentz and Coyle or Betts

    Although I do not rate these prospects too highly, I do not think trading them for 2 months of Garza is worth it.

    I'd offer:

    C Hernandez or J. de la Torre

    2 of: de la Cruz, Hazelbaker, Hassan, Ramos, Linares, or Jacobs

    2 of: Coyle, Betts, Butler, or Bard

    Probably won't be enough, but that's as high as I'd go.

    Sox4ever

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    3 or 4 players for Garza is way too much IMO. Unless its a TOTR starter, it seems useless to me. We have plenty middle to back of the rotation guys, which is what Garza is.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation


    I don't think the OP or the thread is about Garza at all.   They are just a mechanism for once again lambasting the Red Sox.  Thus all the comments about how lousy the current rotation is--pretty amazing, when you think about it, he didn't dump all over Buchholz.  Also a good thing Garza doesn't go to bat more often, or craze4sox would be telling us how he could--on those off days when he isn't pitching--fill in for Napoli at 1B or wherever. 

    Garza was pretty good when he pitched for Tampa, but they let him go for a reason.  His latest outing was terrific, but against Houston, the dregs of the AL.  His ERA has steadily risen since he got to Chicago, and his health has declined.  104 innings in 2012, and the jury is still out in 2013.  Plus, as southpaw777 and others have pointed out, Theo Epstein ain't going to be giving away any freebies.  Garza is going to cost too much.  May I also say I think Doubront for Garza would be just plain dumb.  Doubront throws good stuff and his control is better than Buchholz's at the same age. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    I don't think the OP or the thread is about Garza at all.  

    I don't think you know much about anything.

    They are just a mechanism for once again lambasting the Red Sox. 

    Who is lambasting any Sox players here?

    Thus all the comments about how lousy the current rotation is--pretty amazing

    Yes, Lester must amaze you and only you. (No, that is not lambasting Jon.)

    , when you think about it, he didn't dump all over Buchholz. 

    I see no need to "think about it".

    Also a good thing Garza doesn't go to bat more often, or craze4sox would be telling us how he could--on those off days when he isn't pitching--fill in for Napoli at 1B or wherever. 

    Or, fill in for you on your 365 "off days".

    Garza was pretty good when he pitched for Tampa, but they let him go for a reason. 

    Yeah, they couildn't afford even his arb raises. They got a hefty return for his value as well, but you must have missed that while slobbering over our great players.

    His latest outing was terrific, but against Houston, the dregs of the AL. 

    You love those one game sample sizes, but ignore Lester's 5 game sample size. Got it.

    His ERA has steadily risen since he got to Chicago, and his health has declined.  104 innings in 2012, and the jury is still out in 2013. 

    It was steadily rising in TB too, then dropped off his first year in Chicago. Using your clown logic, that means it will drop off his first year here too. Then he walks before it goes up.

    Plus, as southpaw777 and others have pointed out, Theo Epstein ain't going to be giving away any freebies. 

    Nobody said he was free.

    Garza is going to cost too much. 

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

    May I also say I think Doubront for Garza would be just plain dumb.  Doubront throws good stuff and his control is better than Buchholz's at the same age. 

    Ummm, Buch never walked more than 3.5 per 9 IP after he turned 24. How is 4.1 better than 3.5 (age 23), or 4.0 better than 3.5 (age 24)?

    BB/9

    Age    Buch  Doub

    22     4.0**    3.6 **

    23     4.9*      7.0**

    24     3.5*     4.0

    25      3.5      4.1*

    26      3.4*      x

    27     3.0         x

    28     3.1*       x

    * small sample size (under 92 IP)

    ** tiny sample size (under 25 IP)

     

    Get your facts straight, and stop using this Garza thread to lambast Buchholtz. We know your true motives, clown troll.

     

    Sox4ever

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    What if the cost for Garza is Carlos Marmol?

    Instead of prospects. Just sayin' ...

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    I pass on Garza at this time. Maybe if Buch was more injured then we know, I might throw Brandon Jacobs at Theo and hope he was high on him. Otherwise, no thanks for now on 3 quality prospects.

    Lets start with the fact he is so ugly to watch spitch. I mean pitch. Then there is the 10+ million. Not even sure he is worth his contract right now.

    He is coming off of serious arm issues. He has lost velocity on his fastball. Lowest of his career. And has a downward trend even this year. A WAR of just 0.3 this year in 7 starts. ERA of 4.25 in the national league. tERA of 4.88. With a low BABIP so far. Not to good. No pick compensation if he does not sign aswell.

    Lets just say I need to see better velocity and performance before he gets numerous quality prospects from me. I might be more open down the road.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to trouts' comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

     

    If you really want to contend you pay the price and go after Cliff Lee.

     

     



    Commit 25 Million a year, for several years to a guy in his late 30's when we have 3-4 guys in our system who can be as good to better than him going forward?!?!?!?

     

     

    I'm sorry I know Lee is good, but for how much longer and at what cost? and even then that doesn't gurantee victory (just ask texas, and those teams were better) 

    I only make that trade if I get significant money coming our way, or they accept fringe prospects. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    Lee is 34 years old. He will be 35 at the end of August.

    He is owed $25m for both 2014 and 2015

    He has a vesting option for 2016 based on innings pitched in 2015 (200) or 2014/2015 combined (400)

    He has a buy out clause for 2016 of $12.5

    [/QUOTE] There is no salary cap in baseball. Lee is the Ace we need, especially with the Buchholz situation looking very uncertain. The staff we have may very well get us to the playoffs but you need a stud to win games once we get there.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to trouts' comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to trouts' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    If you really want to contend you pay the price and go after Cliff Lee.

     

     

     



    Commit 25 Million a year, for several years to a guy in his late 30's when we have 3-4 guys in our system who can be as good to better than him going forward?!?!?!?

     

     

     

    I'm sorry I know Lee is good, but for how much longer and at what cost? and even then that doesn't gurantee victory (just ask texas, and those teams were better) 

    I only make that trade if I get significant money coming our way, or they accept fringe prospects. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

    Lee is 34 years old. He will be 35 at the end of August.

    He is owed $25m for both 2014 and 2015

    He has a vesting option for 2016 based on innings pitched in 2015 (200) or 2014/2015 combined (400)

    He has a buy out clause for 2016 of $12.5

     

    [/QUOTE] There is no salary cap in baseball. Lee is the Ace we need, especially with the Buchholz situation looking very uncertain. The staff we have may very well get us to the playoffs but you need a stud to win games once we get there.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    That's what Philly thought when they paid Lee a king's ransom.

    Tiny sample size, but he's 0-3 his last 3 playoff starts.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    Garza is a good pitcher. The question is what would it take in terms of prospects to get him ?   Marginal guys like Linares , Jacobs , Vinicio and Doyle are not going to get it done. We would have to go higher than that.  Is it worth it?  I would say no. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    Garza is a good pitcher. The question is what would it take in terms of prospects to get him ?   Marginal guys like Linares , Jacobs , Vinicio and Doyle are not going to get it done. We would have to go higher than that.  Is it worth it?  I would say no. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     



     

    Garin Cecchini looks like he has all the tools at the plate Middy doesn't.  A great eye/SO to BB ratio.  I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade our pitching by bringing in Garza and offering up Middy, especially if we can land M. Young.  Young and Garza would give us nice depth down the stretch.  I also feel it would allow us to find a taker for Drew. 

    Bogy and Cecchini both look like better bets than Middy offensively but thats not to say he can't get back on track. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    Garza would be a great addition, but at what cost?  He figures to be the best SP moved at the deadline.   Lee isn't going anywhere IMO.

     

    The potential widespread interest in Garza might price him out of the Sox plans.  I wouldn't worry about the rotation spot however.  That will sort itself out somehow..

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     



    Do you really see garza as a big upgrade over Lester (assuming he regains some composure) or Doubront?

     

    The bigger question is, do you think the cost to get him as a 2 month rental will outweigh that possible upgrade?

     



    The only SP we have with a better career WHIP than Garza isn't even in our rotation at the moment and thats Aceves. Doubront is all over the place with his control, how he has done as well as he has you would never know by watching him. 

    Like him or hate him Garza is better than most of our current staff any day of the week.  For those who consider him a 2 month rental?  S-REW that, try and re-sign the guy and trade either Dempster or Doub until another kid with better control comes out of the farm.  Garza is still only 29

    CAREER WHIP:

    Aceves 1.20

    Garza 1.28 career and 1.22 over the past six years

    Clay 1.30

    Jon 1.31

    Lackey 1.34

    Demp 1.42

    Doub 1.47

    I rest my case!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    Theos asking price is sky high. I have no issue with Garza except 1) hes a FA next year and theres no guarentee he will sign here. 2) the prospects they want for a 2 month rental, which is exactly what he is right now unless you can sign him to an extension and eliminate him reaching FA.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    Theos asking price is sky high. I have no issue with Garza except 1) hes a FA next year and theres no guarentee he will sign here. 2) the prospects they want for a 2 month rental, which is exactly what he is right now unless you can sign him to an extension and eliminate him reaching FA.



    Theo's best chance of helping his clubs future may take a big sign/trade involving Garza if he would agree.  He has been one of the most consistent pitchers in the majors six years running despite little run support and average record which is why I respect his game so much.    

    We need another SP that can throw a strike and stay ahead of a batter.  Watching our current staff is quite frustrating.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    The only SP we have with a better career WHIP than Garza isn't even in our rotation at the moment and thats Aceves. Doubront is all over the place with his control, how he has done as well as he has you would never know by watching him. 

    Like him or hate him Garza is better than most of our current staff any day of the week.  For those who consider him a 2 month rental?  S-REW that, try and re-sign the guy and trade either Dempster or Doub until another kid with better control comes out of the farm.  Garza is still only 29

    CAREER WHIP:

    Aceves 1.20

    Garza 1.28 career and 1.22 over the past six years

    Clay 1.30

    Jon 1.31

    Lackey 1.34

    Demp 1.42

    Doub 1.47

    I rest my case!

     

    I'm a big fan of WHIP as being equal to ERA in determining a pitcher's effectiveness, however, there is context involved in every stat.

    1) Garza has played in the NL recently. There is no DH in the NL.

        Garza's WHIP in NL: 1.219

        Garza's WHIP in AL: 1.315 (Yes, still better than Demp & Doub, but not the others.)

    2) Park factor. Garza has never pitched half his games in Fenway, although Wrigley is not a pitcher's park. The NL Central has not been known for offense the last few years either.

     

    Look, I'd love to have Garza on our team, but to me, the upgrade from Dempster to Garza or Doubront to Garza will not be close to the amount of value we have to give up to get him. If Lester or Buch are out for an extended time going forward that changes things a bit, but 2 month rentals are not worth giving up the farm over.

    Sox4ever

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    Theo's best chance of helping his clubs future may take a big sign/trade involving Garza if he would agree.  He has been one of the most consistent pitchers in the majors six years running despite little run support and average record which is why I respect his game so much.    

    We need another SP that can throw a strike and stay ahead of a batter.  Watching our current staff is quite frustrating.

    Garza has been very consistent, but he did only have 18 starts last year and only 8 this year, so far.

    BTW, Dempsters numbers with the Cubs:  3.74  1.318.

    Garza  with Cubs: 3.56  1.219- still better than Dempster, but not a wide differential, especially if you factor in 44 games started by Dempster vs 26 by Garza since the start of 2012. 

     

    Sox4ever

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Theo's best chance of helping his clubs future may take a big sign/trade involving Garza if he would agree.  He has been one of the most consistent pitchers in the majors six years running despite little run support and average record which is why I respect his game so much.    

    We need another SP that can throw a strike and stay ahead of a batter.  Watching our current staff is quite frustrating.

    Garza has been very consistent, but he did only have 18 starts last year and only 8 this year, so far.

    BTW, Dempsters numbers with the Cubs:  3.74  1.318.

    Garza  with Cubs: 3.56  1.219- still better than Dempster, but not a wide differential, especially if you factor in 44 games started by Dempster vs 26 by Garza since the start of 2012. 

     

    Sox4ever

     



    moon, it would be hard to argue Garza's success the past six years.  We really don't have many in the starting rotation like him, or that can go late in the game without falling apart.  You know I respect your opinion but a Matt Garza in the rotation and Young at utility could make us the team to beat.

    I cant remember if you predicted 80 or 82 wins for this team this season but regardless it's obvious now with a couple more moves/added depth we could be very hard to beat in the PS.  Guys like Dempster have absolutely no PS experience and can barely hang in our division.  Garza has been through these battles and knows how to approach/prepare for them.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: I still like Garza in our rotation

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Theo's best chance of helping his clubs future may take a big sign/trade involving Garza if he would agree.  He has been one of the most consistent pitchers in the majors six years running despite little run support and average record which is why I respect his game so much.    

    We need another SP that can throw a strike and stay ahead of a batter.  Watching our current staff is quite frustrating.

    Garza has been very consistent, but he did only have 18 starts last year and only 8 this year, so far.

    BTW, Dempsters numbers with the Cubs:  3.74  1.318.

    Garza  with Cubs: 3.56  1.219- still better than Dempster, but not a wide differential, especially if you factor in 44 games started by Dempster vs 26 by Garza since the start of 2012. 

     

    Sox4ever

     



    moon, it would be hard to argue Garza's success the past six years.  We really don't have many in the starting rotation like him, or that can go late in the game without falling apart.  You know I respect your opinion but a Matt Garza in the rotation and Young at utility could make us the team to beat.

    I cant remember if you predicted 80 or 82 wins for this team this season but regardless it's obvious now with a couple more moves/added depth we could be very hard to beat in the PS.  Guys like Dempster have absolutely no PS experience and can barely hang in our division.  Garza has been through these battles and knows how to approach/prepare for them.

     



    I predicted 84.

    I have said over and over that Garza would be nice to have. I am not saying he is a bad pitcher. All I am saying is you are comparing his numbers in the NL vs Sox pitchers who have pitched vs DHs, who have pitched half their games in Fenway, and who have faced tougher than normal offenses on their schedule over the years. Once you take that into account, the upgrade may not be as great as the numbers indicate they might be. Then, consider that Garza has missed a lot of time over this year and last and the cost of getting him, and it's not so clearly a good move.

    As for playoff experience, Garza has 5 starts- 4 in 2008 and 1 in 2010. He has a respectable 3.48 ERA and 1.290 WHIP in the small sample size of 31 IP. His one World Series start was 6 IP and 4 ER, including 3 HRs.

    Dempster has 2 playoff appearances, but only 1 start. (5.2 IP total with a 6.35 ERA and 1.941 WHIP in a tiny sample size. I'm not sure I'd call a 4 game started differential that big an advantage.

    Would I rather have a healthy Garza in a game 7 of a playoff series over Dempster, Doubront or Lester? Yes, I would, but at what cost? I just don't see the cost to get him as being worth the upgrade.

    As for getting Young as a utility player, I'd say yes, if the cost was not great, AND we would not use him as utility, but rather as the starting 3Bman with Drew being traded or sent to the utiltiy spot.

    I'd rather get Aramis Ramirez, but he will cost more.

     

     

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